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Special Events Forums => Scenario General => Topic started by: Nefarious on March 21, 2017, 10:41:59 AM

Title: It's coming this August...
Post by: Nefarious on March 21, 2017, 10:41:59 AM
Official announcement coming soon... Until then:

(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/ralphmunnich/Mobile%20Uploads/keep-calm-and-carry-on.png) (http://s205.photobucket.com/user/ralphmunnich/media/Mobile%20Uploads/keep-calm-and-carry-on.png.html)
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Krusty on March 21, 2017, 10:57:14 AM
I would STRONGLY re-iterate all the past posts I've made with stats, facts, numbers, and history behind them and request once again that the Ju-88 has no place being in the BoB scenario. Especially not when we have the proper He-111 to use instead of the 1942-era Ju-88 that was the primary model used in the invasion of Russia.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Bruv119 on March 21, 2017, 11:30:10 AM
I would STRONGLY re-iterate all the past posts I've made with stats, facts, numbers, and history behind them and request once again that the Ju-88 has no place being in the BoB scenario. Especially not when we have the proper He-111 to use instead of the 1942-era Ju-88 that was the primary model used in the invasion of Russia.

+1  and lets also remove the 110's or limit them to the first 3 hours segment along with the stukas.  whilst we are at it.   

I don't want to be engaging BnZ 110s in the middle of a 109 vs Hurri spit furball over London. 
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: puller on March 21, 2017, 12:07:09 PM
+1  and lets also remove the 110's or limit them to the first 3 hours segment along with the stukas.  whilst we are at it.   

I don't want to be engaging BnZ 110s in the middle of a 109 vs Hurri spit furball over London. 

My 109s arent gonna let u live long enough to worry about all that   :devil
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: JimmyD3 on March 21, 2017, 12:16:49 PM
My 109s arent gonna let u live long enough to worry about all that   :devil

 :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: ROC on March 21, 2017, 12:39:43 PM
Ahhh this is going to be a great one!  Axis team already coming together.  This is going to be built like the original one, tight and non stop.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: JunkyII on March 21, 2017, 12:55:49 PM
Dibs Spit :D
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Bruv119 on March 21, 2017, 01:16:17 PM
Dibs Spit :D

fight you for them!   
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Owlblink on March 21, 2017, 01:23:12 PM
Packing my bags for vacation in New Ger... errr Britain.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-t_CyqnC8ktU/VZ-PUTZX-qI/AAAAAAAAM6A/O368hcs87lQ/s1600/664702017_o.jpg)
Yes, I always come with a 109 and a few schwarms  :noid

 :cheers:
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Krusty on March 21, 2017, 02:51:13 PM
+1  and lets also remove the 110's or limit them to the first 3 hours segment along with the stukas.  whilst we are at it.   

I don't want to be engaging BnZ 110s in the middle of a 109 vs Hurri spit furball over London.

Stukas I'd agree. They have a token role regardless. 110s actually have a legitimate reason to be there in small numbers. Their BnZ nature is really just because they can't turn with the enemy. That and he heavy weapons loadout allows them to take spray shots as they blow past, but overall they were historically a part of it. More so than most BOB scenarios we have. We just often have different rules of engagement and aren't hampered by ignorance dictating how they should fight.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: BFOOT1 on March 21, 2017, 02:51:37 PM
Oh crap, 109 E's, or to fly for 601 or 609 Squadron  :bhead

Someone help me, and yes sheep can be used as an incentive  :cheers:
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Bruv119 on March 21, 2017, 03:05:30 PM
Oh crap, 109 E's, or to fly for 601 or 609 Squadron  :bhead

Someone help me, and yes sheep can be used as an incentive  :cheers:

everyone knows all the best sheep live in Wales and to get them you will need to be this side of the channel because any invasion attempt will be swiftly dealt with by a supermarine or the Hawker.   
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Bruv119 on March 21, 2017, 03:07:46 PM
Stukas I'd agree. They have a token role regardless. 110s actually have a legitimate reason to be there in small numbers. Their BnZ nature is really just because they can't turn with the enemy. That and he heavy weapons loadout allows them to take spray shots as they blow past, but overall they were historically a part of it. More so than most BOB scenarios we have. We just often have different rules of engagement and aren't hampered by ignorance dictating how they should fight.

Whilst they were there they were quickly withdrawn from the battle having been shot down and the Luftwaffe not having enough of them.   I think by the 3rd and 4th segments they should be gone.     

As we are going for immersion having something performing well above it's station detracts from the historical facts. 

If they are included maybe a look at lowering their overall lives or having minimal seats available.   
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Krusty on March 21, 2017, 03:24:55 PM
The 110 doesn't compare to the Ju88.

It doesn't perform above the most common versions. The hp boost was minor and nearly insignficant. The Ju-88 we have carried thousands of pounds more bombs and had longer wings, 50% more defensive guns, and is over 20mph faster than the majority of bombers during the BoB. It turns what should be a "defend the bombers" setup to "the bombers will always get through, drop their load, and you will never catch them after the initial merge" -- not even slightly similar to a small limited number of 110s being used for BnZ.

