Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: cav58d on March 22, 2017, 11:09:28 AM
Title: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: cav58d on March 22, 2017, 11:09:28 AM
I'm looking for some tactics on how you would employ a fighter that is considered a strong vertical performer, when in a fight and the enemy has your six.
109's for example. Always hear their strength is their ability to fight in the vertical. Lets say i'm in a K model, good energy state, and there is a mid/late war fighting 1k behind me and maneuvering. How do I use the vertical to my advantage?
Is their an initial pitch you want to go for? 45 degrees and keep it there? 45 and increasing until the stall? Plant it right on it's tail at 90?
Thanks for the tips!
<S>
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: JOACH1M on March 22, 2017, 11:11:28 AM
If you are in a k4 and an enemy is 1k behind you "maneuvering" you will easily out climb him. just fly straight up and come straight back down.
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: cav58d on March 22, 2017, 11:27:15 AM
Let me rephrase...My only resort is to go vertical and the bad guy is going to follow.
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: JOACH1M on March 22, 2017, 11:30:57 AM
Let me rephrase...My only resort is to go vertical and the bad guy is going to follow.
...and hope they're not in any fast accelerating aircraft. The K4 is near the top, but the LA-5/7, Tempest, Spit XIV will eat you up and spit out the nuts if you try to 'zoom' up and away from them at a lower altitude. But they're the only ones. :D
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: JOACH1M on March 22, 2017, 11:42:33 AM
...and hope they're not in any fast accelerating aircraft. The K4 is near the top, but the LA-5/7, Tempest, Spit XIV will eat you up and spit out the nuts if you try to 'zoom' up and away from them at a lower altitude. But they're the only ones. :D
If a spit14 or Temp is behind you while you are in a K4 just turn sharply. The K4 can turn much tighter than either of those planes.
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: ACE on March 22, 2017, 11:55:40 AM
I like to utilize a vertical scissor or a vertical rolling scissor until the other guy stalls out.
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: TequilaChaser on March 22, 2017, 12:28:20 PM
Learn/practice E-management to the best of your ability, Lyme, then get with a Trainer or ACE (Spek is his gameid) or any of the other frequent KOTH players that are considered to be in the top of the litter...
Ask them to teach you all the different ways/types of Reversals... and to teach you how to drag your attacker vertically in a Spiral climb, learn how to Spiral climb in your particular aircraft both climbing turning left and turning right...
Hope this helps
TC
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: TequilaChaser on March 22, 2017, 12:30:30 PM
Let me rephrase...My only resort is to go vertical and the bad guy is going to follow.
If this is the case something has already gone terribly wrong and any situation where you can what if it all day is hard to explain how to beat it.
So you have a Spit 9(type fighter) 1K behind your K4....you have E and they manuever ed to get there on your 6 (this is the situation I'm reading from your posts)...
If they maneuvered to get there and have less E then you...a zoom climb to get above your opponent is easy. You base your pitch not off a standard say like 45 degrees but off what your opponent decides to do with his pitch. If they match your pitch, make yours steeper, if they shallow out to keep energy you can shallows yours....I would also suggest adding a spiral into it to force them to lose that energy to follow you...in a spiral climb your objective is to create an angle where they flip their plane over to follow your spiral....this is where they burn the most energy because gravity and lift are both pointed toward the earth.
If the plane is closing on you....going vertical is the best way to close the energy gap between you and your opponent. A lot of people preach the split s but you are just giving up the fight over and over...yea it's safe but it's going to end poorly.
You use a vertical manuever to force an overshoot. Going vertical in a reverse is risky but if done correctly leads to better position to force a rolling scissors or vertical scissor or even to gain a shot opportunity as the enemy flys by. You do this by starting a turn creating an obtuse angle between their nose and your wingtip. As they get closer you tigthen that turn to create a 90 degree angle from your fuselage and their nose...at this point just before they have guns you go vertical into a barrel roll as the over shoot you try to keep your roll behind their 3 9 line (their wings) kinda like you would in a turn fight...
