General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Mister Fork on April 04, 2017, 01:57:13 PM
Title: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: Mister Fork on April 04, 2017, 01:57:13 PM
I've been and seen in a lot of WWII aircraft - what gets me is how small and tight spaces some of the cockpits are. For example, the Spitfire is meant for a dude who is 5'7". The P-51 had a good cockpit but a lot of functions built into it. The 109 is cockpit is tiny but highly adjustable depending on the pilot height and leg length. The Hurri could seat a tall pilot easily - think there was one RAF pilot who was 6'5" who flew the Hurri during the BoB. I've personally have sat in a Lancaster, Harvard, Me-109, and a P-51D and seen inside dozens like the P-47, F4U-1, Spitfire V, Fw-190, and a Mosquito, with the 190 with the best layout (and good space) - the 109 second but man it was tight.
So, which aircraft were limited by high for pilots? I heard that any Russian aircraft were built around the function, not the pilot. Who had the best all-around cockpit design for pilots during WWII? Anyone have a top 3?
My #1 (http://www.airventure.de/hahnweide09/1/Hahnweide09_DG_FW190_3.jpg)
My #2 (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/4a/bb/a6/4abba6653292550218552b8090a93736.jpg)
My #3 (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/25/99/be/2599bebe575437689ef4a616a6f7cfce.jpg)
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: KrzyIvan on April 04, 2017, 02:27:53 PM
I can't really give you a top 3 but, what in game initially comes to mind in fighters is the Typhoon/Tempest. They have almost a traditional "6 Pack", nice easy to read flap and engine instrument gauges that are laid out in plain view.
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: Vulcan on April 04, 2017, 04:21:21 PM
When you use VR with AH the first thing you notice is the differences between the cockpits (size etc). Some of them are downright awful.
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: Mister Fork on April 04, 2017, 05:44:19 PM
When you use VR with AH the first thing you notice is the differences between the cockpits (size etc). Some of them are downright awful.
I know! It's what brought up this topic for me.
The P-47 and the Tiffy surprised me - lotsa elbow room in there for a picnic kit and a slurpee from 7-11. And I am surprised how claustrophobic I feel in the 109 or any Spitfire. At least with the 109 it's designed well from a pilot perspective.
Heck - with the Bf-110, if I ditch the tail gunner, could throw the kids and the luggage behind me in the back with the wife on the tailgun and fly out to the cabin on the weekends. :D
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: Vulcan on April 04, 2017, 05:49:37 PM
If you think the Spit and 109 are bad... try the 205.
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: Dawger on April 04, 2017, 05:50:26 PM
The game cockpits are awful. I wouldn't fly a real airplane that put the instruments at eye level.
In a real airplane you look DOWN to see the instruments.
Tight cockpits aren't bad if you have full range of motion for all the controls.
The P38 cockpit with its control wheel arrangement is a good example of maximizing the space.
Large cockpits that put stuff out of reach when the harness is tight are a royal pain. Small is good to a point.
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: DaveBB on April 04, 2017, 05:53:42 PM
The game cockpits are awful. I wouldn't fly a real airplane that put the instruments at eye level.
In a real airplane you look DOWN to see the instruments.
Tight cockpits aren't bad if you have full range of motion for all the controls.
The P38 cockpit with its control wheel arrangement is a good example of maximizing the space.
Large cockpits that put stuff out of reach when the harness is tight are a royal pain. Small is good to a point.
An example of a large cockpit with a bad layout was the SB2C. In order to retract the gear, the pilot had to loosen his shoulder harness to reach the handle. On more than one occassion, while trying to retract the gear during carrier operations, the plane would ditch, and the pilot would be killed from the trauma of hitting his head on the gunsight. Source: The Pacific by Ambrose.
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: Devil 505 on April 04, 2017, 06:33:52 PM
I always thought the A6M was a cool cockpit with it's throttle handle mounted weapon triggers.
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 05, 2017, 06:38:25 AM
Yes it would have to be the 190 and 109 cockpits for their automation and ergonomics. Another factor that speaks in their favor is the enhanced pilot survivability by having explosive bolts jettisoning the canopy, and a one button harness release. How many times have we read about allied pilots getting trapped in the cockpit due to damage... That must have weighed heavily on some pilots' minds. The snug fit in the 109 is not necessarily a negative in a short to medium range fighter. As Rall put it the close confines made you feel at one with the plane.
https://youtu.be/7Sz5t-m9IOE
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: fracca on April 05, 2017, 09:09:21 AM
Not a fighter, but you mentioned the Lancaster up there. I sat in the pilots seat of one years back at a museum and was terrified about how difficult it was to get in and out of, around the control yoke. And I was a kid in jeans and a t-shirt. Ive only sat in a couple of fighters but neither the spit, hurri, or 109 had that same feeling of being trapped.
Considering getting out of the seat wasn't even half the battle of getting out the plane, I'm amazed any pilots managed to bail from lancs.
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: Mister Fork on April 05, 2017, 09:33:09 AM
Not a fighter, but you mentioned the Lancaster up there. I sat in the pilots seat of one years back at a museum and was terrified about how difficult it was to get in and out of, around the control yoke. And I was a kid in jeans and a t-shirt. Ive only sat in a couple of fighters but neither the spit, hurri, or 109 had that same feeling of being trapped.
