Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Oldman731 on April 10, 2017, 03:30:07 PM
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Peter Garrison's "Technicalities" column in this month's "Flying" magazine is interesting, not so much for answering this question, as for all of the insight into the Sopwith Camel, and rotary engine planes in general. Among his observations:
Camels rolled equally rapidly in either direction, but the downward slicing of the nose in a rapid right turn, and the consequent acceleration, made pilots feel that they “turned better” to the right than to the left, and gave rise to the canard, repeated in Wikipedia, that Camels could make a 270 to the right more quickly than a 90 to the left.
The full article is here:
http://www.flyingmag.com/technicalities-why-left
- oldman
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The PIC sits on the left. Left traffic is standard for that reason. How we got there? Don't ask me.
Helo PICs OTOH sit in the right seat. The reason for that is how the first cadre of instructor pilots were taught, or so they say...
I believe Garrison wrote years ago that someone did an experiment with a Camel or exact replica and disproved this whole tale. I'll have to read this article and see what the new wrinkle is.
Interstingly, since most fighters are flown with a stick in the right hand the tendency for breaks is to the left. That's what an old Marine warhorse told me years ago. I've noticed I have the same tendency in the game. Go figure.
Any way, Garrison is the only thing in FLYING that's worth reading any more. Too bad...
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Depending upon the airport, the 'standard' may be determined by the runway, and to be honest I see as many right hand as left hand patterns. Direction nowadays is usually dependent on the runway and whether there is anything (another runway, residential area, etc) that they don't want you flying over in the standard box pattern.
Mike
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The PIC sits on the left. Left traffic is standard for that reason. How we got there? Don't ask me.
Helo PICs OTOH sit in the right seat.
And helicopters fly opposite patterns!
- oldman
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And helicopters fly opposite patterns!
- oldman
Yes, for simplicity of ground control and so forth. Fixed wing have the right of way.
Generally planes tended to go left due to torque in WWII times (acceptions being Yaks, Spit14 and other such planes). Sometime back I remember seeing a link for diagrams that compared the change in turn circles for various warbird planes making left and right performance turns.
In most casses it doesnt seem to make a huge difference accept in the rare equal fight when trying to capitalize on every move as much as possible.
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And helicopters fly opposite patterns!
- oldman
And your point is...? You lost me somewhere...
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What if there is a flashing red light in the segmented circle?
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NASCAR.........
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And your point is...? You lost me somewhere...
In both instances - for standard pattern airports - the pilots sit on the inside of the turn.
- oldman
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In both instances - for standard pattern airports - the pilots sit on the inside of the turn.
- oldman
Gotcha. You'd lost me in the turn. Pun intended. :rofl
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Helo PICs OTOH sit in the right seat. The reason for that is how the first cadre of instructor pilots were taught, or so they say...
In the helicopter world (of which I used to be a part) it's common for PIC to be left seat as well. Especially in long line and construction operations.
I was on a construction job with many helicopters for a year. The MD500D and 600N and 2 Huey's (204 and 205) and the Erickson Skycrane all flew PIC from the left seat (the usual standard for part 133 external load operations) But the AS350B flew PIC from the right seat (only because A-Stars have a belly window with which to see the line)
I know a guy who built his RV-7 and PICs it from the right seat, only because he like the throttle in his left hand.
It just depends.
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And helicopters fly opposite patterns!
- oldman
When I used to work with them, helicopters almost never flew patterns. In fact I think I only ever saw it at the flight school. In the real world it was always just fly straight to hangar/ramp. Maybe it's common elsewhere... IDK...
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In the helicopter world (of which I used to be a part) it's common for PIC to be left seat as well. Especially in long line and construction operations.
I was on a construction job with many helicopters for a year. The MD500D and 600N and 2 Huey's (204 and 205) and the Erickson Skycrane all flew PIC from the left seat (the usual standard for part 133 external load operations) But the AS350B flew PIC from the right seat (only because A-Stars have a belly window with which to see the line)
I know a guy who built his RV-7 and PICs it from the right seat, only because he like the throttle in his left hand.
It just depends.
Well, things may have changed over the years, but traditionally the helo PIC was/is in the right seat. This was at one time a configuration-dependent situation. With dual cyclic controls that went out the window, but tradition stuck...at least for awhile...partly due to ergonomics. In any event, it dates back to Igor Sikorsky and the first generation of Army helo pilots who became the instructors that taught the first wave how to fly them.
It's one of those things both AIRWOLF and BLUE THUNDER got right. The former because Bellisario was a helo pilot as I recall.
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It is because long ago the airships had their steering oars on the right side so they would pull up to the dock on the left.
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It's because the Greatest plane ever turns better to the left. The BF109 is the airframe I am referring to in case any of you are confused. :neener:
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Because the original early pre-WWI aviators were mostly rich aristocrat hobbyists who were taught that line of dance always turns left on the dance floor. When these barons all got together to fly from a single field, they just followed the same rule - line of dance turns to the left and it is your responsibility to avoid collision with another dancer.
:airplane:
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See rule #4
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We turn left in the pattern because the FARs dictate we turn left and if we don't there is some guy at the FSDO just waiting to have to "stop by for a chat". :)
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Look for the segmented circle.
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The reason the pic sits in the right seat in helos is because the collective is on the left and the cyclic is controlled with the right hand allowing the pilot once he has set the collective set to whatever power setting he needs to use his left hand to use the avionics, other controls, etc located on the center console or overhead console. When helos are conducting long line ops the left seat is used because it allows you to lean further to the left to look out and down out of the bubble window to see what the load is doing or where the hook is when picking up or planting a load, plus you rest your left arm on the window to help stabilize your body. You're not able to lean as far to the right again because the cyclic being manipulated by your right hand limits your ability to lean to the right.
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Well, things may have changed over the years, but traditionally the helo PIC was/is in the right seat. This was at one time a configuration-dependent situation. With dual collective controls that went out the window, but tradition stuck...at least for awhile...partly due to ergonomics. In any event, it dates back to Igor Sikorsky and the first generation of Army helo pilots who became the instructors that taught the first wave how to fly them.
It's one of those things both AIRWOLF and BLUE THUNDER got right. The former because Bellisario was a helo pilot as I recall.
Fixed.
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The only reason you wouldn't have dual sets of controls is to increase passenger capacity. I have flown BH206s and BH212s which had the copilot's cyclic and collective removed to maximize the # of paxs, but a mechanic could reinstall them quite easily. I have seen throw over cyclic set ups, like the R22, but I've haven't seen a set up where the sic had a cyclic only. Doesn't mean that it does not exist, but just does not make any sense. Kinda like the sic on a fixed wing having access only to the rudder pedals and not the yoke.
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Interstingly, since most fighters are flown with a stick in the right hand the tendency for breaks is to the left. That's what an old Marine warhorse told me years ago. I've noticed I have the same tendency in the game. Go figure.
I noticed a long time ago most people have a tendancy to break left then right
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The only reason you wouldn't have dual sets of controls is to increase passenger capacity. I have flown BH206s and BH212s which had the copilot's cyclic and collective removed to maximize the # of paxs, but a mechanic could reinstall them quite easily. I have seen throw over cyclic set ups, like the R22, but I've haven't seen a set up where the sic had a cyclic only. Doesn't mean that it does not exist, but just does not make any sense. Kinda like the sic on a fixed wing having access only to the rudder pedals and not the yoke.
Dual collectives have not always been the norm. The right seat thing stems from that.
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I noticed a long time ago most people have a tendancy to break left then right
It's easier to "push" the stick vs "pull" when moving it lateral.
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Dual collectives have not always been the norm. The right seat thing stems from that.
I think that you are missing the point. The right seat is the PIC seat because the collective is on the left. The collective dose not require constant minor adjustments like the cyclic to maintain stable flight, hence the left hand hand is more readily available to tune radios, avionics, etc, the right hand is not. It has nothing to do with dual flight control set ups.
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I think that you are missing the point. The right seat is the PIC seat because the collective is on the left. The collective dose not require constant minor adjustments like the cyclic to maintain stable flight, hence the left hand hand is more readily available to tune radios, avionics, etc, the right hand is not. It has nothing to do with dual flight control set ups.
I'm not missing the point. I already stated this in my original post.
Dual controls have caused a blurring of the right seat vs left seat thing as mentioned by saggs above but traditionally the PIC is the RSP.
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Left is correct and right is wrong. Ask any of us left handers.
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Left is correct and right is wrong. Ask any of us left handers.
Everybody knows left handers aren't in their right mind!
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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Everybody knows left handers aren't in their right mind!
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Actually we are. Look into what side of the brain controls the left side. :)
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It's because of the rotation of the Earth :old:
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It's because of the rotation of the Earth :old:
Do airplanes with PK'ed pilots spin to the left or right in the Southern Hemisphere? :headscratch: :rofl