These are hard to type about, I do feel like the community deserves a good video explanation because a lot of players struggle against this.
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on March 22, 2017, 02:01:38 PM
If you are in a k4 and an enemy is 1k behind you "maneuvering" you will easily out climb him. just fly straight up and come straight back down.
Be carefull of the P47M, you are not safe at ranges up to 600-800y. You need to be at least 1.5K out before you go straight vertical. In a K4 ur best bet is to force that overshoot by pulling/pushing just enough to be out of tje way of the guns and rely on the ubber climb. Once at slow speed nose up, the 109 will always give you that extra altitude and stall later than your adversary.
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: Owlblink on March 22, 2017, 03:26:54 PM
Going to highlight and ask questions on some information to try to help clarify.
You use a vertical manuever to force an overshoot. Going vertical in a reverse is risky but if done correctly leads to better position to force a rolling scissors or vertical scissor or even to gain a shot opportunity as the enemy flys by. You do this by starting a turn creating an obtuse angle{mathematically speaking, greater than 90 degrees and less than 180} between their nose and your wingtip {This is where one finds the visualization a challange. Would you measure from the inside wing or the outside wing of the defender, relative to the attacker's nose? It may serve us better to talk in terms of angle off tail, where we discribe the desired angle we want the attacker's flight path/nose off of the defender's tail. As they get closer you tigthen that turn to create a 90 degree angle from your fuselage {this sounds like we are now discribing something equal to Angle off Tail, just in different terms} and their nose...at this point just before they have guns you go vertical into a barrel roll as the over shoot you try to keep your roll behind their 3 9 line (their wings) kinda like you would in a turn fight...
These are hard to type about, I do feel like the community deserves a good video explanation because a lot of players struggle against this.
This situation is great when you know (from experience) that they will get too close to you if you simply go for a sheer vertical hammerhead or over-the-top reversal, giving them a floating object to shoot at; same reasoning when we are talking about a spiral climb or proper rooe-a-dope (drawn out spiral climb, increasingly tighter as needed). A good exercise when attempting a vertical reversal is for the defender to have their wingtip towards the assailant - this usually makes the defender a smaller target and you are halfway across your roll towards where they will overshoot you. Try to use your plane's torque in your favor, when you can it is often best to have the atacker off of your right wing in a 109 so as to use the engine's torque to aid you in your counterclockwise (or widdershins) roll.
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: The Fugitive on March 22, 2017, 03:55:47 PM
I'm looking for some tactics on how you would employ a fighter that is considered a strong vertical performer, when in a fight and the enemy has your six.
109's for example. Always hear their strength is their ability to fight in the vertical. Lets say i'm in a K model, good energy state, and there is a mid/late war fighting 1k behind me and maneuvering. How do I use the vertical to my advantage?
Is their an initial pitch you want to go for? 45 degrees and keep it there? 45 and increasing until the stall? Plant it right on it's tail at 90?
Thanks for the tips!
<S>
As you can see there are a bunch of answers to the question you posed. Strait zoom climb, spiral climb, 38s can hang on the props longer due to the counter rotating props and have control under 50 mph, hi yo-yos, rolling scissors, and on and on. There isnt many one move suits all. In a K4 vs and spit 9 you can do "this", in a K4 against a 190 you can do "this" but not "that".
It all depends on a hundred variables. Your speed, their speed, your E, their E, how your plane climbs how theirs does, how yours zooms how theirs zoom ( there different, ever get caught by an A20 in a zoom?)
Either pose a more specific question, or as a general question you can see there is a lot of practice in your future :D
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: morfiend on March 22, 2017, 04:05:48 PM
Cav,
I usually stay out of these conversations,mostly because it's difficult to explain with just words and someone will always find some fault to pick and the thread goes sideways!
First thing I would do is turn into the enemy,trying to spoil any shot they may have and to cause them to change their pursuit course.