Considering getting out of the seat wasn't even half the battle of getting out the plane, I'm amazed any pilots managed to bail from lancs.
Most didn't sadly - at least not quickly. Sad to say it, most allied aircraft weren't easy to bail out of. If the control was jammed, and your aircraft is spinning cause it's missing a wing, you're doomed. I was in the Lancaster we have here on display in Calgary. Curator at the time was a Aces High fan himself...dang..what was his name... :rolleyes:
A good friend of mine, Marie, her dad was a 109 pilot (he was from Austria). I don't know their real last name because her dad changed his name when he immigrated to Canada. Anyways, he was shot down three times and survived all three. Last time he was captured by the allied forces. He attributed that amazing feat when I asked him as a kid on the fact that he just did - I didn't know about explosive bolts or anything else...now it makes sense how easy is was to bail out of his 109. Just thought he was lucky. As an adult, wish I had the sense to record conversations with him before he passed on. And his experience was the norm for most German 109/190 pilots...no?
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 05, 2017, 10:03:18 AM
There were pilots who survived a dozen bailouts from 109s and 190s. In the final months of the war Heinkel also developed the ejection seat which was used on the He 219 night fighter and the He 162 Volksjager.
https://youtu.be/5-DnqEbARL4
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: Karnak on April 05, 2017, 10:28:24 AM
Fw190, best.
Bf109, worst.
All others somewhere in between.
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 05, 2017, 10:42:49 AM
What characteristics of the 109 cockpit make it the "worst" in your opinion Karnak?
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: pipz on April 05, 2017, 04:45:05 PM
The Corsair has the best cockpit view. After that a kinda close second is the F-16 ! :old: :D
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: Vraciu on April 05, 2017, 06:32:00 PM
I tried sitting in the cockpit of a CAF Buchon years ago. I was too tall to get the canopy closed.
The Mustang was a little better.
The F4U, otoh, seemed gigantic by comparison. YUGE. The Jug was also pretty big.
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: Karnak on April 06, 2017, 12:00:03 AM
What characteristics of the 109 cockpit make it the "worst" in your opinion Karnak?
Too small. Can't effectively turn to check 6. Spitfire is small, but noticeably larger and much easier to see out of.
Obviously bubble canopies like on the P-51, late P-47s and late Tiffies are best. Fw190's cockpit layout is superb as well.
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 06, 2017, 12:14:39 AM
Strange... This guy seems to have no problems moving around and looking back.
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: Vulcan on April 06, 2017, 05:17:49 AM
Looking around is one thing, what he sees is different. The 109 has a very square canopy (improved with the 'galland hood'), with some quite thick obstructions. There is not a lot of leeway when moving your head to see around those.
With VR you have 6 degrees of freedom (like trackir) but the added stereo 3D view and it really being in your face gives you a much better appreciation for the size of the cockpit. Even the size of various airframes becomes more noticeable.
I have a theory that one reason people find some aircraft 'invincible' is the smaller airframes and landing less hits are connecting. I only really started appreciating this when you can compare in true 3D.
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: bozon on April 06, 2017, 06:00:41 AM
There were pilots who survived a dozen bailouts from 109s and 190s. In the final months of the war Heinkel also developed the ejection seat which was used on the He 219 night fighter and the He 162 Volksjager.
https://youtu.be/5-DnqEbARL4
Cockpits that are easy to bail out of are important when you are on the losing side of the war...
FW190 has the most modern looking cockpit.
Mosquito has some pieces in awkward places. For example, the pilot has to switch hands and hold the stick with his left in order to raise the gears with his right - and he has to do it in the most dangerous time when he is still flying under the safe speed for one engine, and really needs the left to handle the throttles. Some gauges are in out of the way places. I assume they were meant to be monitored by the navigator only.
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: save on April 07, 2017, 08:54:52 AM
The Kommandogeräte of the 190 made it probably the plane with lowest workload when it was up in the air, on the ground it was a PITA, according to the pilots, due to it's visibility over the nose.
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: 4462 on April 07, 2017, 01:54:09 PM
Thanks for posting the videos :aok
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: DaveBB on April 07, 2017, 06:03:53 PM
Unarmed yes, but the only armor not present is the plate behind the head.
remember that the early 109G's have excellent thrust to weight ratios.
Every pound counts. It is also likely less-than-fully fueled.
I am saying this climb is not necessarily representative of true climb performance, for good or bad. Too many variables to say with any accuracy. Power is less than it should be but so is weight, and I doubt the differences are proportional.
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: Oldman731 on April 08, 2017, 12:20:08 AM
"I open the fuel cock into the 'both' position..."
Both? Where were the fuel tanks on a 109?
- oldman (nice video, btw)
Title: Re: Best cockpits for fighter pilots...
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 08, 2017, 12:54:43 AM
Only one L-shaped tank behind and underneath the pilot's seat Oldman. However, two fuel pumps are provided, P1 and P2. P1 draws fuel from the rear of the tank, while P2 draws fuel from the front. A selector switch located below the throttle quadrant is used to switch between the fuel pumps, with the options of ZU (both off), P1 (rear pump), P2 (front pump), and P1+P2 (both).