General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Krusty on March 13, 2017, 11:19:06 AM
Title: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Krusty on March 13, 2017, 11:19:06 AM
Does HTC use calculations and weights to get a proper CoG or does it base the position of this off of historic documents and then fill in appropriate weights as it can?
I ask because I have always felt our Ta152 has been horribly unbalanced since the release of AH2 when several planes felt the effects of the code change. The Ta152 was far more capable in AH1 overall and had some major tail heaviness and instability after AH2 came around.
It's a very tail heavy design and this can throw it into unrecoverable tail slides and hurts its overall maneuverability. None of which was much of an issue in the real plane during WW2.
However, there is the NASM article where they were delving into the history of their captured airframe -- the only captured one, upon which all tests were run -- that showed the tail had been badly reconstructed and the H-stabs moved forward making it fly more tail heavily than it should have.
So my question is: Is HTC using the original NASM test material that was based on a rebuilt and non-factory-spec airframe? Is that why ours is so tail heavy when (from everything I have read) it shouldn't be? What did they use? There are a few things I could think of: HTC making an combination model based off how the weights are applied to the flight model, HTC using NASM test material, or HTC basing it off some Luftwaffe reports about where the CoG should be. I'm not sure which it is but it seems that the NASM tail heavy specimen might match our in-game version.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Zimme83 on March 13, 2017, 11:44:20 AM
All 190:s seems to bit tail heavy and the P-40 as well. I try to burn the aft tank first to move the CoG forward and it seems to work.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Zimme83 on March 13, 2017, 11:56:03 AM
Google found this:;
Quote
The National Air and Space Museum's Ta 152 is the only extant example of this fighter in the world today. NASM is also the only museum in the world that has preserved examples of the three major Fw 190 variants: the Fw 190F-8, the Fw 190D-9, and the Ta 152H-0...
In 1998 Museum restoration staff were treating deteriorated sections of the wooden aft fuselage, fin, rudder, and right elevator when they discovered several interesting items that offered tantalizing glimpses into the airplane's shadowy past ...
Extensive wood rot was found in where the horizontal stabilizer joins the vertical fin. The restoration staff speculated that during testing at Wright Field, pilots and engineers became concerned that the wooden tail may have been weakened by defective glues or sabotage. They strengthened the entire area with steel plate. However, this work may have compromised flight safety because it required moving the horizontal stabilizer forward several inches, exacerbating a tail-heavy condition already known to the Germans. The restoration specialist removed the steel plate and rebuilt the tail to the original German configuration.
It is hard to find any hard fact on the topic but it seems like the 152 indeed was a little too tail heavy and that the Germans tried to fix it it various ways.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Krusty on March 13, 2017, 01:28:09 PM
The initial designs were, and they corrected this a number of ways like adding weight (armor) to the engine area, moving the MW50 tank from behind the cockpit to the wing*, and some other things like shifting the wing further forward than on the Dora.
All of that basically kept the CoG comparable to other Fw190s (Doras, etc). Much like shifting the ETC rack forward on the A-8s helped counter out the slightly aft CoG. We don't see A-8s tail sliding all over the place in Aces High.
I don't think the P-40s are terribly tail heavy. They're still able to pull off a lot of moves without tail sliding. They did by practice drain their rear most tank first and when you do the same you rarely have problems. Much like our P-51s aux aft fuse tanks. The Ta152, even with almost no fuel in any of the tanks, is still really tail heavy.
* = more to it than that, but the end result benefited the CoG.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: FLS on March 13, 2017, 03:48:36 PM
You may be noticing the relatively high adverse yaw of the Ta-152, due to the high aspect ratio wing.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: bustr on March 13, 2017, 04:30:57 PM
How does the wing construction cause the yaw??
