Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Zimme83 on July 26, 2017, 05:49:24 PM
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A Project unknown to pretty much everyone. a He 111 is being restored in Sweden. It contains parts mainly from 2 He 111, one that made an emergency landing in Norway in 1940 and one that Landed in a Swedish lake (also in 1940). The Heinkel on the Swedish side of the border was recovered in 2006.
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-rest/L017r-16.jpg)
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-rest/1504.jpg)
(In Swedish)
http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/LW/LW017-rest1.html
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Very cool. Thanks for sharing.
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Your right had no idea.
Glad you posted. :aok
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Are they planning to restore this plane to flying condition? A lotta good work done so far. :aok
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I really doubt that it will fly again, that would require that you built a new airplane, you cannot build anything that flies if you start with this:
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-He111/L017-14.jpg)
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From the web page:
The main part (except the cockpit) is from the one salvaged in N Sweden in 2008. Designated 1H+DN, a 111 from KG26 that made an emergency landing on the 15nd of may 1940. The plane was one of six 111 on a mission to attack British shipping around Narvik. The flight is attacked by 3 Blackburn Skuas from 800 Sq that took of from Ark Royal. After the initial attack the 111 formation is scattered and 1H+DN is spotted alone by the Skuas. The 111 is severely damaged by the Skuas and is forced to make an emergency landing. The plane ends up on a lake on the Swedish side of the border. The Crew is unharmed and makes it back to the Norwegian side but is captured and spend the rest of the war as POW:s.
The Skuas designated "Red 1" and "Red 2" seems to be the ones that brought it down. Piloted by a Lt. E.G.D. Finch-Noyes and Midshipmen L. Gallagher with the gunners Petty Officer airman H. Cunningham and P/O R. Rolph.
Crew on the 111 was:
Pilot: Uffz. Siegfried Blume
Commander: Feldwebel Karl Grube
Radio operator: Uffz. Helmut Bennighof
Mechanic: ffz. Werner Wamser
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I've mentioned this before, Zimmer, but in my opinion what they're doing isn't really restoration. It's recreation from scratch using 99% new parts and just templates or plans/jigs/designs from the original plane. The pieces that were original are just token pieces.
I suppose it's more of a spiritual rebirth or a link to the past for those doing it, but in all objective consideration it's just creating new parts and assembling them into a newly built plane.
The problem would be the DB engines. None of those around for 109s, let alone for He111s. It would be a Buchon-esque version of a CASA 2.111 or something.
Engines = money. If they have enough money they can get it running and flying. Otherwise it might remain a static shell display until they could finish certain things on it. Although, typically these guys tend to have better (more consistent) funding to finish projects than some American organizations do.
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Every single pice you see is from the original planes. But they will need to make some new part or use parts from other 111:s since a lot of parts is missing from the wreckage.
As for the engines:
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-rest/bild11.jpg)
This is one of the engines from 1H+DN, they seems to have at least one more Jumo engine under restoration.
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Nice find Zimme.
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Every single pice you see is from the original planes.
Not to nitpick, and definitely not picking on you, but... No, not every piece you see is from the original. The majority cannot be hammered out our straightened out to a point where they retain their strength. The more you beat a piece of metal out of shape and back into shape, the less strength it has. They will tag certain pieces for re-use, but typically non-vital things and not load bearing ribs, frames, structures...
You don't go from this:
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-rest/L017r-01.jpg)
to this:
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-rest/L017r-02.jpg)
by pounding out a few dents and just bolting it on. You create those from scratch. The translated article even mentions something along those lines on one of the image captions. The reason these restorations take years is because they are measuring the parts and hand-fabricating replacements and hand-assembling them.
Or do you think they're taking shattered remnants like this:
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-rest/L017r-06.jpg)
and just welding the shattered shards back together? Doesn't work that way.
From everything I've seen on restorations from various nations on various sizes from single seats to massive bombers, it's a very painstaking process whereby you strip it down and replace shattered and broken parts with hand fabricated new parts, thus replacing the weakened and/or missing parts from scratch. New metal, new strength, but built to old specs. That's what a restoration is these days. Essentially the Flugwerk Fw190 has as much in common to the original Fw190 as some restored planes do. Same plans, same design, new metal.
It's nice that they have the engine blocks for those Jumos, but getting them running is another matter entirely. We didn't have any DBs for many decades because while we had the engine blocks we literally could not build or fabricate the parts we needed with modern technology that they did back then. All the jigs and parts and stores of materials were gone. We literally couldn't fabricate a new camshaft, for example, because it just wouldn't fit or work in an old WW2 engine. I would say Jumos might be a little easier than DBs, but a wrecked engine sitting around for 76 years is not going to just start up if you clean it.
