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General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Vraciu on March 27, 2017, 07:12:58 PM

Title: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Vraciu on March 27, 2017, 07:12:58 PM
Just as courtesy to others I thought I would let you know that, pending Skuzzy's approval, I am adopting the following:

18    2012-05-17 12:41:55    P51D8011008    55FG/343FS by Mus51

I want to see if I can do something to customize the spec maps without changing the artwork.   It is a nice one that I think is well worth keeping current.   I will report back on this run through the adoption process with anything I come across that may be of help to others.

If anyone else wants it I'll defer.

 :salute
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: oboe on March 30, 2017, 04:59:32 PM
I'm curious how the adoption process works.  I know Skuzzy has been working on the process but I haven't seen a posting describing how its going to work.

Will HTC provide you with the skinner's original art files?   And starting with those materials, you will update the skin, resubmit it, and then it becomes your skin - with the skin being credited to you in the game?


Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Vraciu on March 30, 2017, 05:01:40 PM
I'm curious how the adoption process works.  I know Skuzzy has been working on the process but I haven't seen a posting describing how its going to work.

Will HTC provide you with the skinner's original art files?   And starting with those materials, you will update the skin, resubmit it, and then it becomes your skin - with the skin being credited to you in the game?

Probably only get the single-layer submitted bitmaps.  That's okay though. 
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Devil 505 on March 30, 2017, 05:04:03 PM
I'm curious how the adoption process works.  I know Skuzzy has been working on the process but I haven't seen a posting describing how its going to work.

Will HTC provide you with the skinner's original art files?   And starting with those materials, you will update the skin, resubmit it, and then it becomes your skin - with the skin being credited to you in the game?

It might be that way for the sake of simplicity.

I know that the first skin that I adopt will be redone from the ground up - so it had better have my name on it. 
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Vraciu on March 30, 2017, 05:14:46 PM
In my case I don't want credit.  I'm just tweaking the specular files and maybe doing anti-alias on some panel lines.  More like a restoration than a rebuild. 
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Devil 505 on March 30, 2017, 05:18:30 PM
That makes sense in your case.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Fencer51 on March 30, 2017, 05:23:03 PM
I adopted a 109D9 and I got the basic bitmap just like if it was one of my skins.  I am redoing the skin entirely from scratch though.

Vraciu, please don't use the base fi,e for your adopted 51D.  Redo it completely.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Vraciu on March 30, 2017, 05:27:40 PM
I adopted a 109D9 and I got the basic bitmap just like if it was one of my skins.  I am redoing the skin entirely from scratch though.

Vraciu, please don't use the base fi,e for your adopted 51D.  Redo it completely.

I couldn't improve on what's there.   Not in a million years. The only work it needs is modifying the shine on dull areas and maybe some panel line smoothing. 

I guess I will know more when I see the files.  Will let you know. 
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: oboe on March 30, 2017, 05:36:40 PM
It just seems kinda dicey (risky) to me for HTC to be sharing artists work with others, for the purpose of them building off of it and possibly taking credit for it.   


Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Skuzzy on March 30, 2017, 05:46:00 PM
The only skins anyone can adopt are skins where the player is no longer a player and has not been a player for over a year.  The option is to allow another skinner to take over and update it to meet the new specifications are to remove it entirely.

I do not like the idea of removing skins.  If a skinner wants to adopt it and bring it up to spec, then that skinner is going to get credit for the work. they put into it. 

Yes, the skinner who adopts the skin gets the same files they see now.

We will restrict skinners to only one adopted skin at a time.  That is to say, until the adopted skin is complete, the skinner may not adopt another skin.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Vraciu on March 30, 2017, 06:01:04 PM
It just seems kinda dicey (risky) to me for HTC to be sharing artists work with others, for the purpose of them building off of it and possibly taking credit for it.

I'm sure they've protected themselves.  Once a skin is submitted and accepted it becomes the property of HTC.   

The only option beyond adoption is elimination.  Some of these are worth saving. 
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Fencer51 on March 30, 2017, 06:42:28 PM
I'm sure they've protected themselves.  Once a skin is submitted and accepted it becomes the property of HTC.   

The only option beyond adoption is elimination.  Some of these are worth saving.

None of Mus51's skins are worth saving IMHO.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Vraciu on March 30, 2017, 08:29:30 PM
None of Mus51's skins are worth saving IMHO.

I wouldn't go that far.

I like this one a lot...