It would be much simpler to show you than try to explain all of this,I'm usually in the TA most evenings,drop by and give me a shout and I'm sure I can give you some tips that you can work on and help you develop a proper approach to convert from defensive to offensive when being chased by an enemy!
:salute
PS: there is no singularly approach as there are too many variables,but there are some dont do this,like pulling straight up in front of the enemy!!
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: cav58d on March 22, 2017, 04:10:50 PM
<S> thanks everyone. TA sounds good!
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: Owlblink on March 22, 2017, 05:41:12 PM
Morfiend and the other trainers are a BIG help!
Keep asking questions; even though you see how many similar and various answers you can get, you will start to see what is valuable advice and what works for you. In time you start to have these "ah HA!" moments when something you've read or practiced with a trainer starts to make sense. Little by little it comes together. Remember too that everyone gets shot down in this virtual world, we all make mistakes and have something to learn from them.
If you really get into it, check out some of the many great books on air combat defense. My favorite is In Pursuit by Johan Kylander. the author once had it online to download, for free, but there's paperbacks and such you can purchase that are worth getting.
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: JunkyII on March 22, 2017, 07:28:56 PM
Going to highlight and ask questions on some information to try to help clarify.
This situation is great when you know (from experience) that they will get too close to you if you simply go for a sheer vertical hammerhead or over-the-top reversal, giving them a floating object to shoot at; same reasoning when we are talking about a spiral climb or proper rooe-a-dope (drawn out spiral climb, increasingly tighter as needed). A good exercise when attempting a vertical reversal is for the defender to have their wingtip towards the assailant - this usually makes the defender a smaller target and you are halfway across your roll towards where they will overshoot you. Try to use your plane's torque in your favor, when you can it is often best to have the atacker off of your right wing in a 109 so as to use the engine's torque to aid you in your counterclockwise (or widdershins) roll.
Yep your right should be from tail not wingtip :aok
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: ACE on March 22, 2017, 09:25:19 PM
If this is the case something has already gone terribly wrong and any situation where you can what if it all day is hard to explain how to beat it.
So you have a Spit 9(type fighter) 1K behind your K4....you have E and they manuever ed to get there on your 6 (this is the situation I'm reading from your posts)...
If they maneuvered to get there and have less E then you...a zoom climb to get above your opponent is easy. You base your pitch not off a standard say like 45 degrees but off what your opponent decides to do with his pitch. If they match your pitch, make yours steeper, if they shallow out to keep energy you can shallows yours....I would also suggest adding a spiral into it to force them to lose that energy to follow you...in a spiral climb your objective is to create an angle where they flip their plane over to follow your spiral....this is where they burn the most energy because gravity and lift are both pointed toward the earth.
If the plane is closing on you....going vertical is the best way to close the energy gap between you and your opponent. A lot of people preach the split s but you are just giving up the fight over and over...yea it's safe but it's going to end poorly.
You use a vertical manuever to force an overshoot. Going vertical in a reverse is risky but if done correctly leads to better position to force a rolling scissors or vertical scissor or even to gain a shot opportunity as the enemy flys by. You do this by starting a turn creating an obtuse angle between their nose and your wingtip. As they get closer you tigthen that turn to create a 90 degree angle from your fuselage and their nose...at this point just before they have guns you go vertical into a barrel roll as the over shoot you try to keep your roll behind their 3 9 line (their wings) kinda like you would in a turn fight...
These are hard to type about, I do feel like the community deserves a good video explanation because a lot of players struggle against this.
Very nice write up.
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: nooby52 on March 23, 2017, 07:20:52 AM
I usually stay out of these conversations,mostly because it's difficult to explain with just words and someone will always find some fault to pick and the thread goes sideways!
First thing I would do is turn into the enemy,trying to spoil any shot they may have and to cause them to change their pursuit course.
It would be much simpler to show you than try to explain all of this,I'm usually in the TA most evenings,drop by and give me a shout and I'm sure I can give you some tips that you can work on and help you develop a proper approach to convert from defensive to offensive when being chased by an enemy!
