I guess that the nose cone is less resistant than the rest of the plane, it's just covering the radar.
I believe it's usually fibreglass. Bet the leading edges got hammered too. Good job on the windscreens, whoever made those otherwise the pilots would have experienced the ultimate facial scrub :banana:
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: oboe on July 29, 2017, 08:19:33 AM
Wow. I thought it was standard practice to route aircraft AROUND severe weather?
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: DaveBB on July 29, 2017, 08:38:35 AM
How did the turbine blades withstand that?
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Puma44 on July 29, 2017, 11:01:10 AM
Wow. I thought it was standard practice to route aircraft AROUND severe weather?
It is. Flying through a thunderstorm results in this or worse. There is no valid reason to fly through a thunderstorm and it's accompanying hail, microbursts, heavy rain, etc. Of course there will always be those who, for whatever motivation, will continue to do so on occasion and then have to explain to the boss why they did it, if they are still alive.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: icepac on July 29, 2017, 07:19:08 PM
You guys know that hail can be heaved up to 25 miles laterally out of the top of the anvil?
It's pretty hard to predict which 30 degree wide radials that the hail will be at the 25 mile mark.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: oakranger on July 29, 2017, 08:33:39 PM
Not the first time and will not be the last time.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Busher on July 29, 2017, 09:37:24 PM
You guys know that hail can be heaved up to 25 miles laterally out of the top of the anvil?
It's pretty hard to predict which 30 degree wide radials that the hail will be at the 25 mile mark.
With respect, Bullcrap! I flew for the same airline (all over world) for 37 years. I never dinged an airplane nor did any of my peers with a single hail stone. If you never fly the leeward side of a CB and never under its anvil, you won't get hit by hail.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: icepac on July 29, 2017, 10:36:35 PM
How is that bullcrap?
Just because you never dinged a plane doesn't mean it could not happen.
You don't know all the data regarding this flight.
I've never hit any hail in 34 years and my dad never hit any hail in 50 years of flying but it doesn't mean it can't happen in certain conditions.
Flying over 3rd world countries can net you less support than you would like and it's possible that not being allowed to overfly borders could have influenced this plane to cut it too close.
Maybe he didn't have 100 miles to work with.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: nrshida on July 30, 2017, 07:00:33 AM
Uh oh. Forum argument. They can be harder to avoid that hailstorms.
Just because you never dinged a plane doesn't mean it could not happen.
You don't know all the data regarding this flight.
I've never hit any hail in 34 years and my dad never hit any hail in 50 years of flying but it doesn't mean it can't happen in certain conditions.
Flying over 3rd world countries can net you less support than you would like and it's possible that not being allowed to overfly borders could have influenced this plane to cut it too close.
Maybe he didn't have 100 miles to work with.
Thunderstorms don't suddenly jump up and bite you.
You can either fly around them or turn around... but it takes "stones" to tell management that this flight isn't going to arrive at it planned destination.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: icepac on July 30, 2017, 04:46:38 PM
How much support do you think they get in the ukraine?
Do they receive reports from the ground concerning hail?
Did you know that most reports of hail come from ground observation?
How many observers are there per mile in the more sparsely populated parts of ukraine?
Are you familiar with the overflight restrictions in ukraine that can decrease your ability to maintain safe separation?
Are you familiar with what happens in ukraine when you decide to not fly where you are told?
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Zimme83 on July 30, 2017, 05:11:14 PM
Just for clarification: the plane encountered the storm on initial climb from Istanbul.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Busher on July 30, 2017, 08:21:17 PM
How much support do you think they get in the ukraine?
Do they receive reports from the ground concerning hail?
Did you know that most reports of hail come from ground observation?
How many observers are there per mile in the more sparsely populated parts of ukraine?
Are you familiar with the overflight restrictions in ukraine that can decrease your ability to maintain safe separation?
Are you familiar with what happens in ukraine when you decide to not fly where you are told?
All these points and questions are strange to me. 1: In my years of airline flying I never used ground reports to locate hail. Any CB that's contouring on the weather radar could be and likely is producing hail. Don't fly there.
2: Likely true. There are always more people are on the ground than in the cockpit. But airline pilots don't rely on calls from Dispatch to avoid weather.
3: See Answer 2.
4: I have never come across, even in the most track restrictive areas of the world, an air traffic control group that will not accommodate deviations from track do to severe weather. Even if they try to restrict, I ain't flying into the side of that CB.
5: You want to fly with or for an airline where the final decisions for the safety of the airplane and its contents does not rest with the crew in control? If that's the way it is in eastern Europe, I'll take the car thanks.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Puma44 on July 30, 2017, 08:47:55 PM
Just for clarification: the plane encountered the storm on initial climb from Istanbul.
Assuming his wx radar was working, he should have had a very clear indication of solid weather in front of him. If that was the case, why continue? In my experience, it was never a problem to hold on the runway, examine the radar return, and exit the runway if the picture wasn't acceptable.
That Captain was there. I wasn't. I'm sure glad the photo is of him with a severely trashed aircraft and splaining to someone what happened and WHY.....and not me.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: icepac on July 30, 2017, 09:23:03 PM
All these points and questions are strange to me. 1: In my years of airline flying I never used ground reports to locate hail. Any CB that's contouring on the weather radar could be and likely is producing hail. Don't fly there.
2: Likely true. There are always more people are on the ground than in the cockpit. But airline pilots don't rely on calls from Dispatch to avoid weather.
3: See Answer 2.
4: I have never come across, even in the most track restrictive areas of the world, an air traffic control group that will not accommodate deviations from track do to severe weather. Even if they try to restrict, I ain't flying into the side of that CB.
5: You want to fly with or for an airline where the final decisions for the safety of the airplane and its contents does not rest with the crew in control? If that's the way it is in eastern Europe, I'll take the car thanks.
You don't take information directly from the ground but you can be sure that someone at manassas (W10) reporting hail there will make it into information provided by dulles approach.
There is a line of communication from many sources that makes up the information you receive.
You're just not aware of every source that contributes.
Are you aware of airspace restrictions between Istanbul, turkey and Cyprus?
Are you aware of embargo in the area that may restrict where you can overfly?
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Serenity on July 30, 2017, 09:35:22 PM
Assuming his wx radar was working, he should have had a very clear indication of solid weather in front of him. If that was the case, why continue? In my experience, it was never a problem to hold on the runway, examine the radar return, and exit the runway if the picture wasn't acceptable.
That Captain was there. I wasn't. I'm sure glad the photo is of him with a severely trashed aircraft and splaining to someone what happened and WHY.....and not me.
I think icepac is making an important point here. This is Eastern Europe. NOT the US. Now, I don't have any experience flying over there firsthand, but I feel like it's VERY safe to say things are handled very differently. As in, there are likely very different consequences for diverting from the normal plan, and airspace is likely a LOT more restrictive. Especially with everything going on in that region politically at the moment...
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Zimme83 on July 30, 2017, 10:15:31 PM
I don't Think they had the time to fly around the storm since they hit it pretty much immediately after take off. This wasn't the only air Craft damaged by the storm, A Turkish Airlines A321 and a B737 from Pegasus Airlines also suffered damage from the hail storm.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Busher on July 30, 2017, 10:16:42 PM
You don't take information directly from the ground but you can be sure that someone at manassas (W10) reporting hail there will make it into information provided by dulles approach.
There is a line of communication from many sources that makes up the information you receive.
You're just not aware of every source that contributes.
Are you aware of airspace restrictions between Istanbul, turkey and Cyprus?
Are you aware of embargo in the area that may restrict where you can overfly?
I am completely confused as to why you seem to think that only ground personnel can safely help an airliner negotiate its way though severe weather. The NWS and the NOAA are only two of the invaluable resources that pilots and dispatchers rely upon to safely navigate around problems. But weather is so dynamic, the ultimate decision assure the safest track around thunderstorms has to be made by the pilots.
That being said, with the weather avoidance tools available aboard a modern airliner like the a320 and the fact it was a departure incident, I have to agree with Puma44. Delay departure.
Oh ... and to your question about airspace restrictions that currently exist in the Bosphorus, I am 8 years retired... so no.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Puma44 on July 30, 2017, 10:36:15 PM
I don't Think they had the time to fly around the storm since they hit it pretty much immediately after take off. This wasn't the only air Craft damaged by the storm, A Turkish Airlines A321 and a B737 from Pegasus Airlines also suffered damage from the hail storm.
Well, taking off into a thunderstorm is a blatant demonstration of poor judgement. Not to mention unsafe.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Zimme83 on July 30, 2017, 10:59:08 PM
i will wait a bit, with so Little information it's too early to hang someone.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on July 30, 2017, 11:03:40 PM
4: I have never come across, even in the most track restrictive areas of the world, an air traffic control group that will not accommodate deviations from track do to severe weather. Even if they try to restrict, I ain't flying into the side of that CB.
:rofl I can tell u never flew cargo. :rofl. Bit*^" please comes to mind.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Puma44 on July 30, 2017, 11:07:03 PM
No intent to hang anyone. Offering some reality based observations.