EDIT: I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of restrictions on the 110C use such as dictating that it must be used for bomber escort or something like that, but then the same thing should be applied to the spitfires and hurricanes. They shouldn't take off until they had definitive contact and had to climb up to engage targets. As it stands the 100 octane update has made them mini-monsters when used unhistorically... you know... kind of like how the use of the 110c makes it more effective than how it was in the real BOB?
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: KCDitto on March 21, 2017, 08:35:19 PM
 :salute

Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: horble on March 21, 2017, 08:50:00 PM
Noooo, not in august that's the busiest time of year at work!
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Guppy35 on March 21, 2017, 10:21:04 PM
602 Squadron Spitfire I's please.

(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/602%20Squadron/Spitfire%20IaBoB_zpse62kl6vj.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/602%20Squadron/Spitfire%20IaBoB_zpse62kl6vj.jpg.html)
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Owlblink on March 22, 2017, 01:36:01 PM
The 110 doesn't compare to the Ju88.

EDIT: I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of restrictions on the 110C use such as dictating that it must be used for bomber escort or something like that, but then the same thing should be applied to the spitfires and hurricanes. They shouldn't take off until they had definitive contact and had to climb up to engage targets. As it stands the 100 octane update has made them mini-monsters when used unhistorically... you know... kind of like how the use of the 110c makes it more effective than how it was in the real BOB?

Exactly!
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Kanth on March 22, 2017, 01:42:34 PM

Booooo  Hissssss!!!   :devil

+1  and lets also remove the 110's or limit them to the first 3 hours segment along with the stukas.  whilst we are at it.   

I don't want to be engaging BnZ 110s in the middle of a 109 vs Hurri spit furball over London.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Bruv119 on March 22, 2017, 02:05:56 PM
I can handle 3x109's at a time left handed but throw in a high speed pass by a tough hitting 110 in the middle of a stall buzzing turn with what might aswell be un-limited ammo in this setup and it's just not cricket. 

I just think from all the books I've read on the subject not many times do I hear how the 110 made the difference and won all of the dogfights with many oak leaves and iron crosses dished out to all of the multiple kill aces in the awesome zerstorer.    :bolt:

Anyway nuff said on this personal vendetta.   I'll kill them all the same.  :D
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Zoney on March 22, 2017, 03:17:52 PM
I can handle 3x109's at a time left handed


Including if one of them is Joachim ?
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Bruv119 on March 22, 2017, 03:41:26 PM
yea jo couldnt fly an early war plane for toffee.  but maybe just 1vs1  right handed   :ahand
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: JunkyII on March 22, 2017, 08:40:44 PM
Dibs a Hurri :rock :rock :rock
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Devil 505 on March 22, 2017, 10:10:27 PM
August can't get here soon enough...

(http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/2/9/8/0/6/webimg/664702056_o.jpg)



I doubt the June scenario will have anywhere this kind of enthusiasm when it's announced. It will probably be something retarded with B-29's.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: HB555 on March 22, 2017, 10:33:07 PM
August can't get here soon enough...

(http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/2/9/8/0/6/webimg/664702056_o.jpg)



I doubt the June scenario will have anywhere this kind of enthusiasm when it's announced. It will probably be something retarded with B-29's.

At 35K.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Sloehand on March 23, 2017, 04:42:06 AM
I can handle 3x109's at a time left handed but throw in a high speed pass by a tough hitting 110 in the middle of a stall buzzing turn with what might aswell be un-limited ammo in this setup and it's just not cricket. 

I just think from all the books I've read on the subject not many times do I hear how the 110 made the difference and won all of the dogfights with many oak leaves and iron crosses dished out to all of the multiple kill aces in the awesome zerstorer.    :bolt:

Anyway nuff said on this personal vendetta.   I'll kill them all the same.  :D

LOL Bruv unhappy and {mildly} whining that he might get swamped by an (uber?) bf110c in a melee?  Would bring tears of joy to my eyes, and a sense of proper retribution to the universe.  :rock
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Bruv119 on March 23, 2017, 04:53:09 AM
 :rofl
 
just making sure the designers know that the 110 is a valid concern regarding everyones historical immersion.

After the ju88s  are completely removed.   :aok
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: FBDragon on March 23, 2017, 10:30:03 PM
 :x :x :x :x :x :cheers: :cheers: is it time yet!!!!!! My 109 engine is warming up now!!!! :cheers:
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Guppy35 on March 24, 2017, 10:04:19 PM
:x :x :x :x :x :cheers: :cheers: is it time yet!!!!!! My 109 engine is warming up now!!!! :cheers:

Ya think? :)

(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Battle%20of%20Britain/FBDragonJG26_zpsb169jzdk.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/Battle%20of%20Britain/FBDragonJG26_zpsb169jzdk.jpg.html)
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Crash Orange on March 25, 2017, 04:57:16 AM
I can handle 3x109's at a time left handed but throw in a high speed pass by a tough hitting 110 in the middle of a stall buzzing turn with what might aswell be un-limited ammo in this setup and it's just not cricket. 

I just think from all the books I've read on the subject not many times do I hear how the 110 made the difference and won all of the dogfights with many oak leaves and iron crosses dished out to all of the multiple kill aces in the awesome zerstorer.    :bolt:

Anyway nuff said on this personal vendetta.   I'll kill them all the same.  :D

Just out of curiosity, what do you think is responsible for the difference in the game? Is it a flight model issue, or did the LW actually have a decent plane but lousy doctrine? Or is it one of those cases where tens of thousands of hours of in-game experience gives us insight into the game version far beyond what anyone had in the RL one and that makes more difference in this plane than some others? I don't fly the EW plane set enough to know much about it in the game.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Drano on March 25, 2017, 08:42:33 AM
I've been flying scenarios since way back in the AW days. Ran BoB a few times there too. Over all the years and I don't know how many times we've run BoB I don't think the RAF has EVER won! So I'd think something needs tweaking.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Vudu15 on March 25, 2017, 09:00:39 AM
I could see the exclusion of the later 88s but this business about the 110s will need to be looked at closely. As they were there, and just because they "may" tag you in a turn fight isint good enough. By that logic we should ban you as an unfair advantage...Kidding of course about banning you.

Sent from my XT1058 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Drano on March 25, 2017, 10:42:22 AM
They were there, that's a given. But in the real battle they were nothing short of target drones achieving next to no success and were withdrawn because of it.

Some tweak to make them more target drone-ish. Require full fuel load to increase weight? I dunno. It just ain't right. Like the 88s we've always had. They're so much faster than anything else that might intercept them they just might as well be B29s.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Vudu15 on March 25, 2017, 12:09:31 PM
We need some Do17s lol

Sent from my XT1058 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Devil 505 on March 25, 2017, 12:24:02 PM
They were there, that's a given. But in the real battle they were nothing short of target drones achieving next to no success and were withdrawn because of it.

Some tweak to make them more target drone-ish. Require full fuel load to increase weight? I dunno. It just ain't right. Like the 88s we've always had. They're so much faster than anything else that might intercept them they just might as well be B29s.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

The main issue concerning the 110 during the Battle of Britain was the doctrine of close escort more than any actual performance disparity. The mission parameters put the 110 in a position it was ill-suited to recover from. The 110 saw more success when it was in a position to hunt freely - which were rare occasions at the time.

I'd say the a good analogy is just how poorly Hurricanes fared versus 109's in pure dogfights. A change in tactics to concentrate the Hurricanes on bombers saw their combat record improve.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Bruv119 on March 25, 2017, 01:01:19 PM
i believe the version we have is running uprated engines / fuel so is faster than it should be greatly upsetting the delicate balance.
 
the spitfire should have no problems catching it in a dive but not so in AH.  it surely would have won the battle single handed!

because we can split the 12 hours up onto segments i dont think it is much of an ask to limit it towards the end.  guys assigned to it can just form another 109 gruppen.  with all the crying axis do around here getting planesets stripped back to give themselves a chance i reckon its time allies got one.   :devil
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Devil 505 on March 25, 2017, 01:26:34 PM
i believe the version we have is running uprated engines / fuel so is faster than it should be greatly upsetting the delicate balance.
 
the spitfire should have no problems catching it in a dive but not so in AH.  it surely would have won the battle single handed!

because we can split the 12 hours up onto segments i dont think it is much of an ask to limit it towards the end.  guys assigned to it can just form another 109 gruppen.  with all the crying axis do around here getting planesets stripped back to give themselves a chance i reckon its time allies got one.   :devil

Yes, our 110C-4/B is has the uprated engine, but it also has the bomb rack permanently fixed so there is a significant drag and weight penalty attached.


As for a segmented battle, I hate this idea. The entire purpose of having a 12 hour scenario is to represent the reality of dawn-to-dusk operations in a single day.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Owlblink on March 25, 2017, 01:27:45 PM
i believe the version we have is running uprated engines / fuel so is faster than it should be greatly upsetting the delicate balance.
 
the spitfire should have no problems catching it in a dive but not so in AH.  it surely would have won the battle single handed!

because we can split the 12 hours up onto segments i dont think it is much of an ask to limit it towards the end.  guys assigned to it can just form another 109 gruppen.  with all the crying axis do around here getting planesets stripped back to give themselves a chance i reckon its time allies got one.   :devil

I can understand the idea of limiting them to the earlier segments so I would not argue against it or to disable them reupping after a specific time period in the event.

However… sooooo many scenarios turned out often favor the allies in point scoring systems and bobers, etc. so the "allies get one" claim beyond the BoB historical performance is nill.

Also, early warbirds tend to draw out more axis pilots, and more of the better sticks. That also has a factor.

Third, I question the claim a spit 1 could out accelerate a 110 in a dive on a historical front due to spitfire engine limitations ontop of other factors. I'm not an expert but a full powered dive from a 110 just seems faster.

Plan for the 110s (as other Scenario directors are so fond of telling us in regards to most things) fly real wingman strategies so you arent suckered into a furball and leave an elemnet or two higher to deal with any attempts a 110 has to make a pass on a stalling crate.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Guppy35 on March 25, 2017, 11:09:32 PM
Who cares.  Lets just fly it :)
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: FBDragon on March 26, 2017, 03:05:53 AM
Ya think? :)

(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Battle%20of%20Britain/FBDragonJG26_zpsb169jzdk.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/Battle%20of%20Britain/FBDragonJG26_zpsb169jzdk.jpg.html)

 :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :cheers: :salute :salute :salute
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Krusty on March 28, 2017, 08:47:41 AM
They were there, that's a given. But in the real battle they were nothing short of target drones achieving next to no success and were withdrawn because of it.

They were also micromanaged to hell and gone, forced to fly within visual range of bombers at all times, give up any altitude and speed advantage to fly in close formation because of orders from above -- and they'd be punished if they disobeyed.

That's nothing to do with the plane itself. 90% of their losses were based on how they were used. 110s served a long long long time and in just about every role in the war. They were like the P-40 of the USA. Not the best but usually the worst cases of its losses were because of HOW it was used, not THAT it was used.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Delirium on March 28, 2017, 09:32:02 AM
In the last BoB scenario I flew the 110s. We were unstoppable! The thing could engage and disengage at will and had the firepower to down one or more RAF fighters in one pass. Unless the original variant is available, it will dominate the virtual skies once again.

The only weakness it had is the fact it had to limit the engagement to maintain a speed advantage. That isn't a weakness when you can leave Spitfires choking on your exhaust as you easily pulled away.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Krusty on March 28, 2017, 09:45:14 AM
Delerium, people keep throwing out that the C-4b we have is uber, overpowered, etcs. This is just false. In fact the only thing overmodeled is probably the roll rate. The model we have is quite slower than the "pure" 110C-4 fighter model. There's no real evidence anywhere -- ever -- to make anyone think the 110 is uber. It's all in how it's used. When I ran BOB I focused on hitting radar because I knew (with the power of 60 years of hindsight) how important it was. The Luftwaffe commanders didn't focus as much on it as I did and the results were quite different.

Again, all in how it's used, NOT the plane itself in this case.


(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=59&p2=104&pw=2&gtype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)

Note how it tops out about 340mph. The "pure" thing did 350. It didn't have a permanent bomb rack weighing hundreds of pounds and greatly slowing down the top speed, to boot.

I really wish folks would stop harping on the 110C. I really do. It's a false debate and would be debunked if anybody read past the headline.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Krusty on March 28, 2017, 09:49:03 AM
Oh, and just to lay this "110 we have is uber" myth even more to rest, here's another nail in the coffin:

(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=59&p2=60&pw=2&gtype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)

And here's another

(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=59&p2=61&pw=2&gtype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)

The only thing it outruns is the hurricane Mk I, not known as a fast plane in any regard. Even then, the Hurr MkI is still damn close with WEP up to 15k or so.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: JunkyII on March 28, 2017, 10:43:48 AM
What have been the altitude restrictions in the past?...because from those charts you could definitely get the Spitfires into a BnZ situation like Bruv and Del described...especially while the 109's are engaging them.in close combat.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Delirium on March 28, 2017, 11:47:01 AM
Oh, and just to lay this "110 we have is uber" myth even more to rest, here's another nail in the coffin:

Boy, Krusty hasn't changed a bit.

Did you test it in a dive? It builds up speed much better nose low (and can hold onto it almost as well as the RAF) than the Spit or Hurricane and that is exactly what I referring to. The fact you don't know this gives my stance more credibility.

The only weakness it had is the fact it had to limit the engagement to maintain a speed advantage. That isn't a weakness when you can leave Spitfires choking on your exhaust as you easily pulled away.

Climb to alt, dive slightly to build up speed and keep it fast the entire time. It can BnZ with ease, again leaving the Spit and Hurricane choking on exhaust fumes.

Feel free to argue the point, but anyone with any common sense realizes it dominates the BoB event particularly without altitude limitations placed on the event.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Delirium on March 28, 2017, 11:58:35 AM
Basically, you fly the 110 like a Me262; you keep 7k beneath you to rapidly exit and nothing will catch you, even it the interceptor has a tremendous altitude advantage. Once you get away, climb and come back for more feasting.

I would say the 110s would dominate a situation where they were fighting Me109Es instead of Spitfires and Hurricanes. They can minimize their exposure to danger and make one pass kills quite easily.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Devil 505 on March 28, 2017, 12:09:38 PM
God forbid the Allies have to deal with an enemy that's better at altitude.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Zoney on March 28, 2017, 12:21:08 PM
God forbid the Allies have to deal with an enemy that's better at altitude.  :rolleyes:


This
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: horble on March 28, 2017, 12:23:31 PM
BoB without the 110 would just be weird.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: puller on March 28, 2017, 12:44:32 PM
God forbid the Allies have to deal with an enemy that's better at altitude.  :rolleyes:

 :aok
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Owlblink on March 28, 2017, 01:33:11 PM
What have been the altitude restrictions in the past?...because from those charts you could definitely get the Spitfires into a BnZ situation like Bruv and Del described...especially while the 109's are engaging them.in close combat.

again, that has to do with strategy. Any plane with a good guns platform can BnZ if it comes in with the energy advantage. A Smart commander will have their pilots fly line abreast till engaged, hold off an element or a flight while the other engages (unless numbers require). Plan for what you fear, hold something with high alt for the 110s and everyone is fine.

In the end it's not the plane, it is the pilots and the planning. In Hell over Hinterland the Typhoon did enjoy speed and a great guns platform but the fact it did well was because of good pilots. The only real threat a plane posses to an enemy, once spotted, is a psychological one. Stay calm, brake defensively at the right time and with intent to be the attacker and nothing can shoot you down. And above all, teamwork teamwork teamwork.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Bruv119 on March 28, 2017, 01:47:46 PM
In the last BoB scenario I flew the 110s. We were unstoppable! The thing could engage and disengage at will and had the firepower to down one or more RAF fighters in one pass. Unless the original variant is available, it will dominate the virtual skies once again.