:salute
PS: there is no singularly approach as there are too many variables,but there are some dont do this,like pulling straight up in front of the enemy!!
Heh, I tried slamming on the brakes once, with Morf on my six, hoping he would overshoot. Didn't work like I thought it would. LOL Good thing we were in the TA or I'd of been in the tower in a blink.
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: TheBug on March 23, 2017, 09:18:14 AM
If this is the case something has already gone terribly wrong and any situation where you can what if it all day is hard to explain how to beat it.
So you have a Spit 9(type fighter) 1K behind your K4....you have E and they manuever ed to get there on your 6 (this is the situation I'm reading from your posts)...
If they maneuvered to get there and have less E then you...a zoom climb to get above your opponent is easy. You base your pitch not off a standard say like 45 degrees but off what your opponent decides to do with his pitch. If they match your pitch, make yours steeper, if they shallow out to keep energy you can shallows yours....I would also suggest adding a spiral into it to force them to lose that energy to follow you...in a spiral climb your objective is to create an angle where they flip their plane over to follow your spiral....this is where they burn the most energy because gravity and lift are both pointed toward the earth.
If the plane is closing on you....going vertical is the best way to close the energy gap between you and your opponent. A lot of people preach the split s but you are just giving up the fight over and over...yea it's safe but it's going to end poorly.
You use a vertical manuever to force an overshoot. Going vertical in a reverse is risky but if done correctly leads to better position to force a rolling scissors or vertical scissor or even to gain a shot opportunity as the enemy flys by. You do this by starting a turn creating an obtuse angle between their nose and your wingtip. As they get closer you tigthen that turn to create a 90 degree angle from your fuselage and their nose...at this point just before they have guns you go vertical into a barrel roll as the over shoot you try to keep your roll behind their 3 9 line (their wings) kinda like you would in a turn fight...
These are hard to type about, I do feel like the community deserves a good video explanation because a lot of players struggle against this.
So essentially, it is an understanding of turn circles and pursuit curves.
When I break I'm trying to create angles on the bandit (Aspect angle and Angle off) and increase closure on the bandit to make him solve the problem of how to get back on my 6. The issue is the bandit may just pull lead for a gunshot and there is no problem left to solve if you don't recognize this.
So a bandit can't use turning ability of his aircraft to solve for Aspect or Angle off until he gets to your turn circle. The distance he is outside of your turn is "free angles"...I think everyone knows if you turn early enough, you will meet the guy nose to nose (180 aspect)...most don't do this (for whatever reason).
So since most guys pull lead for a shot against a turning bandit here is what is happening. When you pull lead against a bandit in a break, you are increasing aspect angle, increasing angle off, and increasing closure (all things that I said you want to do TO the bandit when you are defensive correct? So this is actually helping me when I'm defensive!!). But you (as the attacker) are doing it for a reason...a gunshot attempt.
So as the defender, you do your turn, you see the bandit, you roll to put him on a wingtip and then pull up to avoid the gun attempt (remember he needs 3 things for an effective gun shot--he has to be IN RANGE, IN LEAD, and IN PLANE OF MOTION). This gets you out of the PLANE OF MOTION, and is the start to the barrel roll that Junky talked about. The key here is to assess line of sight (LOS) of the bandit across the tail, if it is low, barrel roll may not work. If it is high, it will work).
Here is the video Junky asked for....it is a P-51 coming in with E on me, when I'm on the deck. As junky said...it is easier to watch then try to explain:)
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: TheBug on March 23, 2017, 11:00:39 AM
Another good post. :salute
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: JunkyII on March 23, 2017, 12:12:00 PM
Good video with Jerkins explaining what he's doing...the only area where I had a problem is in the initial roll he talks about coming down on top of his opponent, you want to stay behind your opponent to keep them in front of you which is why you see the Hog almost come back within his turn.
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: Kanth on March 23, 2017, 12:46:18 PM
I made some video recently because I'm training someone and it shows exactly what's going on in that youtube vid.