It's likely the Captain talking on the cellphone in the photo is trying to come up with some sort of credible explanation for damaging the aircraft.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Zimme83 on July 31, 2017, 12:14:53 AM
3 damaged aircrafts. I doubt the pilot alone is to blame. Weather radars dont pick up dry participation like hail as good as rain so they could have missed it. Wasnt it a delta 320 last year that ended up with similar damage?
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: TyFoo on July 31, 2017, 05:10:34 AM
In the U.S. & Canada, weather radar can identify hail. You would think Turkey would have something of similar technology at an airport that handles that much traffic. Then again maybe not.
Hail is (ice) coated in water and reflects radar energy very well. Dry snow (dry precipitation?) not so much. Dual Polarization Doppler radar can even discriminate between hail and liquid precipitation and even estimate the size of hail.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: icepac on July 31, 2017, 10:14:36 AM
I am completely confused as to why you seem to think that only ground personnel can safely help an airliner negotiate its way though severe weather. The NWS and the NOAA are only two of the invaluable resources that pilots and dispatchers rely upon to safely navigate around problems. But weather is so dynamic, the ultimate decision assure the safest track around thunderstorms has to be made by the pilots.
That being said, with the weather avoidance tools available aboard a modern airliner like the a320 and the fact it was a departure incident, I have to agree with Puma44. Delay departure.
Oh ... and to your question about airspace restrictions that currently exist in the Bosphorus, I am 8 years retired... so no.
You're attributing words to me that I did not express.
Please tell me where I said "only ground personnel can safely help an airliner negotiate its way though severe weather."
When I clearly stated "There is a line of communication from many sources that makes up the information you receive.".
The fact is that this airliner and two others were vectored into the path of the hail in istanbul, turkey.
Are you familiar with the policies of said airlines and ATC in istanbul, turkey?
You do know that "dry hail" (hail that is fully frozen with no liquid on it's surface) will not paint on weather radar?
(http://i.imgur.com/UleHFKD.jpg)
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFwaYabWsAEKTXC.jpg)
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Zimme83 on July 31, 2017, 11:38:15 AM
A Delta A320 after suffering similar damage in a hail storm over the third world country of Colorado: (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/08/08/19/2B3604B200000578-3190510-image-a-48_1439059363606.jpg)
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Busher on July 31, 2017, 08:56:32 PM
If I could respectfully ask... what is your background in aviation?
Respectfully Busher you’re proceeding under a false assumption that a reasonable position or argument is appropriate or valued in an inherently unreasonable domain. You have made your point and established your credentials convincingly. You can step away without conceding a defeat. :salute
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: icepac on August 01, 2017, 09:14:14 AM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Puma44 on August 01, 2017, 11:16:32 AM
If the known facts are that three aircraft encountered hail in the same area on the same departure day, it begs the question; why didn't someone advise the second and third aircraft?
It would be interesting to see the METAR for the departure airport on that day.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Zimme83 on August 01, 2017, 11:23:54 AM
"The violent storm hit the city of Istanbul quickly. Though it only lasted 20 minutes, flash floods happened throughout the area, and traffic was brought to a standstill...."
Akopov was unaware of the storm when he approached the airport. He said, "Our locator did not show this weather disaster, this is why it happened. It was hard, but the main thing is that people are alive.”
The storm hit the area only 10 minutes after the flight took off....""
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: NatCigg on August 01, 2017, 08:06:18 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzYp1BeA8jU
him landing reminds me of playing flight simulator. of course i could see the runway.
good job by him.
:salute
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: nrshida on August 02, 2017, 04:13:40 AM
PAR down to a VERY uncomfortable tower-directed flare and rollout...
You wouldn't need tower for flare or rollout. Radar Altimeter should give you enough info for a satisfactory (not GOOD, just satisfactory) flare, and side windows give you enough information to stay on the runway, but you will likely need a tow after rollout. Would want a runway with plenty of extra length for a long landing, though.
Mike
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Serenity on August 05, 2017, 02:40:02 PM
You wouldn't need tower for flare or rollout. Radar Altimeter should give you enough info for a satisfactory (not GOOD, just satisfactory) flare, and side windows give you enough information to stay on the runway, but you will likely need a tow after rollout. Would want a runway with plenty of extra length for a long landing, though.
Mike
I was assuming the side windows were pretty battered too.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: Zimme83 on August 05, 2017, 03:36:35 PM
Pretty sure they could do a GPS-approach.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: DaveBB on August 06, 2017, 08:59:33 AM
This reminds me a bit of the 747 crew in the early 90s flying over the Pacific. They started noticing St Elmos Fire all over the nose and windscreen of the aircraft. Then the aircraft began losing one engine at a time. