General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: oboe on June 13, 2017, 06:05:53 PM
Title: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: oboe on June 13, 2017, 06:05:53 PM
Could you guys take a look at this video and comment on the specular and power values I've used - for the P-51 wing, please pay particular attention to the silver-painted wingtop versus the bare metal aileron and flap surfaces. I think its easie to show what I'm asking about in a video, where you can see the sun play across the surface, rather than a static screen shot.
I've increased both power and specular values (that is, shifted both more towards white in the grayscale bmps), as I understood Skuzzy to suggest about my last screen shots, of P-51B Snoot's Sniper. One disadvantage to the higher values I'm using now - the very high power, very high spec panel line edges seem to be washed out by the surrounding skin's own glare.
The video is HD 1080p but in some spots the quality is much less - I think that is because it was so recently uploaded to YouTube, and the final, full quality will be availble in a matter of hours - at least that is what the help page lead me to believe.
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: Devil 505 on June 13, 2017, 06:34:36 PM
You might be better flying the plane at an angle that the sunlight is reflected along the entire fuselage and then alter the roll and pitch to get a better sense of how the skin handles the reflections.
BTW: I love the skin. :rock
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: oboe on June 13, 2017, 07:12:51 PM
Thank you, sir.
This is the last of the 3 P-51Bs I had mentioned in my post about skins under construction. It is the least decorated of the trio and I thought would make the best subject for fine-tuning the specular and power map values. I haven't found any environmental values that look much good for unpolished metal - it may look OK in sunlight but then on the shadowed side the skin looks like glass.
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: Devil 505 on June 13, 2017, 07:44:29 PM
This is the last of the 3 P-51Bs I had mentioned in my post about skins under construction. It is the least decorated of the trio and I thought would make the best subject for fine-tuning the specular and power map values. I haven't found any environmental values that look much good for unpolished metal - it may look OK in sunlight but then on the shadowed side the skin looks like glass.
Yes, the E map has a very fine line between no and lots of effect in shaded areas.
As for the P map, I still think you will have better results with black on bare metal areas over what you have now, but it's very hard to tell in that video.
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: oboe on June 14, 2017, 01:49:06 PM
I don't seem to be able to reduce the whiteout much. I keep darkening both the spec and power maps bit by bit. This screen shot is with almost black power and spec maps: each map is set to roughly a value of 18, where 0 is pure black and 255 is pure white:
(http://i.imgur.com/53cmcbJ.jpg)
It looks a little better if I disable post lighting, but not enough to make a difference. Besides I want these skins to look good with POST lighting enabled.
EDIT: Just created pure black spec and power maps and tried them out under same sun angle (taking off W from A116 on CraterMA at 10 am). Full-power auto climbout.
These are pure black maps. So, zero specularity and power -- the least amount of reflected light, set to the widest possible dispersion a skinner can effect on a skin. I'm thinking the sun is even more powerful in AH than I'd realized.
(http://i.imgur.com/sq7VFB8.jpg)
I'm adding the maps I used just in case I've set them up incorrectly, or have them misnamed or something and they aren't really working the way I thougth they were supposed to.
EDIT x2: I also deleted both spec and power maps and let the skin use the default maps. It produces the same whiteout under these conditions. I suppose I could try darkening the diffuse map by 50 or 100%?
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: hitech on June 14, 2017, 04:43:31 PM
Try black spec and white power.
HiTech
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: Devil 505 on June 14, 2017, 05:03:30 PM
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: oboe on June 14, 2017, 05:17:18 PM
Here's a shot with pure black Spec map and pure white power map:
(http://i.imgur.com/7jcjO79.jpg)
I also tried the default P-51B skin in the same setting, and apart from whiteout of the white DDay stripes, it looks fairly normal. I think it could be a problem related to the lighter base colors like white, gray, silver, etc. I don't seem to be able to exert as much control over the specularity and power when the base color is a light shade.
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: hitech on June 15, 2017, 10:33:39 AM
Please post all bmps. You have something in them that you are overlooking.
HiTech
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: oboe on June 15, 2017, 10:44:44 AM
Here are all the latest spec maps in my folder for this skin. The Normal map is just flat; my panels lines and details don't match the default ones so its simpler to keep it flat while I work on other aspects of the skin.
Thanks for your help; I hope it is something I've overlooked.
EDIT: I see this washout effect on other skins also. Here are screenshots of one of Vraciu's bare metal '51B's and the default P-47D-40 which is a bare metal bird by Greebo:
(http://i.imgur.com/wDgo41Z.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/EVLEDwt.jpg)
I use ingame default graphic settings with a gamma of 1.0. I did just update my Radeon graphic drivers to 17.6 and have experimented with overriding the AA and Anisotropic filtering to higher quality values, but I have noticed the bright washout of whites before.
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: hitech on June 15, 2017, 01:03:22 PM
Please post the diffuse also.
Also in some situations the wash out is very intended. I put your E N P & S file on the original diffuse, and do not have specular of any sort.
HiTech
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: oboe on June 15, 2017, 02:34:20 PM
I zipped all the p51b bmps I've customized, including the pilot files, and sent you a PM with a link to the zip files. I included the spec and power maps I used in the video clip at the top.
I'll try what you did with the default p51b skin using the bmps I posted earlier...
EDIT:
Here's a detail of a screenshot of a new custom skin I created; the folder contains only default P-51B diffuse map, and the spec, power, normal and environmental bmps I posted above. It's a pure black specular map and pure white power map:
(http://i.imgur.com/oyE2rZx.jpg)
Comparing to the actual default map, you can see the sun has washed out much of the detail from the white invasion stripes, but not the black ones. The white stripes should still have panel lines, rivets, dirt streaks, etc in them. The details inside the black stripes are still showing.
(http://i.imgur.com/OMjjBU5.jpg)
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: hitech on June 15, 2017, 02:54:49 PM
Appears to be a bug that works like an on off switch in certain views over water the lighting will change. Go back in cockpit view up all looks normal then click, it changes to like your screen shot.
Look at it staticly on land and it does not do that.
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: oboe on June 15, 2017, 03:00:33 PM
Interesting, it appears to only affect the light colors like white, silver, gray? And only when over water?
I thought it might be the angle of the sun at the time of day and climb angle, so I was sure to specify what terrain I was using, the runway depart direction, time of day, and that I was in full power autoclimb.
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: oboe on June 15, 2017, 03:08:47 PM
I get the washout of detail in the white stripes just sitting on the runway as well. If I go to the cockpit and look out the side at the wing top, I can see the washout develop fully over a period of about 1 second. You can watch the panel lines on the white stripes just disappear into the bright white of the stripe (and the stripe should be a dirty, dull white)...
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: Devil 505 on June 15, 2017, 03:10:22 PM
Appears to be a bug that works like an on off switch in certain views over water the lighting will change. Go back in cockpit view up all looks normal then click, it changes to like your screen shot.
Look at it staticly on land and it does not do that.
Hitech, this is the same problem we've been trying to get through to you an Skizzy for months. It affects light colors over any terrain.
It worked, somewhat. what I did was use a faded black layer over pure white to gauge the difference in change. I used 15% black and 20% black. While 20% black made for better whites in direct sunlight, the color looks far too gray at all other times. I now use a 15% black layer over any white - but washout is still an issue.
The wing stripes are done for the experiment - all other white markings are with 15% black. Each wing has a pure white section as a control and a faded black section directly against it. Left wing is 15% black and the right has 20% black. (http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/ahss17_zps5qoz2byt.png~original) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/DropkickYankees/media/ahss17_zps5qoz2byt.png.html) At low light angles, the difference in tone is clear between the pure white and the sections with faded black.
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/ahss18_zpsy32mkv2s.png~original) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/DropkickYankees/media/ahss18_zpsy32mkv2s.png.html) at high angles, washout is still severe, but details are better retained in the black sections and the effect is progressively lessened the farther the tone shifts away from pure white.
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: hitech on June 15, 2017, 03:41:02 PM
The bug I am seeing goes away if post lighting is disabled.
HiTech
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: Devil 505 on June 15, 2017, 04:04:45 PM
What I see gets worse with post lighting disabled.
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: oboe on June 15, 2017, 04:08:33 PM
Well this is getting confusing. I just set up the standard setting using my original spec and power maps for this skin, and took screenshots of POST lighting ENALBLE vs DISABLED. My results concur with Hitech's observation.
Here's a composite image, showing the comparison:
(http://i.imgur.com/jI2LL1P.jpg)
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: Devil 505 on June 15, 2017, 04:26:26 PM
What happens to the skin when you have it setup with the E, P, and S maps like you want it to look?
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: oboe on June 15, 2017, 04:54:33 PM
The shot above has E, P, and S maps that are pretty close to final I think -- I used those in the video clip. Unless I hear something drastic from HTC or one of you guys, I more satisfied than not. I liked the way the sun reflection got wider and weaker on the silver-painted wingtop compared to the bare metal flaps and ailerons, where it was more intense. I did want more focused glare on the edges of the panels, and I'll try to work toward that.
But might as well wait until this bug is found and quashed before further tweaking.
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: Vraciu on June 20, 2017, 03:49:06 PM
That's my thinking. I'm putting my metal skins on the shelf for now until we know for sure what we are dealing with.
Now to tweak the others some more.
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: hitech on June 21, 2017, 08:50:50 AM
Is this a temporary fix or a permanent one? What does this accomplish exactly?
Turning off post lighting brings in other undesirable effects, IMO, particularly regarding anti-aliasing.
I will try it, of course, but...
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: oboe on June 22, 2017, 06:28:12 AM
I think you can still get anti-aliasing through your graphics card software.
For example, in the Radeon software (name escapes me atm) I can set up a profile for "aceshigh9.exe" and select "Override Application settings" and then set my own level of AA. I do this with Anisotropic Filtering, as well.
Title: Re: Specular and Power values for bare aluminum
Post by: hitech on June 23, 2017, 03:47:04 PM