I'd watch it with Icons on, Trails on, External , looking out the back and in fixed view mode. That should give you some idea of what's going on. Now at the time I was out of ammo but the flying still applies.
Hope that helps.
Also remember that the move is dynamic, so how hard you pull, whether you work your throttle, where you are aiming your plane all can change throughout the manuver depending on what action your adversary takes which is why you need to keep an eye on him.
Good video with Jerkins explaining what he's doing...the only area where I had a problem is in the initial roll he talks about coming down on top of his opponent, you want to stay behind your opponent to keep them in front of you which is why you see the Hog almost come back within his turn.
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: FLS on March 23, 2017, 04:04:24 PM
I'm looking for some tactics on how you would employ a fighter that is considered a strong vertical performer, when in a fight and the enemy has your six.
A good tactic for a bandit close on your 6, when you can't out turn them or out run them, is to get them out of phase with your turns. You can do this with vertical or horizontal turns. The bandit will likely get snap shots but you should be able to avoid giving them a tracking shot.
For vertical turns, pull up while watching the bandit and when they follow you up go down. As they follow you down go up again. Repeat until you have sufficient separation to become offensive or to exit and reset the fight.
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: Rich46yo on March 24, 2017, 02:49:38 PM
I'd add the KI-84 to the list of sneaky climbers too. And of course the P-38 and even the Brewster, dont ask me why, but Ive been surprised by the climb in that dang thing a few times. Even if you are in a very good climbing airplane you can get in trouble against one of the better energy players when he's in a airplane with a good roll rate. The Corsair and the P-47M and 40 come to mind.
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: Owlblink on March 24, 2017, 03:12:50 PM
I'd add the KI-84 to the list of sneaky climbers too. And of course the P-38 and even the Brewster, dont ask me why, but Ive been surprised by the climb in that dang thing a few times. Even if you are in a very good climbing airplane you can get in trouble against one of the better energy players when he's in a airplane with a good roll rate. The Corsair and the P-47M and 40 come to mind.
Super light planes float like kites, so brewsters, zeros, etc will have an advantage in very low stall speed while cutting across a zooming plane's flight path. Always have to be careful of them
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: Puma44 on March 27, 2017, 07:18:39 PM
I usually stay out of these conversations,mostly because it's difficult to explain with just words and someone will always find some fault to pick and the thread goes sideways!
First thing I would do is turn into the enemy,trying to spoil any shot they may have and to cause them to change their pursuit course.
It would be much simpler to show you than try to explain all of this,I'm usually in the TA most evenings,drop by and give me a shout and I'm sure I can give you some tips that you can work on and help you develop a proper approach to convert from defensive to offensive when being chased by an enemy!
:salute
PS: there is no singularly approach as there are too many variables,but there are some dont do this,like pulling straight up in front of the enemy!!
As Morf says, too many variables. Do learn how to use your lift vector and maneuver out of plane with your opponent. Always strive to spoil the opponent's firing solution.
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: TequilaChaser on March 27, 2017, 07:58:51 PM
As Morf says, too many variables. Do learn how to use your lift vector and maneuver out of plane with your opponent. Always strive to spoil the opponent's firing solution.
Agreed!
Lyme (cav), The best way to really learn proper BFM, is to start at the beginning and build up learning/practice mastering / getting the fundementals down, and build your Knowledge base with a firm Rock Solid Strong foundation...once you have accomplished this build upon it with the differing BFM and ACM elements
and remember, you never stop learning something new, unless you just STOP!
at least you show great initiative by just showing up in the Help & Training Forum and ask questions and for help! that is a major step in it self
Hope this helps
TC
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: Puma44 on March 27, 2017, 08:25:13 PM
As TC says, start with the basics. Most experts don't know the basics or don't know how to explain and teach them. Crawl.....walk.....run. :salute
Title: Re: Defensively Vertical?
Post by: JunkyII on March 27, 2017, 10:13:29 PM