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Krusty on March 13, 2017, 05:07:32 PM
It's not just adverse yaw, though I have heard that comment before. The wings aren't THAT much bigger than the 190D. It was closer to a 190D with a slower roll rate than what we have, I'd say. The tail heaviness shows itself in many instances including loops, immelmans, tight but stable turns where you're not rolling. It's a major detriment. I remember the "good old days" of AH1 where it was much more of a fighter than it is now. I'm not saying AH1's model was correct -- it may have been a place holder or something -- but I don't believe what we have now is accurate.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Zimme83 on March 13, 2017, 05:22:50 PM
I agree that its a bit too tail heavy, that tail sliding stall is no joke. But i think it will be hard to find any accurate data on the topic. Having it "rebalanced" so that it is similar to the Dora would not be a bad idea though.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Zoney on March 13, 2017, 05:35:09 PM
I'm going to have to try that there TA152. How are the guns?
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: FLS on March 13, 2017, 05:37:44 PM
Adverse yaw when rolling is normal. A longer narrower wing yaws more. Yaw creates a difference in angle of attack between the wings so the higher AOA wing will stall first. If you can keep the ball centered the aircraft won't stall as much.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Zimme83 on March 13, 2017, 05:38:38 PM
I think they are fine, one had a cold but he is better now.
Does HTC use calculations and weights to get a proper CoG or does it base the position of this off of historic documents and then fill in appropriate weights as it can?
I ask because I have always felt our Ta152 has been horribly unbalanced since the release of AH2 when several planes felt the effects of the code change. The Ta152 was far more capable in AH1 overall and had some major tail heaviness and instability after AH2 came around.
It's a very tail heavy design and this can throw it into unrecoverable tail slides and hurts its overall maneuverability. None of which was much of an issue in the real plane during WW2.
However, there is the NASM article where they were delving into the history of their captured airframe -- the only captured one, upon which all tests were run -- that showed the tail had been badly reconstructed and the H-stabs moved forward making it fly more tail heavily than it should have.
So my question is: Is HTC using the original NASM test material that was based on a rebuilt and non-factory-spec airframe? Is that why ours is so tail heavy when (from everything I have read) it shouldn't be? What did they use? There are a few things I could think of: HTC making an combination model based off how the weights are applied to the flight model, HTC using NASM test material, or HTC basing it off some Luftwaffe reports about where the CoG should be. I'm not sure which it is but it seems that the NASM tail heavy specimen might match our in-game version.
How do you determine "Tail heaviness"? This is a serious question. Folks in game use terms in a manner that does not match their use in the real world.
Aircraft loaded with an aft center of gravity do some pretty strange things as I well know but tail heavy is not how I would describe it.
A film or more precise description of what you are trying to convey would help me understand.
I seriously doubt the AH FM actually applies weight of various components/fuel/ammo at their appropriate fuselage station for center of gravity purposes.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: colmbo on March 13, 2017, 10:42:03 PM
It's the issue of how far from the CG the aileron is, the farther out the aileron the more yaw force it will have all other things being equal.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Zimme83 on March 14, 2017, 03:17:58 AM
If you for ex rolls to the right, the left aileron is creating more lift than the right and thus more drag. This means that the drag will be asymmetric and creates a yaw motion. Normally this is countered by applying a bit of rudder. But to me it seems like this is not modeled in the game.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Krusty on March 14, 2017, 09:40:17 AM
I seriously doubt the AH FM actually applies weight of various components/fuel/ammo at their appropriate fuselage station for center of gravity purposes.
It does. The question is how that plays into the CoG. Are they tailoring those weights to the CoG, or are they putting them in and seeing where the CoG computes out to?
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: bustr on March 14, 2017, 11:47:27 AM
If Hitech models the effect of weight in flight, why would he not model the effect on CG by burning off fuel tanks and dropping ord? It seems for this conversation to develop further, you will need an affirmation from the man that his flight model includes the effect of fuel tank burn and ord against outcomes from CG.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: ACE on March 14, 2017, 12:31:28 PM
Please make my 152 more deadly than it already is :)
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Krusty on March 15, 2017, 07:34:28 AM
If Hitech models the effect of weight in flight, why would he not model the effect on CG by burning off fuel tanks and dropping ord? It seems for this conversation to develop further, you will need an affirmation from the man that his flight model includes the effect of fuel tank burn and ord against outcomes from CG.
Fuel tankage DOES affect CoG in AH. You can even use it to help prevent hard stalls in some aircraft by controlling your fuel drain manually.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Vraciu on March 15, 2017, 09:54:36 AM
If Hitech models the effect of weight in flight, why would he not model the effect on CG by burning off fuel tanks and dropping ord? It seems for this conversation to develop further, you will need an affirmation from the man that his flight model includes the effect of fuel tank burn and ord against outcomes from CG.
It's effect is more noticeable in different rides because of the size and location of fuel tanks. With the 152 with 75% fuel which is probably the most anyone takes (besides me) the aft tank is already down near a quarter full so that weight isn't substantial. Burning the wing tanks you will feel a huge difference if you don't burn them evenly...it will struggle to the side that is heavier.
Probably the most noticeable as far as overall performance in the burning of fuel tank properly IMO is the ME262.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Krusty on March 15, 2017, 11:36:14 AM
Probably the most noticeable as far as overall performance in the burning of fuel tank properly IMO is the ME262.
Just a few others with noticable effects
FW190A aux and aft tanks -- pulling out of a dive bomb with full aft tank can rip your wings off, with an empty one no problems
P-51 aux tank -- turning tight with that aux tank filled is a recipe to spin into the turn. Really need to burn that off before doing any kind of turning
P-40s -- aux/aft fuse tank highly recommended you burn that first before doing any serious maneuvering -- will make you more unstable in tight turns but not as bad as P-51.
F4U1 - leave about 1/3 of your fuel in one wing tank and then empty the other, manually switch to fuse tank. Will noticably improve your stall handling, reducing wing drop.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Dawger on March 15, 2017, 01:12:24 PM
FW190A aux and aft tanks -- pulling out of a dive bomb with full aft tank can rip your wings off, with an empty one no problems
P-51 aux tank -- turning tight with that aux tank filled is a recipe to spin into the turn. Really need to burn that off before doing any kind of turning
P-40s -- aux/aft fuse tank highly recommended you burn that first before doing any serious maneuvering -- will make you more unstable in tight turns but not as bad as P-51.
F4U1 - leave about 1/3 of your fuel in one wing tank and then empty the other, manually switch to fuse tank. Will noticably improve your stall handling, reducing wing drop.
Comparing results at different weights doesn't necessarily tell you that the FM is calculating center of gravity according to the fuselage station of the fuel consumed. The weight difference alone could be the performance difference you "feel". You need to compare handling at identical weight but with different fuel distribution to really figure out if what you think is happening is happening.
I ran a quick test in a private arena with 10 times fuel burn. There appears to be no effect on pitch burning the forward tank in the Ta-152 with Aft full. There is a minor effect burning a wing tank on roll but it is extremely minor.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Krusty on March 15, 2017, 01:36:53 PM
I'm not talking weight. Your test is flawed. They do affect balance. They have always affected balance. Bombs also affect CoG. Even the ETC rack on Fw190As have weight and that plays into the CoG balance of the aircraft.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Dawger on March 15, 2017, 01:40:44 PM
I'm not talking weight. Your test is flawed. They do affect balance. They have always affected balance. Bombs also affect CoG. Even the ETC rack on Fw190As have weight and that plays into the CoG balance of the aircraft.
If the tanks affected balance burning the forward tank without touching power or trim as in my video should make the aircraft pitch up. It doesn't pitch up.
It does appear wing tanks do affect roll to a minor degree.
It will be a awhile before the video finishes uploading but its pretty obvious.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Zimme83 on March 15, 2017, 01:45:05 PM
Did you fly on combat trim?
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Dawger on March 15, 2017, 01:46:30 PM
Are you assuming the Ta-152 would need trimming? :) The Forward tank is on the CG. The Aft tank is next to it under the pilot's seat.
As far as I know all weight changes are calculated dynamically and applied to the CG along with the current forces.
If you read the thread, you would find that folks are positing that the 190 stability improves by burning the aft tank. The opposite would be that the stability would degrade if the aft tank were full and the forward empty.
That position implies a center of gravity change when burning the aft tank. A dynamic center of gravity due to fuel burn implies a change in the pitch trim of the aircraft. The video clearly shows there is no change in the pitch trim of the aircraft when fuel is burned from the forward tank.