(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=386161.0;attach=27241)
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Devil 505 on March 30, 2017, 09:25:35 PM
Mus 51 a.k.a Dutchguy had some of the best skins before bump/spec map update. He was able to bake-in an insane amount of detail.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Vraciu on March 30, 2017, 09:34:12 PM
Mus 51 a.k.a Dutchguy had some of the best skins before bump/spec map update. He was able to bake-in an insane amount of detail.

I always liked his stuff.  I flew his and Fencer's a lot before I started making my own. 

Wth some spec adjustments I think these can be preserved.   They still have relevance in my view.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Vraciu on March 30, 2017, 09:38:50 PM

I do not like the idea of removing skins.  If a skinner wants to adopt it and bring it up to spec, then that skinner is going to get credit for the work. they put into it. 


Is it at all possible to keep the original skin credit for updates that preserve the original artwork?   Or a double credit? 

Example: 55FG/343FS by Mus51/Vraciu

I wouldn't feel right taking the credit for work that's better than my own.  Either way, I'm still wanting to update this one. 
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Fencer51 on March 30, 2017, 09:48:36 PM
I would not assume that it was his own work.  I caught him using another guy's skin and painting over the top of it at one point.  I would even suspect that the possibility exists he used another game's skin and transfered it over using cut and paste.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Devil 505 on March 30, 2017, 09:57:41 PM
That's a hell of an accusation. Dutch was a squaddie of mine and gave me many pointers when I was first starting out in skinning. I very much doubt that he lifted other peoples work and somehow made the pieces fit the AH models so well.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Vraciu on March 30, 2017, 09:57:52 PM
I would not assume that it was his own work.  I caught him using another guy's skin and painting over the top of it at one point.  I would even suspect that the possibility exists he used another game's skin and transfered it over using cut and paste.

 :O :O :O :noid :confused: :bolt:
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Fencer51 on March 30, 2017, 10:11:17 PM

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,281014.0.html


I stand by the proven and believe that the second statement has a good possibility of being true.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Devil 505 on March 30, 2017, 11:45:32 PM
Sorry to say, but there's no proof in that thread. Also, Rogerdee's D-pony's are not in the game either to directly compare to Durchguy's work.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Fencer51 on March 31, 2017, 12:10:35 AM
Devil505,

The proof was there at that time 7 to 10 years ago.  People saw and agreed, trust me someone as sharp as you would notice it as well.  I am not saying that he is the source of all evil in the world, however he did use other's work and submit it as his own.  That he helped you and that you consider him your friend is your own business and has nothing to do with what did occur.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Devil 505 on March 31, 2017, 12:34:11 AM
What really bother's me about your accusation Fencer is that the parts of the skin that most players see and judge skins by is the main airframe - the aspect that set Dutchgy apart from the rest. Dutch had his own style which was very different from Rogerdee's and that style is consistent across all the different plane that Dutch skinned. That tells me that whatever material he took from Roger's posted work must have been the internal parts that most players never notice anyway. That does not make it right, but it's the leap in judgement you took in assuming that somehow Dutch stole all of his work that anger's me.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Vraciu on March 31, 2017, 01:00:04 AM
I wasn't there, but most of what I see on this stuff is unique.  If it were copied then it would have been a duplicate skin. 

I think drawing the OD/Yellow horse blanket and red horse symbol on the rudder isn't easy to do.   It sure isn't easy to copy without getting nailed.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Fencer51 on March 31, 2017, 01:09:06 AM
First of all I am sorry you are angry.  I been back about 2 months and now someone is upset with me, it was a record but alas it is over.  But in my book once someone has stooped so low to cheat or plagiarize, they must always remain suspect when they are unrepentant.  At the time, 7 to 10 years now, I had a directory on my computer that contained all the "proof" you are not seeing now.  Unfortunately it went away along with the 2500 PMs I had on this account after I quit AH a few years ago.

The material he took was the entire skin 1024x1024 bitmap which he modified by painting over areas to make a different aircraft.  Large portions were untouched, which is what made it obvious.  We all reuse the interior bits, there is nothing wrong with that.  If a portion of those need modified, then people modify them but that is not the area affected here.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Fencer51 on March 31, 2017, 01:13:13 AM
I wasn't there, but most of what I see on this stuff is unique.  If it were copied then it would have been a duplicate skin. 

I think drawing the OD/Yellow horse blanket and red horse symbol on the rudder isn't easy to do.   It sure isn't easy to copy without getting nailed.