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You miss the point, its not about getting back into the air, that will never happen. The engines will most likely never run but they dont have to. It is going to sit on a museum..
And the cockpit is made with parts from 2 planes..
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Great project!! Also I hadn't heard of "Blackburn Skuas" before so it was a nice introduction to another plane. :aok
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I have sent a few mails to some friends, I hope i can dig up some more info about the project..
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Reason why I'm asking, after reading their posts on the amount of work and effort to restore the engines, they did a LOT more than is required to simply have it as a sitting museum piece - they rebuilt it with the same quality and effort for the engine to run. Hence me going...gebuz, are they rebuilding this plane to fly again?
I've seen a lot of restoration work here at my cities aerospace museum - especially the lancaster where I got a personalized tour including the workshop backroom. When they rebuilt the Merlins - they didn't take apart the entire engine block, clean out the cylinders, put in new piston rings, remake the cam shafts, polish the lifters. All they did was clean up the outside, remove engine oil - pushed in a type of restoration preservative oil over all components, re-did the engine seals so it wouldn't leak, and then put the engine back in.
These guys went all out on the Jumo's.
Complete cleaning and rebuild the internal structure...
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-rest/bild8.jpg)
Restored the Jumo hydraulic pump and generator
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-rest/1610-2.jpg)
Propellor replacement mount restored 100%
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-rest/1610-3.jpg)
Side view
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-rest/bild10.jpg)
Cam put back to factor conditions
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-rest/bild6.jpg)
And take a look at this gearbox!
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-rest/bild5.jpg)
Makes one go - holy smokes - its a whole lotta expense and attention to detail for an Jumo engine that will just sit inside of a museum. :eek:
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anyways...even if all it does is sit in a museum, it's going to be one AMAZING HE-111. :x
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The problem is structural integrity. In order to make a plane like that flying again there is only one option, take the plate with the serial number and build a new plane around it. When you do like them and banging the twisted metal back to the original shape you get Micro cracks etc so you don't have the structural integrity left.
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If they get brought back to flying status, from wreckage like that, I call them resurrections, not restorations.
For either, my hat is off to those who do it. It is a pain staking process.
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Does this include the 111 that was brought up the same time the two 88s were? Those two are being restored too if I remember right. One in Germany and one in Norway.
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AFAIK. No. One 111 was recovered from Norway in 2004 and is being restored in Germany but i dont have any info on that one:
(http://axis.classicwings.com/Luftwaffe/heinkel/images/He%20111%20Jonsvannet_1.jpg)
And there seems to be one in Austria that is being restored to flying condition (with a lot of help from a CASA 2.111)
(http://axis.classicwings.com/Luftwaffe/heinkel/images/CASA2111cn150.jpg)
I dont know how accurate this info is.
http://axis.classicwings.com/Luftwaffe/heinkel/he111.htm
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AFAIK. No. One 111 was recovered from Norway in 2004 and is being restored in Germany but i dont have any info on that one:
(http://axis.classicwings.com/Luftwaffe/heinkel/images/He%20111%20Jonsvannet_1.jpg)
And there seems to be one in Austria that is being restored to flying condition (with a lot of help from a CASA 2.111)
(http://axis.classicwings.com/Luftwaffe/heinkel/images/CASA2111cn150.jpg)
I dont know how accurate this info is.
http://axis.classicwings.com/Luftwaffe/heinkel/he111.htm
The top image is the 111 I was remembering. They got the Ju88s at the same time if memory serves
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Correct, the Germans had a base at the ice of the lake Jonsvatnet in 1940 and a number of aircraft where abandoned and sunk when the ice melted. He 111 and a Ju 88 where recovered in 2003. Another ju 88 was recovered in Norway in 2000 and is also being restored in Germany.
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A very interesting detail, a catapult launch hook, suggesting that the 111 was intended for carrier operations.
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-rest/1706-01.jpg)
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Where is that hook? Could be a hook for the He-111 to tow gliders.
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It would be a lot more resonable if it was a glider tow hook, will try to find out some more about it. A carrier equiped 111 would be a bit sensational..
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Where is that hook? Could be a hook for the He-111 to tow gliders.
Sounds like a safe bet to me!
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From Wiki:
The P-3 was powered with the same DB601A-1 engines. The aircraft was also designed to take off with a land catapult (KL-12). A towing hook was added to the fuselage under the cockpit for the cable. Just eight examples were produced, all without bomb equipment
The problem is that the Heinkel is obviously not a P-3 and it have bomb equipment. So why was this one equipped with the catapult hook?