In the real airplane (Dora model) there is a definite need to manage fuel balance. The correct sequence is burn rear tank before front tank for center of gravity reasons.
In every real world airplane I have ever flown, even fuel tanks with a centroid on the center of gravity require adjustment of pitch trim with fuel burn. This is because the center of gravity is a POINT and fuel tanks are not POINTS.
So if Aces High is calculating center of gravity dynamically AND modeling actual fuel tank fuselage stations one would expect a large trim change burning fuel from either forward or center tank in the 190 series
In Aces High there is no pitch trim change burning either tank. That clearly means that either C of G is not calculated dynamically or tanks are not modeled at the fuselage station or both. Most likely it is both.
Assumptions otherwise, despite evidence to the contrary, are erroneous.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: MiloMorai on March 16, 2017, 08:39:13 AM
Quote
However, there is the NASM article where they were delving into the history of their captured airframe -- the only captured one, upon which all tests were run -- that showed the tail had been badly reconstructed and the H-stabs moved forward making it fly more tail heavily than it should have.
As can be seen there is no forward movement of the stab position between the 'D' and 'H'. I can see no difference in the stab position even with the 'A'.
(http://i59.tinypic.com/2ro5f6r.jpg)
Focke-Wulf also designed an enlarged stab/elevator for the 'H' to help with the tail heaviness.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: hitech on March 16, 2017, 09:07:17 AM
The CG is dynamically calculated as gas is consumed, bullets shot, bombs dropped ...
HiTech
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Mister Fork on March 16, 2017, 09:09:13 AM
The CG is dynamically calculated as gas is consumed, bullets shot, bombs dropped ...
HiTech
Then why doesn't it show a pitch trim change in Dawger's example? CG certainly changes trim --- you can lean forward in a Cessna 152 and it will pitch down slightly.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Dawger on March 16, 2017, 01:21:28 PM
The CG is dynamically calculated as gas is consumed, bullets shot, bombs dropped ...
HiTech
If this is the case, then the fuel tanks are calculating exactly on the Center of Gravity at all times in the TA-152 that i flew because there is no trim change in the aircraft with fuel burn out of the forward or aft tank.
I did see a trim change burning left and right wing tanks in the TA-152 so one can assume that there is, a calculation being performed for lateral weight changes and the effect on roll moment.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Zimme83 on March 16, 2017, 01:47:18 PM
In every real world airplane I have ever flown, even fuel tanks with a centroid on the center of gravity require adjustment of pitch trim with fuel burn. This is because the center of gravity is a POINT and fuel tanks are not POINTS.
Not really, whats matter is the center of gravity of the fuel tank, and that is a POINT...
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: JunkyII on March 16, 2017, 02:29:52 PM
If this is the case, then the fuel tanks are calculating exactly on the Center of Gravity at all times in the TA-152 that i flew because there is no trim change in the aircraft with fuel burn out of the forward or aft tank.
I did see a trim change burning left and right wing tanks in the TA-152 so one can assume that there is, a calculation being performed for lateral weight changes and the effect on roll moment.
I didn't watch your video (doesn't work for some reason) but how did you test forward vs aft tank and CG??
Did you test with the guns empty??? I feel like that is why you don't notice the nose being lighter as much.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: FLS on March 16, 2017, 03:49:13 PM
Then why doesn't it show a pitch trim change in Dawger's example? CG certainly changes trim --- you can lean forward in a Cessna 152 and it will pitch down slightly.
Maybe because the Cessna is a 1,600 lb airplane instead of 10,000 lbs and the 200 lb pilot already sits in front of the CG?
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Dawger on March 16, 2017, 05:17:30 PM
Not really, whats matter is the center of gravity of the fuel tank, and that is a POINT...
I have news for you.
Fuel is liquid.
While we must, for simplicity sake, treat the fuel tank as a single point (usually expressed in inches aft of datum or fuselage station) the reality is that fuel, being a liquid, does not behave as a point force on the aircraft.
Angle of attack will change the center of gravity as the fuel moves in the tank.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Dawger on March 16, 2017, 05:26:31 PM
The evidence indicates that the Ta-152 forward fuel tank is on the CG.
Maybe because the Cessna is a 1,600 lb airplane instead of 10,000 lbs and the 200 lb pilot already sits in front of the CG?
Or maybe its not.
You can feel a 120 lb flight attendant walking down the cabin in a 100,000 jet (in the flight controls, Anything else might be inappropriate). We could always tell when the boss was awake in the back by the watching the trim move. It amazed him that the flight attendant seemed to have some supernatural power.
I used to trim the Beech 18 nose down so I could walk to the back to get my lunch and still be within 100 feet of my altitude and that is a 10,500 airplane.
Real airplanes require constant trim in the pitch axis.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Zimme83 on March 16, 2017, 05:36:29 PM
While we must, for simplicity sake, treat the fuel tank as a single point (usually expressed in inches aft of datum or fuselage station) the reality is that fuel, being a liquid, does not behave as a point force on the aircraft.
Angle of attack will change the center of gravity as the fuel moves in the tank.
The TA had a rubber bladder inside the fuel tank which would prevent the fuel from moving around...
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: FLS on March 16, 2017, 06:22:00 PM
You can feel a 120 lb flight attendant walking down the cabin in a 100,000 jet (in the flight controls, Anything else might be inappropriate). We could always tell when the boss was awake in the back by the watching the trim move. It amazed him that the flight attendant seemed to have some supernatural power.
I used to trim the Beech 18 nose down so I could walk to the back to get my lunch and still be within 100 feet of my altitude and that is a 10,500 airplane.
Real airplanes require constant trim in the pitch axis.
I'm seeing a difference in lever arm compared to the Ta-152 fuel tank sitting on the CG.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: colmbo on March 16, 2017, 07:40:11 PM
Maybe because the Cessna is a 1,600 lb airplane instead of 10,000 lbs and the 200 lb pilot already sits in front of the CG?
Because of some of your responses I have to ask...are you a pilot? have you ever flown an airplane?
It doesn't matter where the pilot sits, the aircraft is trimmed....the pilot leaning forward changes the CG.
FYI in the Cessna 152 the arm for the passenger seats is 39 inches aft of datum, the permissible CG range is 31-36.5 inches aft of datum....the seats are behind the CG.
The 200 pound pilot was a 120 pound pilot moving only his upper body...very tiny change in CG position yet there was a change in aircraft trim.
Flying the B-24 it was very noticeable when someone went to the tail....that's a 200 pound passenger and a 65000 pound airplane.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: colmbo on March 16, 2017, 07:41:58 PM
Because of some of your responses I have to ask...are you a pilot? have you ever flown an airplane?
It doesn't matter where the pilot sits, the aircraft is trimmed....the pilot leaning forward changes the CG.
FYI in the Cessna 152 the arm for the passenger seats is 39 inches aft of datum, the permissible CG range is 31-36.5 inches aft of datum....the seats are behind the CG.
The 200 pound pilot was a 120 pound pilot moving only his upper body...very tiny change in CG position yet there was a change in aircraft trim.
Flying the B-24 it was very noticeable when someone went to the tail....that's a 200 pound passenger and a 65000 pound airplane.
Hitech says it's modeled so if it's wrong how much is it off and in which direction should the trim change?
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Zimme83 on March 17, 2017, 04:14:19 AM
Ta 152: (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-F8JxuptYB5w/U4uXtIFHyjI/AAAAAAAADRM/Tld7wz77n-o/s1600/Untitled-8.jpg)
And the Dora: (http://i.imgur.com/WQYEbJg.jpg)
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Vraciu on March 17, 2017, 07:35:04 AM
The evidence indicates that the Ta-152 forward fuel tank is on the CG.
Maybe because the Cessna is a 1,600 lb airplane instead of 10,000 lbs and the 200 lb pilot already sits in front of the CG?
All airplane's experience CG shifts based on occupant movement. After the US Airways Express Beech 1900 crash the entire industry in the USA went through a major change in how Weight and Balance is calculated. Our envelopes and how they're utilized changed as did standard weights for pax and bags.