The only weakness it had is the fact it had to limit the engagement to maintain a speed advantage. That isn't a weakness when you can leave Spitfires choking on your exhaust as you easily pulled away.

del was the exact pilot that opened my mind to how silly the 110 is in this setting.  i witnessed his scene of terror during the last bofb.  i made a point of getting more altitude and speed to avenge my colleagues however he saw me coming and left me for dead in a drag race nearly all the way back to france.   to top it off he even then reset the fight when he had some backup 109s come in.   needless to say i was all grrr   that is bs.  i can tolerate being outnumbered badly, i can deal with the fact that it takes nearly a whole clip just to shoot down a couple of bombers whilst they have escorts.  i just cant accept my beautiful spitfire being out turned out gunned and out run by a dang 110!   :D

im glad he totally agrees from the other pov. 

i never said remove it completely just alter some of the conditions for further historical accuracy. 
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Owlblink on March 28, 2017, 01:53:14 PM
They day is coming…
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/19/71/35/197135de3f15df53873da7f249101020.jpg)
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: puller on March 28, 2017, 03:33:16 PM
They day is coming…
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/19/71/35/197135de3f15df53873da7f249101020.jpg)

I like it!  :rock
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: JunkyII on March 28, 2017, 04:40:37 PM
again, that has to do with strategy. Any plane with a good guns platform can BnZ if it comes in with the energy advantage. A Smart commander will have their pilots fly line abreast till engaged, hold off an element or a flight while the other engages (unless numbers require). Plan for what you fear, hold something with high alt for the 110s and everyone is fine.

In the end it's not the plane, it is the pilots and the planning. In Hell over Hinterland the Typhoon did enjoy speed and a great guns platform but the fact it did well was because of good pilots. The only real threat a plane posses to an enemy, once spotted, is a psychological one. Stay calm, brake defensively at the right time and with intent to be the attacker and nothing can shoot you down. And above all, teamwork teamwork teamwork.
I agree but for Krusty to call them false claims and then post those charts is a stretch...Above 26K the 110 pulls away easily which makes it easier to BnZ...fact of life speed is the key to survival in that situation.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Delirium on March 28, 2017, 05:23:50 PM
I agree but for Krusty to call them false claims and then post those charts is a stretch

Nothing new. Hitech even calls a complete load of hogwash the "Krusty Scale". Do a search if you want some amusement.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: FBDragon on March 28, 2017, 05:51:29 PM
Dam, can't we all just stop complaining!!! What's the sense in it. So one side has a better airplane, The scenario the tempest was a better airplane. In RL the japs had a better airplane in the beginning, we had to develop tactics to counter it. We should do the same thing here.  :salute :salute :salute
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Bruv119 on March 28, 2017, 06:23:24 PM
Dam, can't we all just stop complaining!!! What's the sense in it. So one side has a better airplane, The scenario the tempest was a better airplane. In RL the japs had a better airplane in the beginning, we had to develop tactics to counter it. We should do the same thing here.  :salute :salute :salute

sorry dragon but that is mis-information.  Whilst the Tempest was good it still got run down by 109K4s, d9s and TAs in a dive and at 20k.   So it didn't un-balance anything.   The guys in them did a fantastic job in staying alive.   

As delirium alluded to it is akin to a 262 in the MA stay fast and your un-touchable.  I got touched and not in a good way plenty of times in Hinterland. 

I'm happy if it is at least looked at in the design I'll accept whatever Nef decides is fair.  If nothing changes then we will just be repeating the same thing that happened in the last two bofbs where the Luftwaffe wipe the floor with the RAF all too easily IMO.  Thanks to the Ju88 and 110 and not the fights that 109s spits and hurricanes can have.   
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Delirium on March 28, 2017, 06:31:50 PM
Dam, can't we all just stop complaining!!!

I'm not complaining, I am merely stating the most effective use of the bird in that environment. I wanted to fly the 110 just once for the BoB scenario. Now that I have, if I had the choice I'd rather fly something with steeper safety curve. Scenarios are little fun in the easier birds, it is one of the reasons I am volunteering (again) to fly unarmed recce P38s for the next 8th AF based scenario.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Devil 505 on March 28, 2017, 07:15:40 PM
Go home, Bruv. You're drunk.  :devil

The 100C is no superweapon. It is slower than the Spit 1 at all alts under 26K - and even then the speed differential is about 10mph at the most. The turning circle is 1.5 times that of both the Spit and Hurricane. Also it's a huge target.

The Tempest was a much bigger threat in the last scenario by comparison.


Here's the good news for you though, if the last running of BoB as a scenario is any indication, then the only 110's will be be fighter-bombers of Eprobungsgruppe 210. Even with an additional squadron of pure fighter 110's there won't be too many out there to ruin your day.


Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Delirium on March 28, 2017, 07:34:44 PM
The 100C is no superweapon. It is slower than the Spit 1 at all alts under 26K - and even then the speed differential is about 10mph at the most. The turning circle is 1.5 times that of both the Spit and Hurricane. Also it's a huge target.

Nose low, it will gain more speed than anything in the planeset from that period. Worse yet, it holds the E relatively well and can skip away. I'm a sucky stick, particularly with torque birds. In spite of this, in 2.5 frames I was able to score 23 kills, 3 assists, with just 1 death in frame 4 because the RAF was given SpitVs for that frame (and 6 kills were SpitVs) because the event was so one sided.


Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Devil 505 on March 28, 2017, 08:58:11 PM
Which event was this?
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Bruv119 on March 28, 2017, 08:59:41 PM
speaking of Spit V's,  whilst I''d rather see the ju88 removed and 110c limited.   

There may be an argument for the inclusion towards the latter segment! 
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Vudu15 on March 28, 2017, 10:26:57 PM
nah exclude to 88s and leave the 110s alone.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Krusty on March 31, 2017, 08:05:48 AM
Del, you need to chill. You flew it once. In one BOB. Had success, now claim it's OP? I have flown it. A lot more than you, I'd wager. Over the years I've had successes with it in the LWA against late war monsters. I loved it so much I made 5 or 6 skins for it.

ANYTHING you're describing about the 110 can be done by ANY plane. Oh, so it's uber when the 110 keeps its speed and picks turn fighting spits? What about spits that keep their speed and pick 109Es that the hurricanes forced into a turn fight? I've played multiple BOBs and led one of them to victory. The 110 is a tool that can be used and its strengths are NOT its speed but rather its loitering ability. The 109s and 110s have the cannon option which RAF don't have in BOB. The 110 has a lot more ammo for theirs. That, alone, makes them useful. The 110 can't do what the spit can, but it can do it over England and stay up longer before it has to RTB. That is its power.

Seriously, this is a whole lot of fuss about a non-issue. Especially when 110s are so limited we'd be lucky to see a flight of even 6 of them during a scenario.

Further, your ad hominem attacks just show you don't have an argument other than "I said so! Anybody that disagrees is a jerk!"

I mean... seriously? Where the hell did that come from?  :uhoh
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: BFOOT1 on March 31, 2017, 09:15:10 AM
I for one can deal without the Ju-88's, but leave the 110. It makes a nice big fat target, and it make certainly makes intercepting the bombers more fun as well.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Drano on March 31, 2017, 09:52:34 AM
Krusty. You've been flying these events for a long time right? You got the market cornered on that or something? I'll ask again as someone that has also flown a frame or two in my time. How many times has the RAF won a BoB? Hell how many FRAMES of ANY BoB have they won? The answers are never and maybe never. And you think things just aren't a little bit off? Really?

Look the fun of participating in these events evaporates rather quickly if things aren't close to competitive. It's one of the reasons this former die hard events guy has largely bailed from them.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Delirium on March 31, 2017, 01:07:24 PM
Del, you need to chill. You flew it once. In one BOB. Had success, now claim it's OP? I have flown it. A lot more than you, I'd wager. Over the years I've had successes with it in the LWA against late war monsters. I loved it so much I made 5 or 6 skins for it.

You may be right and you may know about the 110 than anyone in the game, including me. However, I am not the only one to see the ability to disengage at will. If memory serves, Bruv had about 8-10k on me when he dove on me and still could not catch up.

Feel free to believe as you will, I know trying to change your mind about anything is a waste of time.

The Krusty scale has just been recalibrate for a new max level.

HiTech
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Devil 505 on March 31, 2017, 03:47:29 PM
You don't like having an enemy that can disengage at will?

Try flying as Axis in every event set after 1942!  :bhead
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: JunkyII on March 31, 2017, 03:51:59 PM
You don't like having an enemy that can disengage at will?

Try flying as Axis in every event set after 1942!  :bhead
Just a bit of an exaggeration
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Bruv119 on March 31, 2017, 04:00:10 PM
it's ok junky we are having some fun here.   :D

I'm not bothered about planes getting away it's just the historical application and the facts.   The 110 was a capable plane but they got shot down early on and withdrawn from the battle.   

I'd like to see no more than 4 of them tops if they are in for the whole 12 hours.   6 if they get withdrawn half way through. 

Maybe 6 SpitV's in the final 3 hours.     :D
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Fencer51 on March 31, 2017, 04:32:57 PM
No MkVs.  :joystick:
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: JunkyII on March 31, 2017, 05:27:03 PM
it's ok junky we are having some fun here.   :D

I'm not bothered about planes getting away it's just the historical application and the facts.   The 110 was a capable plane but they got shot down early on and withdrawn from the battle.   

I'd like to see no more than 4 of them tops if they are in for the whole 12 hours.   6 if they get withdrawn half way through. 

Maybe 6 SpitV's in the final 3 hours.     :D
As a generally speaking...luft pilot, it bothers me seeing all this negativity about luft rides...I didnt see NOWOTNY complaining that his planes weren't good enough :old:
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: puller on March 31, 2017, 05:39:31 PM
Nowotny would have been shot if he would have complained too much
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Devil 505 on March 31, 2017, 06:33:39 PM
Nowotny was also vulched by a Pony.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Guppy35 on March 31, 2017, 08:47:53 PM
Agreed.  No Mk Vs. We don't need no stinking metal ailerons!  Lets just fly it and have some fun  :aok
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: bozon on April 02, 2017, 10:32:22 AM
bahh 110...
give me more Stukas.
MOAR STUKA I SAY! !  :old:
 :airplane:
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: swareiam on April 02, 2017, 06:29:40 PM
bahh 110...
give me more Stukas.
MOAR STUKA I SAY! !  :old:
 :airplane:

I'll fly a Stuka!
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Crash Orange on April 03, 2017, 12:08:11 AM
Krusty. You've been flying these events for a long time right? You got the market cornered on that or something? I'll ask again as someone that has also flown a frame or two in my time. How many times has the RAF won a BoB? Hell how many FRAMES of ANY BoB have they won? The answers are never and maybe never. And you think things just aren't a little bit off? Really?

If the same scenario is run 10+ times and the same side wins every time, it seems pretty obvious that there's a BIG problem with the balance.

I don't think the problem is the pane set (although the Ju-88s should go), it's the objectives/scoring. Same as the last one - good matchups, but the results of the fights mean nothing because the scoring is so skewed one side will always win even if it loses.

As for "the Allies had an unfair advantage last time so the Axis should this time," that's just silly. Anyway half the people planning on flying probably haven't decided which side to fly on yet.

Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: ROC on April 03, 2017, 05:23:21 PM
This event is going to be different than the typical scenario, it will be constructed like the original 12 hour event  that Nefarious designed. If you remember the first 12 hour event, you know how that worked out.   :aok
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Beefcake on April 03, 2017, 09:12:41 PM
This event is going to be different than the typical scenario, it will be constructed like the original 12 hour event  that Nefarious designed. If you remember the first 12 hour event, you know how that worked out.   :aok

That scenario was HIGHLY unfair, it came down to the last bomber mission of the event. Scenario's need to be decided well before the end, IMO we need some change-ups.

The Allies should get Spit 14 & 16s along with Tempests and Mossie's, the Axis should only get He111's and 109E's, that would be fair to the Allies. Also the He111's should be restricted to 50kg bombs only while the hardness is set at 50k per object and radar should be enabled for the Allied side all across Germany (IE Satellites).


----------------

Ok on a more serious note IIRC the first 3 or 4 BoBs we ran the Allies won. I think it was BoB 08 when the Axis finally claimed victory and they won again in BoB 13. The other thing is yes the 110 is a good aircraft in BoB but it's not the plane that makes it dangerous it's the pilot.

In HoH Bruv was deadly in the Temp, scoring 25% of the Allied kills in frame 1-3, while in frame 4 when he was gone the Temps didn't slaughter like they did. Was it the pilot or the plane? Point is we shouldn't ban aircraft just because a good pilot wants to fly it, you just have to deal with it.

As an AH BoB Veteran  I can somewhat agree with removing or limiting the Ju88s as they're faster than alllied fighters and even axis escorts. Plus the 88 is an old model and I like the new He111s in my screenshots.  :)

(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq278/GenBeef/BoB%202013%20Frame%203/BoB2013F3S1-Photo2.png)

(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq278/GenBeef/BoB%202013%20Frame%203/BoB2013F3S1-Photo1.png)

(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq278/GenBeef/BoB%202013%20Frame%203/BoB2013F3S1-Photo5.png)

(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq278/GenBeef/BoB%202013%20Frame%203/BoB2013F3S1-Photo6.png)

(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq278/GenBeef/BoB%202013%20Frame%203/BoB2013F3S1-Photo8.png)

(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq278/GenBeef/BoB%202013%20Frame%202/BoB2013F2S2-Photo1.png)

(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq278/GenBeef/BoB%202013%20Frame%202/BoB2013F2S2-Photo3.png)

(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq278/GenBeef/BoB%202013%20Frame%202/BoB2013F2S2-Photo6.png)

I respect all our event designers and after being the Allied Bomber CO for Target For Today I trust that Nef and ROC will create something fun for everyone. I mean like ROC says TFT came down to line and in all honestly I thought we lost that one. Despite the Axis at one time being down 5-1 in pilots at the beginning they almost won it and IIRC it was close at the end.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Guppy35 on April 03, 2017, 11:04:48 PM
Send em all.  I'd kill to see a sky filled with 110s, 88s, 87s, 111s and 109Es.   I don't care if the odds are 5-1 for the Luftwaffe.  I want to be in a 602 Spit diving into that mess to 'break em up".

It would be totally immersive if the sky was full of Luftwaffe birds.

Sadly I fear we won't be able to fill enough seats for that.

(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/BoB1_zpsngdc395s.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/BoB1_zpsngdc395s.jpg.html)

(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Bob2_zpsm5rlsuqt.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/Bob2_zpsm5rlsuqt.jpg.html)
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: bozon on April 04, 2017, 12:29:16 PM
I am torn bdetween flying a Stuka and flying a hurricane.
I meam stukas are cool, but they have just two forwrd stapler guns while the hurry has 8 - you kill the enemy by making his FE crash from all the tracer smoke particles....
 :x
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: shotgunneeley on April 12, 2017, 11:29:27 PM
What are we setting out to do - a 12 hour "Hardest Day" August 18th, 1940 scenario? I don't like the talk about including more/less of an aircraft type or artificially skewing conditions to give one or another more of an edge. Scenarios should be created to generate an atmosphere most similar to history in terms of setting, objectives and tools at hand - but freely allow for each side to determine how to use those assets as if they were in control of history.


I've been reading up on this pretty hard, very insightful to both sides.
https://www.amazon.com/Hardest-Day-Battle-Britain-August/dp/1844258203/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492053795&sr=8-1&keywords=the+hardest+day


From what I've read as to the aircraft AVAILABLE at the time of the battle, it would be fun to see an immersive spread like this:
Allies: 60% Hurricane Is, 30% Spitfire Is, and 10% single/empty Boston MkIIIs (substituting for Bristol Blenheim interceptors).
Axis: 35% Bf-109Es, 20% He-111 formations, 20% single Ju-88s (with 20x50kg bombs only), 15% Ju-87 stukas (1x250kg and 4x50kg bombs), 10% Bf-110C fighter destroyers.

I feel the Axis should have a slight advantage in total numbers as the attackers, but for gameplay purposes I don't know what a good ratio would be (60-40?)

I ask for the Ju-88 as the most likely candidate to substitute for the Do-17 in both physical resemblance and loadout capacity (and yes historically there were Ju-88s present). I've noted them to be singles so as to offset their more advanced speed for the period skewing their effectiveness. A contingent of Ju-87 stukas is an absolute must in terms of participating in the battle. I for one would be perfectly happy to fly one the entire time - just got to use them in a manner to deliver ordinance without being intercepted.

All aircraft should take off with 100% fuel (with drop tanks being optional).

Historically the first German raid was built up and launched just prior to lunch time and the entire engagement lasted into the night (with the British launching their own limited night bombing raid that evening). I propose the game time clock run from 1100 hours to 2300 hours. Targets I figure should be prioritized as airfields and ports lying south-east of London. Would be a cool culmination to the event with a night raid over London.

I'd vote that field objects stay down for the duration of the event once destroyed with a large number of bases being included as potential targets as opposed to time-regenerating objects over fewer allowable target bases. Hangars, fuel, radar, ordinance bunkers (and possibly barracks) in addition to ground guns are the only viable targets to bomb. Axis gain "X" amount of points per object destroyed by the end of the event, Allies gain the same amount of points per object saved by the end of the event.

That's the majority of my thoughts. Highly looking forward to participating no matter what role I find myself in.  :airplane:


 
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: Guppy35 on April 13, 2017, 01:18:23 PM
They most definitely were not flying Blenheim's against the raids during the day.  They may have been listed in an order of battle but they weren't involved as 10 percent of the defenders.   

Spits and Hurri's.  We don't have Defiants  and they were in and dead so fast they really wouldn't mean much anyway.
Title: Re: It's coming this August...
Post by: shotgunneeley on April 13, 2017, 10:10:47 PM
They most definitely were not flying Blenheim's against the raids during the day.  They may have been listed in an order of battle but they weren't involved as 10 percent of the defenders.   

Spits and Hurri's.  We don't have Defiants  and they were in and dead so fast they really wouldn't mean much anyway.

You're right - I was kind of lumping Bristol Blenheims and Defiants all into one package with the light Boston mkIII idea. I suppose if the scenario ended with a night phase they could have a presence as a night interceptor, but I think the primary use of any Blenheim squadron was to drop a few bombs with little effect on German bases at the end of the August 18th action. I know 10% seems like a stretch even taking the total availability of Blenheim fighters/bombers and Defiants into account, but I figured anything less would make it not worthwhile to pursue as a feature in the event. I fully acknowledge that the backbone of the RAF defence lies with the Hurricanes and Spitfires, I just thought there might be enough of a case to allow for a small portion of the defenders to fly "Blenheims".

The following passages are quoted from Battle of Britain: The Hardest Day by Alfred Price (First American Edition, 1980)

Quote
Pg. 22
The last of the types in the Fighter Command order of battle, the twin-engined two-seat Bristol Blenheim, had a maximum speed of only 285 mph and took about 13 minutes to reach 20,000 feet. When the Blenheim had first gone into service as a bomber three years earlier, in 1937, such a performance had been considered impressive enough for some of these machines to be modified and issued to fighter squadrons. In this role the Blenheim carried five Browning machine guns firing forwards and a single Vickers gun in the rear turret for self defence. By the summer of 1940 the Blenheim was clearly no match for any of the German fighters and in Fighter Command it was relegated to the night fighter squadrons where its long endurance was of value - it could fly patrols lasting more than four hours. In the summer of 1940 some of the Blenheims were fitted with the first primitive airborne interception radar sets. A few Blenheims were also operated by Coastal Command as long-range fighters and, from time to time during the Battle of Britain, these would become embroiled in combat with German aircraft

Quote
Pg. 117
In addition, two Hurricanes took off to intercept flown by pilots of the Fighter Interceptor Unit from Tangmere. Formed to conduct trials with the new and highly secret airborne radar sets, the FIU had lost all its Blenheim night fighters during the attack on Tangmere two days earlier. While waiting for new aircraft the unit had borrowed a couple of Hurricanes from the airfield's resident fighter squadrons and its pilots now went into action in these. Also, at the Coastal Command airfield at Thorney Island, No 235 Squadron prepared to send up a Flight of Blenheim fighters to assist in the defence.