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It's probably a hook for another purpose. The lock makes me think it was for towing or being towed
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You may be taking it too specifically Zimme. Just because something looks like something used on a carrier doesn't mean this was. Even USAF planes have arrestor hooks, similar to carrier planes. Doesn't mean they're used on carrier decks. There were a number of catapult systems used on dry land. There was always an effort to shorten takeoff runs or to use JATOs to overload a plane's weight and get it safely off the ground. Either this was for towing (which He111s were widely known for -- towing gliders) or it was for some kind of ground catapult system. He111s were also known to haul heavy weights, cargo cannisters, and even versions of the V-1 underneath. There are any number of logical reasons to have that kind of fitting on the airframe.
There was no such thing as a carrier He111.
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They say on the website that rhe hook is for carrier operations, which as i said, would be quite sensational given the size of the 111.
But what ive found out so far is that land catapults indeed was used for the 111 and that it seem like it was not just on a few planes.
(http://www.luftarchiv.de/bordgerate/schlepp12.jpg)
So its the most resonable explanation.
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Got some info on a Swedish aviation history board: An image of a flight test of the rocket plane Bachem Natte, here seen hanging in a wire under a 111, the hook seems to be attached on a similar position as the catapult hook so it might be the same hook used
(https://larsan13.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/tragschlepp.jpg)
Here is an image of the 'land catapult', it seems to be more like a winch similar to those used for gliders:
(http://www.luftarchiv.de/bordgerate/schlepp13.jpg)
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A very interesting detail, a catapult launch hook, suggesting that the 111 was intended for carrier operations.
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-rest/1706-01.jpg)
It appears to be a landing gear unlock.
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It might appear so but it isn't. I now have it pretty much confirmed that it is a hook for the KL-12 Land catapult wire.
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What percentage of accuracy is "pretty much confirmed"?
It appears to be a landing gear unlock.
Pesky spell checker. Intended to say "uplock".
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I would say 80-90%, or as sure as you can be when it comes to a German aircraft from 1940.
And a landing gear uplock would not be mounted under the fuselage.
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The picture provided shows the hook assembly above the level of the fuselage skin, possibly in the landing gear wheel. You've convinced yourself that it's a tow hook. So, you are clearly correct in you're interpretation.
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Again: the hook is not mounted in the wheel well. Its under the nose
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Again: the picture provided doesn't clearly show where on the aircraft it's located.
A very interesting detail, a catapult launch hook, suggesting that the 111 was intended for carrier operations.
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-rest/1706-01.jpg)
Is this photo taken by you?
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I havent taken the photo but ive spoken to people involved in the project.
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OK. The photo doesn't provide a clear picture of where on the aircraft the hook is located. Is there more comprehensive view of the hook area?
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I have no other pic
Here are more about the 111 incl. the catapult,but its in German :D
http://www.bredow-web.de/Sinsheim-Speyer/Heinkel_He_111/Heinkel_He_111_H-16/heinkel_he_111_h-16.html
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Excerpts from the original handbook of Heinkel He 111 H-16 of 1943
General information also
applies to He 111 H-11 and H-14
1. Overview boards
A. Identification of aircraft type
1. Intended use
The model He 111 H-11, H-14 and H-16 are two-motor all-metal deep-fillers with retractable chassis. The aircraft is intended for a crew of five men.
Model H-14 and H-16 can be used as near-, medium- or long-range bombers, as long-range reconnaissance aircraft or U-hunters at day and night. The H-11 model is used as a bomb or torpedo carrier depending on the state of construction. The insert can be used as a bomb carrier as for H-14 and H-16.
The aircraft are catapultable and have a towing device . Furthermore, all airplanes are suitable for use in the tropics .
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I really doubt that it will fly again, that would require that you built a new airplane, you cannot build anything that flies if you start with this:
(http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/pLW/LW017-He111/L017-14.jpg)
Oh yes you can. I’ve seen flyable machines made out of far less/worse.
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you can, but the required parts is hard to get, or very expensive to replace/ manufacture, you need tons of money and skilled workforce to get one into flying condition.
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Skuas were used by 4 frontline squadrons and 22 training squadrons of the RN between 1938 and 1941. There is one exhibited at the Fleet Air Museum in the UK. It sounds fairly unusual that a Skua shot a He111 down. The Skua in the FAA museum suffered engine failure after engaging another He111 and it's exhibited exactly as it was found on a frozen lakebed, with the cockpit having been destroyed by the pilot.