Long story short is we now accommodate passenger movement in ways we didn't before. Our CG envelope for average weights got narrower as a result with few, if any, exceptions.
If a 50,000+ lb airplane is be affected you can see that a single engine piston fighter will be as well.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Vraciu on March 17, 2017, 07:45:52 AM
The TA had a rubber bladder inside the fuel tank which would prevent the fuel from moving around...
That's simply not the case. It is going to move somewhat. The only way to mitigate fuel movement is via baffles and such. In large aircraft this is standard otherwise turning would be a rather interesting event.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Vraciu on March 17, 2017, 07:47:37 AM
That's simply not the case. It is going to move somewhat. The only way to mitigate fuel movement is via baffles and such. In large aircraft this is standard otherwise turning would be a rather interesting event.
In a straight and level flight in the MA environment there will be no movements of the fuel so that would not affect the 'test'
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Vraciu on March 17, 2017, 08:23:45 AM
In a straight and level flight in the MA environment there will be no movements of the fuel so that would not affect the 'test'
Impossible. The fuel will move toward the lowest point in the tank. Unless the tank is perfectly symmetrical (not possible with a bladder, and difficult at best with a wet cell) it will shift.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: FLS on March 17, 2017, 09:36:27 AM
All airplane's experience CG shifts based on occupant movement. After the US Airways Express Beech 1900 crash the entire industry in the USA went through a major change in how Weight and Balance is calculated. Our envelopes and how they're utilized changed as did standard weights for pax and bags.
Long story short is we now accommodate passenger movement in ways we didn't before. Our CG envelope for average weights got narrower as a result with few, if any, exceptions.
If a 50,000+ lb airplane is be affected you can see that a single engine piston fighter will be as well.
I'm sure Hitech kept that in mind when he considered passenger movement on the Ta-152.
The next complaint will concern incorrect trim change when the paratroopers jump out of the C-47. :D
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: AAIK on March 17, 2017, 01:16:46 PM
Is that a 190 with an mk103 as an optional loadout?
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Zimme83 on March 17, 2017, 01:56:16 PM
3 of them...
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Krusty on March 17, 2017, 02:11:24 PM
The question is not "does HTC dynamically compute weight shifting during flight" -- we know they do. The quest is: The base underlying model of the Ta-152... Was it based off the bad NASM testing reports? Or was it based off Luftwaffe factory documents? Does it take the proper tail balance into account or is it based on a root setup that is in error because it was testing based on a poor quality field repair?
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Zimme83 on March 17, 2017, 02:24:33 PM
Part of the problem is that the stall itself probably isnt modeled correct. For a good reason, simulating the air flow around the wings when the aircraft is stalling would prob require a lot of computing power...
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Dawger on March 17, 2017, 05:30:56 PM
Part of the problem is that the stall itself probably isnt modeled correct. For a good reason, simulating the air flow around the wings when the aircraft is stalling would prob require a lot of computing power...
It's not just the stall. Which, by the way, they actually model with airflow over the wings in hundreds of points. It's pre-stall, it's post-stall, it's when you're in a hammerhead, and even back before in-flight spawn were given forward speed, you would fall down and have to turn on engine, pull gear up, and nose up. The only plane that couldn't do this was the Ta152. No matter what your loadout you would drop the tail instead of the nose. You could never recover and would plow into the earth while everyone else recovered and flew off. How HTC has it is severely tail heavy, and that throws the handling off when turn fighting like a P-39 does. It adds instability that otherwise wouldn't show up.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: Zimme83 on March 18, 2017, 01:30:19 PM
Have flown the TA offline now to try its flying characteristics and its obvious that the yaw motion in rolls are significant. It need a lot of work with the rudder to fly clean. I suspect that it can be a factor to its violent stall.
Title: Re: Does HTC calculate CoG or use NASM documents for the Ta152?
Post by: ACE on March 19, 2017, 08:01:47 AM
I don't stall her much anymore. But when I do it's from doing to much at one time. That's the best way to describe it. If you need to roll pull back on stick and use rudder or throttle you need to do one at a time. If you do all 3 at once the tail will fall out of the sky.