The fact he could use a graphics program is not at issue.  The base of what he used for his canvas was the issue.  Whether that particular skin was in anyway part of someone else's work, is unknown to me.  But in the past it did occur.  I just never spent the time after finding it once to police his work.  HTC knew his history and if they wanted his work in game, it was their business.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Skuzzy on March 31, 2017, 05:46:52 AM
I really think it irrelevant as to how any of the current skins ended up in the game and has taken this thread way off the intended path.

Talking about people, who are no longer around, is not going to do anything for anyone.

Is it at all possible to keep the original skin credit for updates that preserve the original artwork?   Or a double credit? 

Example: 55FG/343FS by Mus51/Vraciu

I wouldn't feel right taking the credit for work that's better than my own.  Either way, I'm still wanting to update this one. 

If you think you are going to simply be able to add a couple of maps to an existing skin and be done with it, you are setting yourself up for some disappointment.

Many of these older skins have baked in effects which need to be removed.  In most cases, it is going to take a lot of work to clean them up and get them fit for AH3.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Fencer51 on March 31, 2017, 07:52:13 AM
My appologies Skuzzy.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: oboe on March 31, 2017, 08:12:49 AM
Q: Do "baked in" effects really need to be removed?   Is that part of the new standard for AH3 skins?   

Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Skuzzy on March 31, 2017, 12:12:34 PM
Q: Do "baked in" effects really need to be removed?   Is that part of the new standard for AH3 skins?

Any effect done to simulate depth should be removed as the normal map is the proper way to get there.  Using color to add a bit more punch to the depth is fine.

Anything simulating specular, reflections, or shadows, save ambient occlusion as we do not model that yet, should be removed.

Basically, let the light engine do its job and use the maps to control the lighting of the object.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: oboe on March 31, 2017, 01:51:36 PM
I think I recall Greebo telling me he leaves a little bit of the "baked in" effects in the diffuse map, but has the majority of the effects coded in the appropriate map.  Is that OK?

And I think it was Devil505 in one of Vraciu's threads who talked about the Normal map not being able to handle very fine, shallow depressions - that these show up as blocky areas on the skin in game, and that he was going to continue to show fine, shallow depressions in his diffuse maps.    I think the example used was the B-29 skin.
I also think you said it was caused by a bug, and its on the list to be fixed?

If all the depth effects are handled by the normal map, what will a skin look like for a player who turns off bump mapping to maximize his frame rate?  Will he basically see a flat skin?





Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Skuzzy on March 31, 2017, 01:57:47 PM
The normal map artifacts are a side effect of texture compression.  We would like to correct that one.  I would not do anything to attempt to work-around those artifacts.  Just ignore them, for right now and assume one day it will all be beautiful.

Yes, disabling bump mapping does disable the normal, power, and environment maps.  It will disable specular too if the skin has an alpha channel.  That should not make any difference to the skinner.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Vraciu on April 01, 2017, 02:23:01 PM
If you think you are going to simply be able to add a couple of maps to an existing skin and be done with it, you are setting yourself up for some disappointment.

Many of these older skins have baked in effects which need to be removed.  In most cases, it is going to take a lot of work to clean them up and get them fit for AH3.

I am still wanting to give it a try.  It will take some work but I can get it done I think.   <S>
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Vraciu on April 28, 2017, 02:51:49 AM
Bump.   I can do it.   Am I still in the D-League?  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Vraciu on April 28, 2017, 08:21:40 PM
Bump.   I can do it.   Am I still in the D-League?  :headscratch:

Hmmmm...

Well, if I am not allowed to adopt (half a dozen respectful requests have not been acknowledged so I make an assumption that may be wrong) I will ask the question: Can you dump some of these to open up slots for active players?   Maybe your data shows that certain skins are never used--so nobody would complain if they're retired. 


I think I can make a difference with some of the orphans (like this one) if given the opportunity.  They'll look better when I am through than they do now any way...and it costs you nothing.  :salute
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Skuzzy on April 29, 2017, 06:12:42 AM
I am trying to get the 'adopt an orphan' function up and running in the skin admin utility.

I believe I mentioned that before.
Title: Re: Skin Adoption Request/Notice P-51D 55FG/343FS
Post by: Vraciu on April 29, 2017, 11:18:55 AM
I am trying to get the 'adopt an orphan' function up and running in the skin admin utility.

I believe I mentioned that before.

Okay.  Last I heard was you wanted a direct request on an individual basis.  My mistake.  Standing by.   :cheers: