General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Flench on April 17, 2017, 04:18:02 AM
Title: WW lll
Post by: Flench on April 17, 2017, 04:18:02 AM
What you guy's think of all that is going on . Do you think we are headed for another big war ? Should we be stocking up on ammo and food ? I for one have been stocking up some but it well not last long if shtf . Well not need it anyway if we get the BIG bombs ... Just wondering what you guys think about all this .
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Bizman on April 17, 2017, 05:08:27 AM
Just wondering what are you preparing for? When was the last time there has been a war between USA and another country on the North American continent?
Agreed, modern missiles and bombs can destroy vast areas. However, knowing that the Chernobyl explosion put 400 times more radioactive material into the Earth's atmosphere than the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima, yet the Exclusion Zone is "only" 1.000 sq mi, 20 mi in diameter.
Further agreed, there's been bombs built over 3000 times the power of the Fat Man. How many of those would be needed to blow the entire planet into smithereens, ending all worrying?
And one further question: What kind of ammo would you stock to stop such bombs? Or are you planning to prepare for helping the enemy by killing your neighbours?
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 17, 2017, 06:03:32 AM
I'm sorry, my sources don't tell about any invasion on the mainland US for that year. Where? By which country?
There's a deep contrast between the preparations and the way I've heard American people take care of their neighbours who have encountered some kind of a catastrophe. A Finn living over there used to be somewhat worried about how they would get along should something happen until she saw how the entire community - instead of social security - took care of some unfortunate family at her neighbourhood. Where do you draw the line? When does someone in need of help become an enemy?
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 17, 2017, 08:07:20 AM
I'm sorry, my sources don't tell about any invasion on the mainland US for that year. Where? By which country?
Ah but that wasn't the question you asked. ;) You asked "When was the last time there has been a war between USA and another country on the North American continent?" In 1989 The U.S. invaded Panama.
When does someone in need of help become an enemy?
When they are many, and desperate, and you don't have enough to share. When those who did not prepare come to take from those who did.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Bizman on April 17, 2017, 08:28:11 AM
Ahh, Panama. I count that into the Middle America, not North.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 17, 2017, 08:38:47 AM
There's no such thing as a "Middle American" continent. Central America including the Caribbean islands are part of the North American continent. "Cental America" is just a region.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Bizman on April 17, 2017, 09:01:45 AM
I stand corrected. It indeed isn't a continent. Lost in translation...
Nevertheless, no invasion into the mainland of US in 1989 if I understand you correctly.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: ghi on April 17, 2017, 09:15:52 AM
The esoteric cabal running the show from shadow could be real, very well explained in the History documentaries bellow; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxaahEuzewE
Depopulation is their first commandment, maintaining population under 500 million; from what i read in prophecies they will succeed to make people scarcer than pure gold; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDszhhNZpwM&t=623s
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Bizman on April 17, 2017, 09:56:02 AM
In case that's true, being prepared would only postpone the inevitable. Such a cabal would outperform any single individual no matter how well prepared against the have nots.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Flench on April 17, 2017, 10:08:34 AM
I just think we all should be prepared to some point . If it got bad over here I bet the army would supply all the ammo and guns but mite not on food , maybe a little bread or something like that but that be at the point where we were starting to lose ..
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Joker on April 17, 2017, 10:52:33 AM
I agree it just makes sense to have a supply of basic essentials on hand. Not only as insurance in the event of a war, but also for major natural disasters or societal breakdown. We have 6 months food, water, and basic supplies stored. Most of it we use anyway and we replace stuff as we use the oldest. I also put in a shallow well with a hand pump to provide fresh water without electricity. Also well supplied with weapons and ammo.
We have extra supplies to help out neighbors in need. Fortunately we don't live anywhere near a large urban area, and most of the folks around here think ahead about these things. You have to bear in mind that your survival preps can be taken away with one bullet.
None of this will matter if there is a major nuclear exchange between the big boys. I don't imagine many of us would be left after a year or two at the most. One thing I worry about some is an EMP attack, or a cyberattack on our power infrastructure. Read One Second After by Forstchen or Lights Out by Koppel. Scary stuff, especially as it seems doable by the minor players.
A good idea to prepare to some extent. but you can make yourself crazy with it.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Bizman on April 17, 2017, 10:55:57 AM
Preparing for any type of catastrophe by storing some food and water plus means of heating and lighting without electricity for a week or two is sane. In a civilized world things should normalize in that time.
Preparing for being the last man standing of the entire mankind... Well, it might get a little lonely towards the end.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: zack1234 on April 17, 2017, 11:14:00 AM
I have three candles and a tin of beans :old:
Its defo the end :old:
I love you all :old:
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: JOACH1M on April 17, 2017, 11:18:16 AM
I want a laser i can point and melt people with.
Only way ill feel safe.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: dentin on April 17, 2017, 11:28:00 AM
Buckle-up, enjoy the ride. :old:
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 17, 2017, 11:38:53 AM
I don't see anyone saying they're doing that. Do you?
In this thread? No. On TV where they have had several programs about preparing, between the lines yes. Also in some other thread here several years ago, between the lines yes.
And, to be honest, that's what I'm reading between the lines in your first post in this thread:
Quote
---When those who did not prepare come to take from those who did.
I know that's not what you intended to express, but it can be read that way. The haves preparing to kill the have nots if the latter refuse to settle for what they've got and silently die when they run out of supplies.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 17, 2017, 12:16:38 PM
And, to be honest, that's what I'm reading between the lines in your first post in this thread: I know that's not what you intended to express, but it can be read that way. The haves preparing to kill the have nots if the latter refuse to settle for what they've got and silently die when they run out of supplies.
If I'm the "last man standing of the entire mankind" how can anyone attack me for my stuff? Zombies? You're making no sense at all.
Stocking up on ammo is for when there are lots of people still around. Too many people for the limited supplies left. It all depends on the nature of the disaster. In case of a major nuclear war, like the OP is thinking about, food production will be next to nonexistent for several years. And since only a small percentage of the population has anywhere near the required stored supplies there will be a civil war.
There are 7 billion people on Earth and our agricultural production is at its limit. Most people won't die in the blasts, or of the fallout. Most people will just starve or die fighting for the scraps.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: zack1234 on April 17, 2017, 12:28:40 PM
Gibberish
We are not at our limit of food production :old:
And its NOT WWIII :old:
You cant fix stupid :old:
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Meatwad on April 17, 2017, 01:05:51 PM
What you guy's think of all that is going on . Do you think we are headed for another big war ? Should we be stocking up on ammo and food ? I for one have been stocking up some but it well not last long if shtf . Well not need it anyway if we get the BIG bombs ... Just wondering what you guys think about all this .
No. Too many chicken littles creating sensationalism news crying doom and gloom over nothing
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Ramesis on April 17, 2017, 01:18:22 PM
My philosophy... I don't worry about it... if something happens... if it doesn't... then it doesn't BTW... I'm old enough to remember the days of duck and cover :old: Having lived on AFBs that were likely targets of "the bomb" most of my childhood, I have learned not to care :aok
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Bizman on April 17, 2017, 01:34:57 PM
If I'm the "last man standing of the entire mankind" how can anyone attack me for my stuff? Zombies? You're making no sense at all.
Stocking up on ammo is for when there are lots of people still around. Too many people for the limited supplies left. It all depends on the nature of the disaster. In case of a major nuclear war, like the OP is thinking about, food production will be next to nonexistent for several years. And since only a small percentage of the population has anywhere near the required stored supplies there will be a civil war.
There are 7 billion people on Earth and our agricultural production is at its limit. Most people won't die in the blasts, or of the fallout. Most people will just starve or die fighting for the scraps.
Zombies? No. I was merely thinking about people within a certain area all protecting their stuff. Those who have little will soon run out of it, be it food or ammo. Those with large supplies of both can protect their stock until they run out of one or the other. Lots of food would allow them to rot in their trenches, lots of ammo would allow them to attack less armed food owners. In either case, supposing it's a major nuke scenario, there'd be only one having the last portion of food, the rest having either starved or killed. At first there'd most likely be a civil war as you said, but when the supplies become sparser the fight will turn from group to group into person to person.
Of course there'd be more than just one single man standing in such scenario, but the other single survivors would be beyond your ability to carry your stock. Remember that gas stations would not work without electricity so driving would not be an option for very long. A bicycle with a cart would be the fastest vehicle available as long as you've got spare tires and/or patches. A two-three week one way trip if you can't find any additions. Some 20 miles a day if the roads still were usable. Not to mention having to be alert for another survivor who'd only want your stuff, not your company. As you said, starving or die fighting for the scraps. At the end there'll be one last man standing within the ability to travel.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 17, 2017, 01:41:40 PM
Most preppers don't plan on moving a lot. They hunker down and wait it out. The people who will be moving about are the non-preppers who have to scavenge and loot and kill to survive. They are why preppers need ammo. To defend themselves.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Copprhed on April 17, 2017, 02:01:15 PM
IN.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 17, 2017, 02:27:18 PM
Been reading on the EMP . That would set us back 100 year's or like living back then .
Yes, and repairing the damage would take months or years. Think about everything we do that depends on electricity. Even most newer cars would not run due to damage to their electronic components. That means, among many other problems, no food deliveries, no fuel deliveries, and no production of any goods for some time. Municipal water and sewage systems would be offline.
AND.....no Aces High! :eek:
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the worrisome thing about this is that it doesn't require 50 or 100 warheads to cause the damage. I've read that even a single warhead detonated several hundred miles above the eastern half of the country could black out the east coast. If there were even 3 or 4 it could shut down the entire continental US. It's not unrealistic to think that Iran or NoKo could pull off an attack like this sooner or later.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: zack1234 on April 18, 2017, 12:11:54 AM
Does Hitech have a board game version of AHIII available?
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Flench on April 18, 2017, 03:18:08 AM
Does Hitech have a board game version of AHIII available?
Be some thin to start workin on , LOL
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Brooke on April 18, 2017, 03:37:54 AM
Flench, I think it's unlikely to be needed, but I have food and water just in case. It is cheap enough and easy enough to do that I figure it is worth it.
I get 5 gallon mylar bags, 5 gal buckets, and 2000 cc oxygen absorbers. I put pinto beans or long grain white rice into the bag, put in one oxygen absorber, heat seal the bag most of the way, push out air, then seal the rest, then put on bucket lid. Rice + beans = complete protein (i.e., you can survive off of it for a long time).
Each bucket of rice (or beans) is about 1 man-month of calories, will keep for 30 years, and costs about $20 to do. So, you do some of them, and you are covered for emergency supplies and don't need to worry about it thereafter.
For water, I get a Sawyer Products Mini Water Filtration System, which will filter out all bacteria and most viruses from water and last nearly forever. It's $20.
Emergency supplies can work for natural disasters, too -- doesn't hurt to have some around if its cheap enough and easy enough to do.
I'm too lazy to have a lot of canned food and rotate through it. But I can handle making some buckets of rice and some buckets of beans once in my life for $20 per bucket and having around a water filter.
I have enough for Zack if he happens to be in my neighborhood when disaster strikes. I'm lacking freeze-dried meat pies, though, so he might grumble.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: zack1234 on April 18, 2017, 07:19:08 AM
I am small and will eat acorns :old:
If there is a disaster will there be fatties?
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Joker on April 18, 2017, 08:02:28 AM
I had a wake up call about this some years back when a major hurricane came through the area and we had no power for 19 days. Travel was also very difficult for the first 4-5 days. The house was destroyed. We had prepared to some extent but had not anticipated the level of damage we got. As Brooke mentioned, some very basic and inexpensive preparations can go a long ways toward helping you get through a difficult situation. You won't ever need them, God willing.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Mister Fork on April 18, 2017, 09:15:52 AM
We don't know how WWIII will start - not really. But what I do know is that WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Bizman on April 18, 2017, 09:26:56 AM
Brooke, do you ever eat the rice and beans you've stored? Oh, I re-read your post and found the answer.
In my opinion that type of storing is a waste of resources. There's people literally starving to death and there's people saving food hoping they could throw it away after some decades. One might think that storing and rotating canned food is out of use in the same manner, but in my thinking that is considered as delayed consuming instead of delayed composting.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Joker on April 18, 2017, 09:55:08 AM
Biz, IMHO the amount of food that Brooke is talking about is small for one family. Of course, if everyone did this it would be a sizable amount. And if I knew someone who was starving right now I would give them food out of my stored supplies.
If there ever is a disaster of some type, folks who have stored food will not be out there competing with the have-nots for scarce resources. That will improve the situation a little for those people at the height of the crisis.
I think it's a little unrealistic to believe that no large scale crisis is going to ever occur, and if it does that you can depend on the government or "someone else" to provide for you and your family.
Besides that, do you have a savings account for emergency expenses?
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Ripsnort on April 18, 2017, 10:04:15 AM
$1500 cash , $500 gold coins in a safe. (Most currency or gold will be worthless, ammunition and cigarettes will be the "new" currency in a SHTF scenario) 10,000 rds of ammunition for 8 caliber types. Unlimited water source (river 1/4 mile away) and two rain barreled gutters. Water treatment for 10,000 gallons of water. 2 months of food supplies, various dried and MRE for a family of 4. 50 lbs of salt, 50 lbs of sugar (for curing wild game) 1 month of generator fuel. 1 month of propane fuel. 3 cords of wood. Ample deer and elk in the backyard.
In a pinch, we could stretch it to 4 months at 2000 calories a day.
Ever since 9/11/2001, I've used the anniversary to rotate stock and add more stuff.
And I don't think NK will start WW3. My biggest concern is Mt. Rainier, 25 miles away or a debilitating earthquake that stops the flow of food to the area for a few weeks.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: alskahawk on April 18, 2017, 10:14:25 AM
I have felt for some time (long before the current administration) that the world is heading to a major war if things don't change. A lot of factors have been point to it; Russian incursion into their border countries. China military build up, US military. Middle east tensions. Artic ice melting, Russia re building bases in the Artic. The big three have been expanding their respective military's.
Russia may not be militarily ready for war but they are pushing ahead with an aggressive agenda. Historically this is the first time since the 1700's that there hasn't been a world war in the first half of a century. China may be publically trying to nudge North Korea away from their current stance, but China is a historical ally of North Korea.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 18, 2017, 10:25:33 AM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Gman on April 18, 2017, 10:39:18 AM
Quote
Besides that, do you have a savings account for emergency expenses?
IMO having an electronic account is useless in many emergencies. Joker how well did the ATMs work during yours? - same thing happened up here with ice storms. No sparky = no money, at least from your bank. Probably 1/2 of the catastrophes one can whip up involve the banks either being gone, or inaccessible. If you're going to keep an emergency account, keep it in cash, but be prepared for that cash not to mean much in rapid order too, back that up as Ripsnort has said, with barter items of high value, precious metals, common calibers of ammunition, some cheap rifles (SKS, etc) that in a future where they aren't easily available they could be worth a fortune in trade for food, medical treatment/supplies, etc.
Ask anyone who runs a store that sells food, even a small mom/pop - they all operate on a "just in time" stocking system. In a crisis, it might as well be called "out of time". One day is all it takes for shelves to be completely emptied, events such as Joker's and many others have proven this time and again. Plus, in a real collapse of society, IMO the places where food/supplies/weapons/etc are stocked and sold will be absolute battlegrounds - imagine there being no L/E available to stop fights over people trying to feed their screaming kids.
IMO the most important feature of planning for the worst case scenarios - but regular emergencies too, is fostering relationships with like minded people. In order to maintain security - if you pipe up about having weapons, this is the entire point of having them - to have a single OP and another person on comms to receive reports from that OP and wake everyone else up if there is trouble, you need at least a dozen people. Minimum, to maintain that OP 24/7, 3 shifts x 2 people per day, will rapidly exhaust any fewer than 12, and that's the bare, bare minimum. See what I'm getting at? You have to sleep sometime, so if you're serious about "protecting what is yours", you'll never be able to reliably do it unless you have help and cooperation with others nearby in your AO. You can have all the supplies and firepower in the world, but if you don't have a group of people you trust planning to do the same in a community/location with you, IMO you won't last long, at least in one of the nightmare collapse types of worst case scenarios.
FWIW, I think that the weapons/ammo end of things is the very last spoke in the wheel, having enough food, clean water, the ability to get more clean water, medical supplies, batteries/off grid power, emergency funds, trustworthy people nearby, a good defensible location, etc, is far, far more important if funds are limited. Dedicated "firepower" is the very last thing I would concern myself with, but if you're flush with $, something I certainly would want as well. Reality is that you're far more likely to have need of supplies than weapons, there are many like Joker that have gone through some sort of storm, flood, whatever, and not fired round one during it, but still needed water, food and medication/etc.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Randall172 on April 18, 2017, 10:47:34 AM
if you were to hit every major highway intersection, citizens in cities would starve rather quickly.
but in a nuclear exchange, top 50 us cities by population would be doubled up on, while the top 10 would be tripled up on just to be thorough.
so good luck.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Bizman on April 18, 2017, 11:16:36 AM
Joker, indeed I expanded the idea to global measurements, not trying to point my finger towards any singe individual. Many small streams etc.
In case of a major disaster the haves would be a non significant minority especially in cities where people have got used to having an empty fridge, mostly eating out. I've learned that in the USA even having breakfast at home is more of a Kellogg's ad ideal especially for singles or dinks whereas finding a breakfast restaurant here can be challenging... Should a large scale crisis cripple the food distribution in cities there might be a Völkerwanderung to the countryside. Actually, I recently heard that starvation caused by climate changes caused by volcanic activity (The Hatepe eruption?) was the reason why the Huns left their home and attacked Europe.
Ripsnort, that amount of ammunition sounds quite a lot! We are allowed for 20,000 rounds at a time at home, according to a columnist that amount should be enough even for the active sports shooter let alone the average hunter. There's about 650,000 gun owners here, about 1 out of 9 of the entire population. So everyone probably knows someone who owns a gun, having access to firearms is another matter. Should something happen here, we'd be at the mercy of our authorities.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Ripsnort on April 18, 2017, 11:54:11 AM
Gman hit on a weak spot in my prep, medicines/emergency stuff. Neither the wife nor I require any medications so that's not an issue.
Gman, what would you recommend for a field emergency kit? Like basics? (Scalpel, bandages, etc) for "emergency room" type accidents in a situation where we're isolated for quite some time?
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: zack1234 on April 18, 2017, 12:12:11 PM
I have felt for some time (long before the current administration) that the world is heading to a major war if things don't change. A lot of factors have been point to it; Russian incursion into their border countries. China military build up, US military. Middle east tensions. Artic ice melting, Russia re building bases in the Artic. The big three have been expanding their respective military's.
Russia may not be militarily ready for war but they are pushing ahead with an aggressive agenda. Historically this is the first time since the 1700's that there hasn't been a world war in the first half of a century. China may be publically trying to nudge North Korea away from their current stance, but China is a historical ally of North Korea.
:rofl
So its war then :banana:
Wars = profit :)
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Chris79 on April 18, 2017, 12:51:01 PM
There will be no large scale global war, eventually the losing side lobs nukes. There will be no large scale nuclear war, because no matter how despotic a country's leader may be, the instinct for self preservation will win the day. The nut with 1 nuke concerns me the most, there is always one crackpot out there that is willing to "Martyor" themselves.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Joker on April 18, 2017, 12:59:40 PM
When the hurricane hit us GMan, it's true, you couldn't get money out of the bank or ATM. But I had enough cash for that time and our problem didn't last all that long before the town started getting back on its feet. It did get me thinking though.
One of the major problems in the event of an EMP attack would be transportation. You won't be able to drive anywhere.
If we are now talking about really major provisions for a long term scenario, things get completely different. The mental masturbation you can go through about "what if" can provide hours of entertainment. I'm like Rip.....I have some 90% silver coins ( no gold ) to possibly be used as currency if/when paper money is worthless. Silver is relatively cheap right now, BTW. Also about 30,000 rounds ammo of various calibers. A chunk of that is .22LR partially for barter. As for medical, since I am a physician I have access to medical supplies and medications, so I keep some on hand for emergencies. The well I put down is an endless supply of fresh water, and we live on a large body of water that has plenty of fish. We also live in a very rural area with plenty of deer and bear although I think they would be hunted out before long if they were to become a major part of the daily diet in the area. Because of where I live there are lots of hunters and lots of gun owners. I have a group of neighbors who are all willing to band together in an emergency ( we did in the last one ). Also have family members in this area who would stick with us. I have to remember that all of these folks will require food and provisions.
If you really want to think about this, here's a list that has been floating around the net for some time. You'll laugh, but after I read One Second After the first thing that occurred to me was what would I be thinking as I used up my last roll of toilet paper?
100 Items to Disappear First
1. Generators (Good ones cost dearly. Gas storage, risky. Noisy...target of thieves; maintenance etc.) 2. Water Filters/Purifiers 3. Portable Toilets 4. Seasoned Firewood. Wood takes about 6 - 12 months to become dried, for home uses. 5. Lamp Oil, Wicks, Lamps (First Choice: Buy CLEAR oil. If scarce, stockpile ANY!) 6. Coleman Fuel. Impossible to stockpile too much. 7. Guns, Ammunition, Pepper Spray, Knives, Clubs, Bats & Slingshots. 8. Hand-can openers, & hand egg beaters, whisks. 9. Honey/Syrups/white, brown sugar 10. Rice - Beans - Wheat 11. Vegetable Oil (for cooking) Without it food burns/must be boiled etc.,) 12. Charcoal, Lighter Fluid (Will become scarce suddenly) 13. Water Containers (Urgent Item to obtain.) Any size. Small: HARD CLEAR PLASTIC ONLY - note - food grade if for drinking. 14. Mini Heater head (Propane) (Without this item, propane won't heat a room.) 15. Grain Grinder (Non-electric) 16. Propane Cylinders (Urgent: Definite shortages will occur. 17. Survival Guide Book. 18. Mantles: Aladdin, Coleman, etc. (Without this item, longer-term lighting is difficult.) 19. Baby Supplies: Diapers/formula. ointments/aspirin, etc. 20. Washboards, Mop Bucket w/wringer (for Laundry) 21. Cookstoves (Propane, Coleman & Kerosene) 22. Vitamins 23. Propane Cylinder Handle-Holder (Urgent: Small canister use is dangerous without this item) 24. Feminine Hygiene/Haircare/Skin products. 25. Thermal underwear (Tops & Bottoms) 26. Bow saws, axes and hatchets, Wedges (also, honing oil) 27. Aluminum Foil Reg. & Heavy Duty (Great Cooking and Barter Item) 28. Gasoline Containers (Plastic & Metal) 29. Garbage Bags (Impossible To Have Too Many). 30. Toilet Paper, Kleenex, Paper Towels 31. Milk - Powdered & Condensed (Shake Liquid every 3 to 4 months) 32. Garden Seeds (Non-Hybrid) (A MUST) 33. Clothes pins/line/hangers (A MUST) 34. Coleman's Pump Repair Kit 35. Tuna Fish (in oil) 36. Fire Extinguishers (or..large box of Baking Soda in every room) 37. First aid kits 38. Batteries (all sizes...buy furthest-out for Expiration Dates) 39. Garlic, spices & vinegar, baking supplies 40. Big Dogs (and plenty of dog food) 41. Flour, yeast & salt 42. Matches. {"Strike Anywhere" preferred.) Boxed, wooden matches will go first 43. Writing paper/pads/pencils, solar calculators 44. Insulated ice chests (good for keeping items from freezing in Wintertime.) 45. Workboots, belts, Levis & durable shirts 46. Flashlights/LIGHTSTICKS & torches, "No. 76 Dietz" Lanterns 47. Journals, Diaries & Scrapbooks (jot down ideas, feelings, experience; Historic Times) 48. Garbage cans Plastic (great for storage, water, transporting - if with wheels) 49. Men's Hygiene: Shampoo, Toothbrush/paste, Mouthwash/floss, nail clippers, etc 50. Cast iron cookware (sturdy, efficient) 51. Fishing supplies/tools 52. Mosquito coils/repellent, sprays/creams 53. Duct Tape 54. Tarps/stakes/twine/nails/rope/spikes 55. Candles 56. Laundry Detergent (liquid) 57. Backpacks, Duffel Bags 58. Garden tools & supplies 59. Scissors, fabrics & sewing supplies 60. Canned Fruits, Veggies, Soups, stews, etc. 61. Bleach (plain, NOT scented: 4 to 6% sodium hypochlorite) 62. Canning supplies, (Jars/lids/wax) 63. Knives & Sharpening tools: files, stones, steel 64. Bicycles...Tires/tubes/pumps/chains, etc 65. Sleeping Bags & blankets/pillows/mats 66. Carbon Monoxide Alarm (battery powered) 67. Board Games, Cards, Dice 68. d-con Rat poison, MOUSE PRUFE II, Roach Killer 69. Mousetraps, Ant traps & cockroach magnets 70. Paper plates/cups/utensils (stock up, folks) 71. Baby wipes, oils, waterless & Antibacterial soap (saves a lot of water) 72. Rain gear, rubberized boots, etc. 73. Shaving supplies (razors & creams, talc, after shave) 74. Hand pumps & siphons (for water and for fuels) 75. Soysauce, vinegar, bullions/gravy/soupbase 76. Reading glasses 77. Chocolate/Cocoa/Tang/Punch (water enhancers) 78. "Survival-in-a-Can" 79. Woolen clothing, scarves/ear-muffs/mittens 80. Boy Scout Handbook, / also Leaders Catalog 81. Roll-on Window Insulation Kit (MANCO) 82. Graham crackers, saltines, pretzels, Trail mix/Jerky 83. Popcorn, Peanut Butter, Nuts 84. Socks, Underwear, T-shirts, etc. (extras) 85. Lumber (all types) 86. Wagons & carts (for transport to and from) 87. Cots & Inflatable mattress's 88. Gloves: Work/warming/gardening, etc. 89. Lantern Hangers 90. Screen Patches, glue, nails, screws,, nuts & bolts 91. Teas 92. Coffee 93. Cigarettes 94. Wine/Liquors (for bribes, medicinal, etc,) 95. Paraffin wax 96. Glue, nails, nuts, bolts, screws, etc. 97. Chewing gum/candies 98. Atomizers (for cooling/bathing) 99. Hats & cotton neckerchiefs 100. Goats/chickens
From a Sarajevo War Survivor: Experiencing horrible things that can happen in a war - death of parents and friends, hunger and malnutrition, endless freezing cold, fear, sniper attacks.
1. Stockpiling helps. but you never no how long trouble will last, so locate near renewable food sources. 2. Living near a well with a manual pump is like being in Eden. 3. After awhile, even gold can lose its luster. But there is no luxury in war quite like toilet paper. Its surplus value is greater than gold's. 4. If you had to go without one utility, lose electricity - it's the easiest to do without (unless you're in a very nice climate with no need for heat.) 5. Canned foods are awesome, especially if their contents are tasty without heating. One of the best things to stockpile is canned gravy - it makes a lot of the dry unappetizing things you find to eat in war somewhat edible. Only needs enough heat to "warm", not to cook. It's cheap too, especially if you buy it in bulk. 6. Bring some books - escapist ones like romance or mysteries become more valuable as the war continues. Sure, it's great to have a lot of survival guides, but you'll figure most of that out on your own anyway - trust me, you'll have a lot of time on your hands. 7. The feeling that you're human can fade pretty fast. I can't tell you how many people I knew who would have traded a much needed meal for just a little bit of toothpaste, rouge, soap or cologne. Not much point in fighting if you have to lose your humanity. These things are morale-builders like nothing else. 8. Slow burning candles and matches, matches, matches
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 18, 2017, 01:00:46 PM
There will be no large scale global war, eventually the losing side lobs nukes. There will be no large scale nuclear war, because no matter how despotic a country's leader may be, the instinct for self preservation will win the day. The nut with 1 nuke concerns me the most, there is always one crackpot out there that is willing to "Martyor" themselves.
You obviously have far more faith in the rationality of human beings than I.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Bizman on April 18, 2017, 01:13:07 PM
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Shuffler on April 18, 2017, 01:25:58 PM
Our group has at least one room in each of our homes for supplies. Including guns and ammunition to protect those supplies. At this time 2 homes have installed underground bunkers. We have fuel , generators, wood, 3 wells... 1 is very deep. You should always be prepared.
We have 1 doctor and 2 nurses in the group.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Brooke on April 18, 2017, 01:36:17 PM
In my opinion that type of storing is a waste of resources. There's people literally starving to death and there's people saving food hoping they could throw it away after some decades. One might think that storing and rotating canned food is out of use in the same manner, but in my thinking that is considered as delayed consuming instead of delayed composting.
If you want a society to be prepared for emergency, the most cost-effective, best, easiest way to do it is some buckets of rice and beans. It is way less cost and far less effort than a rotating cache of other food.
Also, whether you make up some rice and beans and keep it forever or eat your rice and beans but then buy more to replenish the amount you ate, the math is exactly the same: there is X amount sitting there not being eaten at all times, and there is X of it sitting there when I die, to be used, given away, or thrown out by my heirs.
Even if there were a difference (which there isn't) between the wastage of food between rotating and not rotating:
1. It's for an emergency, like if you buy batteries or flashlights or a spare radio or some emergency blankets or a 1st aid kit that sit there unused except for an emergency.
2. That rice and beans I bought was never going to starving people. It would either be bought by people who aren't starving or be thrown out as excess. It would be completely uneconomical to ship that particular rice and beans to starving people compared to throwing it out and using the money you would spend on shipping to buy them food locally.
3. If we are talking about wasting money that could be deployed differently (which this isn't, because it is the cheapest way for me to have X amount of calories available for an emergency), people waste 1000 times more money on things like $100/month phone plan, $200/month cable bill, a bunch of useless apps, going out to a crappy movie you didn't even like, jewelry, more clothes than needed, a more-expensive car than needed, a more-expensive house than needed, more TV's than needed, cigarettes, alcohol, candy, mountains of food that is eaten but bad for your health, etc.
4. Even if people didn't waste the money they personally have, they very often contribute to putting in place bad economic systems that waste national money in astonishingly gargantuan quantities that dwarf any considerations of rice and beans by such an extent that it is like arguing about a blade of grass in a forest that is in the process of being burned down.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Mister Fork on April 18, 2017, 01:41:32 PM
The big 3 questions you may want to ask is this:
- If you do indeed have enough supplies to last 1-2 months in a bunker with a group of survivalists, if you actually need a shelter to survive in, is 1-2 months enough? - If there is so much devastation (i.e. nuclear war), you may need 'years' of supplies to live until the top side is survivable, let alone livable. What exactly are you living to survive to? - Finally, this new world world you now live in, can you adjust who you are to survive and thrive?
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Brooke on April 18, 2017, 01:47:07 PM
By the way, for folks who are thinking about medicine, one that is very useful is antibiotics.
You generally can't go to your doctor and ask for a bunch of different types of antibiotics so that you can stock up.
But you can buy fish antibiotics, which are the same as human antibiotics, in the same dose sizes. "Fishmox", "Fishcycline", etc. are amoxicillin, tetracycline, etc.
Oh, and a medical manual to know what to give for what in which doses is of course a good thing.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Bizman on April 18, 2017, 02:19:48 PM
Brooke, it seems that there's apples and oranges we're talking about. I may have used a little too hard expressions at some point, blame the lack of understanding the nuances of the English language... My idea about replenishing what you eat is based on the fact that you'd have to go and buy food anyway. So why not circulate what you have and keep your stock fresh? That would also maintain a constant demand in the shops instead of one single spike for certain items.
The same with batteries and other things that have a set expiration date. Even the spare radio should be used every now and then to check it still works. Just today I read an article about poor electronics that won't last longer than the warranty time even if unused.
As for wasting money, that's what it has been made for. As long as you can make the ends meet, you're free to spend. Saving some for a rainy day is sane, saving for a rainy decade maybe not so. Reasonableness is the key word I'm thinking of, in this matter as well with everything else.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: 10thmd on April 18, 2017, 02:27:28 PM
We need a big war to melt snowflake's by the millions :devil
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Brooke on April 18, 2017, 04:39:46 PM
My idea about replenishing what you eat is based on the fact that you'd have to go and buy food anyway. So why not circulate what you have and keep your stock fresh? That would also maintain a constant demand in the shops instead of one single spike for certain items.
Think of it this way. Case A: I buy N buckets worth of rice and beans and leave them untouched until I die. Separately, I buy rice and beans to eat as I see fit and consume them when I get them. When I die, those N buckets are thrown out or taken by someone else. Case B: I buy N buckets worth of rice and beans, eat from them as I see fit, adding more rice and beans to keep the buckets full. When I die, those N buckets are thrown out or taken by someone else.
There is no difference.
No difference in how much rice and beans do or don't get thrown out.
No difference in rate of supply from stores.
No difference in freshness, as rice and beans stored this way don't become unfresh.
If you want some rations around for an emergency, this is your cheapest, easiest way to go. It is far cheaper, easier, and less wasteful in actual practice than maintaining an overstock of something held in a more-perishable form and managing a rotating consumption of it (which I tried in the past with canned goods when I lived in California, in case an earthquake ruined my ability to go to the supermarket for a while).
So, while I am too lazy to manage a rotating consumption of an overstocked item, I am not too lazy to make some cheap buckets of rice and beans and be done with it for the rest of my life.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Easyscor on April 18, 2017, 05:17:09 PM
I'm more optimistic most of you, and even more then the 'experts' cited in this current bbc article today on exactly this topic, 'Collapse of the West'.
If collapse comes, according to these guys, it won't mater that you have a priest hole, over decades, you'll gradually sink to the same desperate level unless you move to China. Me, I wouldn't want to become a Commy? LOL
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Bizman on April 19, 2017, 01:32:12 AM
Brooke, I fully understand that logic and for a single individual there really is no measurable difference.
But think about it in a nationwide scale: What if for some reason such preparations became mainstream all of a sudden? People buying rice and beans for a month's need for 300 million Americans apart from their normal consumption? Plus the bags and buckets and other supplies. A panic reaction could trigger such behaviour and that would certainly make shops run out of stuff. In current conditions it's no big issue for the grocer, simply multiply the order and get more rice and beans tomorrow morning. There's plenty of that stuff in the wholesale stock for some time to come. Good times for the grocer! Should this happen when the stocks are at the lowest, the wholesale stock might also run out of those. But still no reason to panic, the farmers will answer to the the increased demand by growing more rice and beans. At the end when everyone has done their preparation there'd be a huge surplus of rice and beans because no one could foresee how long the increased demand would continue.
One might think that such mass hysteria would not take place in our civilization. However, when dealing with the worst fears everything is possible.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Zimme83 on April 19, 2017, 01:59:28 AM
All you need is 250kg of potatoes and a moose...
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: zack1234 on April 19, 2017, 06:40:29 AM
What is the alternative to a moose in the UK :old:
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Joker on April 19, 2017, 08:04:34 AM
You have a point Biz, if this is carried to the extreme, but frankly these same concerns about survival preparations have been around for 50 years since the days of the cold war, and as far as I know there has not been excessive demand for rice, beans, or any other commodity as a result. At least not enough to affect the market in any way. The Americans who are concerned enough to take steps to provide for themselves in an emergency are a small subset of the whole. Most will blithely expect some form of governmental rescue.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Chris79 on April 19, 2017, 08:11:41 AM
If some catastrophe were to occur, I will subsist on the over abundance of long pig until such time as their excess population were to become diminished.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: ACE on April 19, 2017, 08:53:15 AM
I guess you can never be to safe. However, I don't believe we will have WW3 anytime soon.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Bruv119 on April 19, 2017, 08:54:30 AM
What is the alternative to a moose in the UK :old:
red deer stag?
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Shuffler on April 19, 2017, 09:19:59 AM
You can be prepared for catastrophe or most likely die. Forget handouts.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Flench on April 19, 2017, 09:56:10 AM
Thanks for the replys Men ... I know back in 1994 we got hit with a ice storm and knock the power out for 2 weeks here . It was like I was liviing 100 years ago . The stores could not pump gas even if you could get to one . After this happen I made it a point to have anouth stuff to last me a month at lest . Would like to build a bunker one day . You never no what's going to haappen and it well one day .. Again thanks for the replys <S>
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Oldman731 on April 19, 2017, 12:05:36 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybSzoLCCX-Y
- oldman
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Mister Fork on April 19, 2017, 04:40:09 PM
Brooke, I fully understand that logic and for a single individual there really is no measurable difference.
But think about it in a nationwide scale: What if for some reason such preparations became mainstream all of a sudden?
That hasn't happened and isn't going to happen, but going down that line of reasoning leads, then, to what if there were a nationwide emergency during which people did need those buckets of rice and beans but didn't have them? Well, then you'd have $trillions in economic damages that could have been avoided as a tradeoff of having avoided a buying spree on cheap rice and beans.
It is bad reasoning to pick one unlikely thing to make a case while ignoring the other unlikely thing that leads to the opposite conclusion.
Let's remember what we're talking about here. Is it wise to have some emergency food or not? If yes, then one of the cheapest, best, easiest, least-wasteful, most-economical ways to do it is with a bucket of rice and beans.
All this other arguing is just as applicable to anything a person does or buys. What if everyone in the world did or bought that thing? There would be disruption, chaos, riots in the streets, people murdering each other to get X. This is not a useful line of reasoning.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: pipz on April 19, 2017, 07:18:25 PM
Amateurs!
I have fity canz of Chef Boi R D on hand. Nuff said! :old:
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: zack1234 on April 20, 2017, 12:28:11 AM
Is that meat in a tin? :)
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Bizman on April 20, 2017, 02:28:26 AM
Let's remember what we're talking about here. Is it wise to have some emergency food or not?
I vote for yes.
During this post I've learned that an emergency doesn't have to be a nationwide apocalypse to break the normal supply services for weeks, at least not in the US. Guess we live in a much more safe and stable place here, no hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, thunder storms, tsunamis, volcanic activity... There's no need for us to pack food into extra durable packages, a tight jar would be enough to keep dry ingredients dry and pest free. Take this as an apology, I clearly wasn't thinking about the conditions over there.
Every now and then there's a short piece of news in the morning paper telling that there's a power outage in the dense populated areas, fixed in two weeks at the max. Should such happen to me in the summertime, the biggest issue would be eating the contents of the fridge before they melt. I suppose that's the situation with most of the neigbourhood here.
When the Ministry of the Interior published their National Risk Assessment in 2015 (http://julkaisut.valtioneuvosto.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/64973/National%20Risk%20Assessment%202015.pdf), I recall the experts saying that the crucial backup services for the society would be up and running in a couple of days. The main issue for us would be water, but even that would be no big problem, there's a river within less than a mile and the water is drinkable at least when cooked.
As for a useful line of reasoning, didn't the US Army include zombie attacks in their risk assessment? Some of the American preppers I've heard/read about sound like they're preparing for something like the Siege of Leningrad or worse, a scenario that seems very unlikely in the USA.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Ripsnort on April 20, 2017, 09:46:51 AM
Thanks for the replys Men ... I know back in 1994 we got hit with a ice storm and knock the power out for 2 weeks here . It was like I was liviing 100 years ago . The stores could not pump gas even if you could get to one . After this happen I made it a point to have anouth stuff to last me a month at lest . Would like to build a bunker one day . You never no what's going to haappen and it well one day .. Again thanks for the replys <S>
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Brooke on April 20, 2017, 02:01:59 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Joker on April 20, 2017, 07:13:25 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Gman on April 21, 2017, 02:59:09 AM
Flench, I was doing some shooting training in Texas in the DFW area, back when that ice storm hit in 1994, it was very late winter here in Canada, 2nd week of Feb if I recall, and it was my first trip to Texas that I was old enough to remember. The first week was perfect weather for outdoor shooting, when that ice storm hit...I still have a picture of my rental van, we had to break into it..as in break ice, and then we could roll down the windows and literally knock out the ice covering them still once we got in one door. I'd just come from driving on snow/ice so it didn't seem all that bad on the road at first, but that was a mistake, and it was soon like being on 4 hockey pucks instead of tires. The people in the area were very, very kind, our hotel helped us out, as did the airlines - local restaurants were great too.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: pipz on April 21, 2017, 05:19:38 AM
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: hotcoffe on April 21, 2017, 05:30:00 AM
I think it is already started (WWIII) and you can follow it from here, I use this map to see how the war is going rather then to listen to the lies of main stream media...
http://syria.liveuamap.com/
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Lusche on April 21, 2017, 05:51:56 AM
Flench, I was doing some shooting training in Texas in the DFW area, back when that ice storm hit in 1994, it was very late winter here in Canada, 2nd week of Feb if I recall, and it was my first trip to Texas that I was old enough to remember. The first week was perfect weather for outdoor shooting, when that ice storm hit...I still have a picture of my rental van, we had to break into it..as in break ice, and then we could roll down the windows and literally knock out the ice covering them still once we got in one door. I'd just come from driving on snow/ice so it didn't seem all that bad on the road at first, but that was a mistake, and it was soon like being on 4 hockey pucks instead of tires. The people in the area were very, very kind, our hotel helped us out, as did the airlines - local restaurants were great too.
It was really bad ..Right .....Give me a taste of what it would really be like and I don't like it ..Starting to get on the older side where I can not get out there and hit it like I use too ..
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: ghi on April 26, 2017, 09:39:28 PM
This guy alone can beat the norks; :)
"The Most Armed Man in America , Weapons Tour" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkVn1lzcK70
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Zimme83 on April 27, 2017, 12:45:29 PM
And how do you know this site isn't 'lying' either? :)
Its a very good site, and they often write if a report is unconfirmed. one of the best.
But Syria is not WWIII, a regional conflict but still not worse then conflicts like Vietnam or Congo. We hear more about it so it feels like its a lot worse but even if its bad its (unfortunately) far from the worst the world have seen.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Arlo on April 27, 2017, 01:28:50 PM
I tried to use this thread to get the wife to put the 5 gallon size (survivalist) sourkraut on the grocery list.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Skuzzy on April 27, 2017, 02:29:23 PM
Can't say as I blame her! Did you read the label? "Keep under refrigeration".
I mean, if I told my Wife she was going to have to move the refrigerator off the top of it every time we want sauerkraut, I am pretty sure she would balk at buying it as well!
Besides, I am pretty sure that bucket is not strong enough to support a fully loaded refrigerator.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: morfiend on April 27, 2017, 02:39:40 PM
^^^^ :rofl :rofl :rofl
:salute
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Brooke on April 27, 2017, 04:05:24 PM
Can't say as I blame her! Did you read the label? "Keep under refrigeration".
I mean, if I told my Wife she was going to have to move the refrigerator off the top of it every time we want sauerkraut, I am pretty sure she would balk at buying it as well!
Besides, I am pretty sure that bucket is not strong enough to support a fully loaded refrigerator.
:rofl :aok
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: FBKampfer on April 27, 2017, 04:21:53 PM
Frankly, if WWIII and nuclear holocaust happens a lot of us will be in the service by the time it goes nuclear. Many of us will meet that day on foreign and unfriendly ground, far from home with little hope of getting back, should it ever come to pass.
Granted I'm 22 and single without children, but I'll be counting more on my rifle and the guys in my unit than a bunker I probably won't be able to use.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Arlo on April 28, 2017, 10:27:41 AM
Can't say as I blame her! Did you read the label? "Keep under refrigeration".
I mean, if I told my Wife she was going to have to move the refrigerator off the top of it every time we want sauerkraut, I am pretty sure she would balk at buying it as well!
Besides, I am pretty sure that bucket is not strong enough to support a fully loaded refrigerator.
:rofl :aok
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Rich46yo on May 04, 2017, 07:24:10 PM
I was in USAF during the height of The Cold War. If you think this is bad you should have seen then. Both us and the Soviet with over 10,000 strategic thermo nuclear weapons apiece each pointed at each other, with most of them on trip wire alert. Base after base with Buff's on hot pads, roped off under extreme security, the pilots in nearby standby houses able to be in the air in 15 mins.
We had three separate ICBM classes on alert at one time. One, a Titan 2 at a base I was stationed at, blew up in its silo and we came within a 25 cent electric circuit of a 9 megaton warhead annihilating Arkansas. And I'm not even including medium range/theater nukes. THEN, at the height of it, we stared down the Reds and put GLCMs and Pershing-lls in Europe. Ballistic missile submarines prowled the oceans, just one of our could take out every major population center of any country in the world. And we had 18 of them.
This Russian poking and stumbling around with their Bear bombers and whatever else was almost daily. We considered it nothing but practice, and remember, the fighters we sent out to check them out were also armed with Genie nuclear ATA missiles. I spent 18 mos in the Middle East and terrorists were murdering us back then also. A friend of mine was thrown off a 4'th floor balcony by fundamentalists just for marrying a girl of a different religion. I did TDYs in secret bases where the NSA monitored Soviet missile fields across the Black Sea. Unlike today we were always a split second from Armageddon and we weren't doing much talking about it.
So today it still goes on but we pulled back our nuclear postures and we have far less weapons on alert tho reduction talks are threatened by distrust and our need to have at least some ABM capability to protect us from rouge nations. But dont forget a certain amount of ABMs was agreed to under the SALT talks, I think about 64, and the Russians have always had them active in a ring around Moscow. They still do and are even going to replace them with newer ones.
Yes Korea is a worry some thing and unfortunately were going to have to eventually draw the line. With avoiding Politics History has shown us when one person holds all the power and he has destructive weapons its a bad thing, tho its far worse in Asia then here. I have a son at that same MidEast base I was at, still basically fighting the war I fought. Its worse now but we fought terror then too, and you can add all kinds of Marxist student groups, the Red brigades, and all kinds of Soviet funded Loony birds back then as well.
We are at risk of a major regional conflict now but I still say it was a far scarier world in 1978. History has shown us the only chance we have of avoiding war is thru strength and resolve and each and every time we have forgotten that we have ended up in a conflict. I just dont see WW3 right now but we are going to have to pay a price to prevent it. Our allies will have to pay too.
Frankly, if WWIII and nuclear holocaust happens a lot of us will be in the service by the time it goes nuclear. Many of us will meet that day on foreign and unfriendly ground, far from home with little hope of getting back, should it ever come to pass.
Granted I'm 22 and single without children, but I'll be counting more on my rifle and the guys in my unit than a bunker I probably won't be able to use.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Oldman731 on May 04, 2017, 09:33:13 PM
We are at risk of a major regional conflict now but I still say it was a far scarier world in 1978.
Eh. 1962 was no picnic, first time I was ever really frightened by the notion of World Death. When you think about it, we had two, maybe three full decades of that. But we all knew that adults were in charge. There were no crazies back then. That's no longer the case. Now: North Korea? Pakistan? Iran?
I have never known one military person who thought that a nuclear war could be contained, once begun. Henry Kissinger be damned.
- oldman
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Brooke on May 05, 2017, 12:25:02 PM
During the Cuban Missile Crisis, a Soviet sub (B-59) very nearly launched a nuclear torpedo against our task group down there.
It came down to three officers, two agreeing (one being the captain who ordered the launch) and one (the political officer) refusing.
It is a fascinating story, told in Red November, by Reed (a great book), and also some details here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_B-59
Here is part of a documentary on the subject: https://youtu.be/4VPY2SgyG5w?t=2590
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: zack1234 on May 05, 2017, 03:24:32 PM
Has it started yet?
Guess not then
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Rich46yo on May 05, 2017, 03:39:58 PM
I'm not old enough to remember Cuba, tho I do remember JFK getting killed. The scary thing about Cuba in retrospect is that junior commanders had so much leniency in the nuclear chain of command. And it wasn't just the Russians. It was like procedures and command structures hadnt caught up with the technology yet, as if nobody knew what the heck to do.
But the one single thing that stopped catastrophe in that crisis, I believe, is we had them out gunned by far. I mean a lot. I forget the exact number but we had a huge lead in deliverable war heads. Luckily we got out of that one and both countries installed some safety procedures and better communication. I'm kind of glad I dont remember it, reading about is is scary enough.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Arlo on May 05, 2017, 03:55:20 PM
But the one single thing that stopped catastrophe in that crisis, I believe, is we had them out gunned by far. I mean a lot. I forget the exact number but we had a huge lead in deliverable war heads.
I think it's a rather moot point if the other side has enough weapons to destroy the world twice over and we have ten times that.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Brooke on May 05, 2017, 04:02:55 PM
There were several reasons for so many during the cold war. One of the main ones was to have enough left after absorbing a first strike to still have a very high probability of annihilating the Soviet Union.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Arlo on May 05, 2017, 08:43:12 PM
There were several reasons for so many during the cold war. One of the main ones was to have enough left after absorbing a first strike to still have a very high probability of annihilating the Soviet Union.
That would indeed be a reason. Defense industry spending (and profit) would be another. Puts a whole new spin on 'overkill.'
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Rich46yo on May 05, 2017, 08:48:25 PM
I think it's a rather moot point if the other side has enough weapons to destroy the world twice over and we have ten times that.
They didnt look at it that way in 1962 when there were far fewer deliverable warheads.
The way the Soviets looked at it we had 203 ICBMs that could hit them while they only had 36 that could hit us. We had 1,300 bombers capable of reaching them and they had 138 capable of reaching us. We had 8 SSBNs each with 16 Polaris missiles and a range of 1,500 nm. They had about the same number of Loud Hotel class each with 3 launchers with missiles that had a much shorter range. We even had them on IRBMs with 50 Jupiters deployed in Europe compared to what they had up and running in Cuba.
At the time nuclear war was considered inevitable but if your a Red looking to start a fight those numbers didnt add up very well. The imbalance was what lead Khrushchev to try and sneak those IRBMs into Cuba in the first place. If your looking for a good book on all this get "Command and Control" by Eric Schlosser. In it he covers the Broken Arrow at Little Rock AFB in 1980 I mentioned earlier but he goes far more into detail over the entire arms race and all the accidents and incidents that almost led to war.
At the time I was assigned to SAC so I didnt go out to the sight of the Titan-ll mishap. We knew something was happening out there but USAF put a lid on it and told everyone there was no chance the weapon could have gone off, which was BS.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Flench on May 05, 2017, 09:35:51 PM
I remember back in like 1965 father's was a brick and stone masson and worked on new homes and so on and he was building quite a few bunkers in the back yards back then . Growing up I had a friend that his father had one in the back yard and it was party city to us , lol ..
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Oldman731 on May 05, 2017, 09:51:50 PM
There were several reasons for so many during the cold war. One of the main ones was to have enough left after absorbing a first strike to still have a very high probability of annihilating the Soviet Union.
They took those analyses to ridiculous levels - nuke the other guy's airfields, send in your bombers, hope no one uses ICBMs. If they do, nuke the silos but not the cities, see if the other guy quits. Use half your force, use all of your force, keep some back for when it's all over so you can rule the smoking world...it works in chess, but in the real world, when your kids have just been incinerated, I doubt anyone would have that sort of restraint.
- oldman
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: ghi on May 05, 2017, 10:59:01 PM
That would indeed be a reason. Defense industry spending (and profit) would be another. Puts a whole new spin on 'overkill.'
Good stuff ! I watched it before , makes sense, but i believe is something more hideous luring them with material things. Since November last year it's scary watching American people punishing the youngsters( snowflakes) for not supporting their choice; from what i read the mass rejection of certain candidate by younger generation was unprecedented . Consciousness is not born with us, won't die with us, but rather moves on, not a product of the brain. Mature humans are acting according to life experience, (illusion of understanding nature and life) rational thinking in taking decisions ignoring the low frequency whispers of destiny ; In animals and younger creature the timeless consciousnesses tends preserve and warn the body host, is more attached to material body goes back and forward in time and warns the soul via instincts and premonitions; instinct and intuition is more powerful than rational thinking not to be ignored;, only time will tell.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: ghi on May 05, 2017, 11:27:02 PM
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: icepac on May 06, 2017, 09:06:31 AM
A big event that causes people to abandon thier posts at nuclear power plants or causes damage to the capacity for cooling the reactors is what would make the world unable to sustain life.
All the world needs is 10 reactors on the east coast to go "smoking hole" and life would likely be impossible anywhere in the world you may hide.
Let's say 10 reactors are successfully "SCRAM" because they lost the power grid to them.
The decay heat still requires millions of gallons per day of flow through the reactors and spent fuel poinds.
The pumps require enormous amounts of power to the point that it's likely that on site generators would have trouble keeping fueled or being maintained to run constantly.
Even nuke plants that have been shut down for years require millions of gallons of flow.
If you've studied Fukushima, you realize that, in spite of the 9.0 magnitude earthquake, they got extremely lucky in being able to restore power to the site relatively quickly making the possible damage about 1/10000th of what it could have been.
The only way for the world to survive a large destabilization event is for all the worlds nuke plants to have "convective cooling loops" capable of dealing with the decay heat from a recently scram reactor which should lessen and possibly eliminate the need for massive amounts of on site power available for pumping.
As time passes, the cooling needs lessen but still require humans on site to maintain the ability to cool (for years) before the reactors are dismantled and the fuel is stored in dry casks.
When the "tough" get going.....the going gets tougher............the "tough" being morons who decide that "there's no law......let's raid walmart for weapons".
These people will tip a recoverable event into full blown disaster that may prompt people to abandon very important posts at places such as nuclear powerplants.
Once a few go up, the possibility of snowballing increases exponentially as people question why they should remain at their posts at an undamaged plant as they are absorbing doses from a nearby plant that has gone up.
Right now, the world's biggest threat to sustaining life is that we don't have enough cooling capacity that doesn't rely on an intact power grid.
This can be rectified and the cost of billions of dollars.........but it is possible to achieve.
How much money is the ability to sustain life on earth worth?
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: ghi on May 06, 2017, 11:16:48 AM
I read the nuclear power plants are first infrastructure targets, with warheads set for ground detonation to maximize fallout. It's hard to find a safe place if full exchange would take place, the west is definitely safer but every state has lower risk zones for fallout shelter.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: icepac on May 06, 2017, 04:38:12 PM
I'm not sure many leaders understand that any attack that causes a few nuke plants to go up will eventually cause their own country to be incapable of sustaining human life even if there is no retaliation.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Oldman731 on May 07, 2017, 12:17:05 AM
I'm not sure many leaders understand that any attack that causes a few nuke plants to go up will eventually cause their own country to be incapable of sustaining human life even if there is no retaliation.
I am sure that MANY leaders understand the use of paranoia to keep the mob in its place :)
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Ramesis on May 07, 2017, 03:57:58 PM
:devil I'm not paranoid, just realistic :cheers:
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Flench on May 07, 2017, 07:04:43 PM
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Shuffler on May 08, 2017, 05:38:20 PM
I always remember the movie Fail Safe.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Arlo on May 08, 2017, 06:40:28 PM
And 'On The Beach.'
By the way, both 'Fail Safe' and 'On The Beach' were re-made in 2000. Here's hoping they'll both get to be re-made in 2040 (even though the originals will always be the best).
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Zoney on May 08, 2017, 06:47:32 PM
On the beach is absolutely fantastic. Understated, well acted, little to no special effects.
The original one.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 08, 2017, 07:14:19 PM
I remember "We'll Meet Again" from something else than Dr. Strangelove.
https://youtu.be/ClwW0n05av4?t=140
Also the only TV/film Bf 110 I've ever seen... Attacking a USAAF base and spends his ord on a shed then strafes a bicycle and a farm girl. No wonder they lost the war.
https://youtu.be/ClwW0n05av4?t=1758
But the Jerries weren't the only ones buzzing farm girls in this series.
https://youtu.be/ClwW0n05av4?t=367
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Zoney on May 08, 2017, 08:50:25 PM
I'm not sure many leaders understand that any attack that causes a few nuke plants to go up will eventually cause their own country to be incapable of sustaining human life even if there is no retaliation.
Of course they wouldn't know what an average guy like you knows.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Brooke on May 09, 2017, 04:01:38 AM
Stay away from "Little Red Riding Hood"! Dude, what happens to the Grandma is just criminal!
I like the short stories....
It gets to where Little Red Riding Hood is skipping through the forest. The Big Bad Wolf jumps out and says, "I'm going to eat you". Red Riding Hood says," OOoo you going to eat me whole?" The Big Bad Wolf says," no I'm going to spit that part out!"
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: bustr on May 10, 2017, 03:00:01 PM
Slip a large enough conventional device under the fuel coolant tower, then one or two next to the reactor to breach it. You will end up with wind dispersion of dirty material and a meltdown which will effect the local area for 10,000 years. That's pretty much the scenario most likely to happen if it was attempted. A MIRV would be more efficient to devastate a region or a single load warhead for half a state. Setting off a nuke at a nuclear power plant is over kill and a dumb waste of effort. The plant is not in a high value area and the single warhead itself has greater damage potential.
No one wants to nuke anything, a single nuke by a bad actor would start a chain of events that would not work out well for for the third world, middle east, NKorea and any small bad actor nation once the first world used the incident to clamp down on the rest of the world. You can already see the spheres of influence the first world nations would clamp down on by looking at the current globalization trade treaties. And unless the EU wakes up, no nukes will be needed to had Western Europe over to Islam. A nuke event would wake the world up and get in the way of the current great under reported migration event.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Shuffler on May 10, 2017, 03:01:05 PM
You can just wait for the ground to settle or shift like in Washington State.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Rich46yo on May 10, 2017, 08:13:08 PM
Correction. At the time I wasn't assigned to SAC, which meant Strategic Air Command, which controlled our ICBM force. I was instead assigned to MAC, which meant Military Airlift Command, and its why I didnt go out to the sight of the Broken Arrow. A "Broken Arrow" means
Quote
an accidental event that involves nuclear weapons, warheads or components which does not create the risk of nuclear war.
To the best of my recollection that was the last Broken Arrow we had and it involved the largest yield warhead we still had in service. A 9 MT thermo nuclear device 600 times more powerful then the Hiroshima bomb.
Quote
At the time I was assigned to SAC so I didnt go out to the sight of the Titan-ll mishap. We knew something was happening out there but USAF put a lid on it and told everyone there was no chance the weapon could have gone off, which was BS.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Bodhi on May 10, 2017, 09:29:30 PM
Bustr, Sadly, the western half of Europe is hellbent on imploding. I truly hope no Americans have to fight yet another war over there.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Zimme83 on May 11, 2017, 11:47:15 AM
Slip a large enough conventional device under the fuel coolant tower, then one or two next to the reactor to breach it. You will end up with wind dispersion of dirty material and a meltdown which will effect the local area for 10,000 years.
It's already happening ,not local the entire earth is affected by radiations; natural safety levels are not safe at all; we have the instinct of eternity in our DNA , planning for future until the last moment of our life maybe not designed to die, still something is slowing down our cells regeneration, killing our material body sooner than our consciousness gives up. Maybe this entire planet was nuked before or served as hazardous waste landfill for galactic federation; I wached the "radon gas" story growing over past 5-10 years from daily news to home improvement shows; nobody knew about this things 30-40 years ago, i read this actually could be the #1 cancer cause ; it's official in WHO files the 2nd cause of lung cancer after smoking, our baboons cousins knew it moved up in trees, we should watch and learn . The building code has been updated in many US states and here in Canada after measurements were taken and high risk maps edited. It's a radioactive dumpster planet, reptilians Illuminati everywhere, strong gravity crashing my bones after gaining a cute beer belly ; i'm not reincarnating here anymore, screw it , i'll write very bad reviews . (http://altered-states.net/barry/newsletter405/Radon7.jpg)
Maybe this entire planet was nuked before or served as hazardous waste landfill for galactic federation;
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: zack1234 on May 11, 2017, 11:52:11 PM
Nuclear energy is a myth!
I have never seen or been to one of this so called reactors so until then they are like the Moon landings a elaborate rues.
Pipz has a abode in New Jersey which he frequents on a monthly basis to service his colonial customers, he lives in Ontario in the Wilderness which has a large customer base for his specialised expertise. ( As long as it does not scare the horses i dont think it is a crime).
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: FBKampfer on May 14, 2017, 01:56:29 PM
A big reason cancer is on the up is that before modern medicine, we usually got taken out by something else first. Cancer is nothing new. Homo Erectus, Australopithecus, mamal-like reptiles, and Dinosaurs likely got cancer.
What would be cancer likely killed some of the very first Prokaryotes to float around in the primordial muck.
We may be turning the place into a garbage heap, but it's quite unlikely that radiation is a major concern for future generations unless we decide on nuclear self immolation as our preferred method of suicide.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: pipz on May 14, 2017, 02:11:42 PM
Be warned. The honorable Chris Christie, governor of New Jersey has informed me personally that he is prepared to assemble the state militia. :old:
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: icepac on May 14, 2017, 02:32:36 PM
I just watched that recently. Thought it was pretty good.
As I said even tho I was stationed at LRAFB at the time I wasn't assigned to SAC, in fact I was assigned to MAC which protected the flight line and did LE duties on the base. I specifically remember Mondale flying in on AF1 and being assigned to some path in the middle of nowhere. I never even saw the VP and never saw a Titan complex my entire time there.
We knew something was happening at a missile sight and we found out when it blew and a guy died. SAC put a lid on the entire thing and SAC was able to do that back then. I remember being told there was no chance the warhead could have gone off, which was BS but I was like 21yo at the time. Had it blown we probably would have died because we were only about 40 miles from it. They have a Titan ll preset here http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/ (http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/) just type in "Damascus AR." into the search engine.
And thats my memory of it. We just didnt mix with the SAC people. Shortly after I went TDY for a year convoying the old Tactical weapons from Europe around the South West because they were going to be replaced by Pershing-ll's and GLCMs. When you around that stuff so much you just dont think twice about it.
I dont blame those guys for being bitter but around special weapons the "two man rule" is like something Moses came down from the mountain with. Not only with the weapon but also anything involved with delivering it. "One" person couldnt even go into a KC-135 that was on alert and tasked with refueling SAC B-52s. It always has to be two authorized people of equal skill and knowledge and they can never be outside of each others line of sight. Had he just taken that other missile guy down with him he never would have gotten jammed up. Had the other guy just went outside the complex and got the authorized tool not only would the accident probably never had happened but he wouldn't have lost a stripe over it as well. In the end thats what almost caused a 9 MT explosion. A tired young airman who didnt want to take an extra 20 mins to go get the authorized tool.
I guess they call SAC Global Strike Command now. Anyway thats what my kid tells me. Its a different era now.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: mbailey on May 18, 2017, 02:32:20 PM
Hey Rich, Is that available streaming or do I have to get the DVD?
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Ripsnort on May 18, 2017, 03:42:21 PM
Really? My money is on New Jersey. You ever pissed off anyone in New Jersey? Yeah, go for it North Korea.
Yes. I lived there for two years in 7th and 8th grade. They hated my Midwest accent so I was a target for fight almost daily in school. (This was pre-bullying-everyone gets a trophy days)
But I sure learned how to street fight good!! And learned how to defend myself too. :bolt:
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: ghi on May 20, 2017, 04:49:31 PM
It's already happening ,not local the entire earth is affected by radiations; natural safety levels are not safe at all; we have the instinct of eternity in our DNA , planning for future until the last moment of our life maybe not designed to die, still something is slowing down our cells regeneration, killing our material body sooner than our consciousness gives up. Maybe this entire planet was nuked before or served as hazardous waste landfill for galactic federation; I wached the "radon gas" story growing over past 5-10 years from daily news to home improvement shows; nobody knew about this things 30-40 years ago, i read this actually could be the #1 cancer cause ; it's official in WHO files the 2nd cause of lung cancer after smoking, our baboons cousins knew it moved up in trees, we should watch and learn . The building code has been updated in many US states and here in Canada after measurements were taken and high risk maps edited. It's a radioactive dumpster planet, reptilians Illuminati everywhere, strong gravity crashing my bones after gaining a cute beer belly ; i'm not reincarnating here anymore, screw it , i'll write very bad reviews . (http://altered-states.net/barry/newsletter405/Radon7.jpg)
Hey Rich, Is that available streaming or do I have to get the DVD?
Sorry I lost the thread for awhile. Its available for streaming. Its not as all encompassing as the book but thats to be expected. It covers the Arkansas accident very well. The book is very informative on nuclear weapons as a whole.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: ghi on May 21, 2017, 07:00:13 PM
Yemeni forces claim shooting down Saudi F-15 . I'm watching this video on phone, not sure what I see; :headscratch:
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: Zimme83 on May 21, 2017, 07:29:30 PM
Seems like an igla or similar manpads. A brief search did not find much concrete but it seems like a F-15 was hit but manage to return to base. Nothing confirmed though.
Title: Re: WW lll
Post by: ghi on May 22, 2017, 06:59:10 AM
What's with the bizare glowing orb ceremony in Saudi Arabia? :uhoh Maybe the legendary ancient sceptre of king Cyrus loaded with dark energy ,was burried with him ,gave him endless powers .
$1500 cash , $500 gold coins in a safe. (Most currency or gold will be worthless, ammunition and cigarettes will be the "new" currency in a SHTF scenario) 10,000 rds of ammunition for 8 caliber types. Unlimited water source (river 1/4 mile away) and two rain barreled gutters. Water treatment for 10,000 gallons of water. 2 months of food supplies, various dried and MRE for a family of 4. 50 lbs of salt, 50 lbs of sugar (for curing wild game) 1 month of generator fuel. 1 month of propane fuel. 3 cords of wood. Ample deer and elk in the backyard.
In a pinch, we could stretch it to 4 months at 2000 calories a day.
Ever since 9/11/2001, I've used the anniversary to rotate stock and add more stuff.
And I don't think NK will start WW3. My biggest concern is Mt. Rainier, 25 miles away or a debilitating earthquake that stops the flow of food to the area for a few weeks.
Yes yes looks like you have about everything cover.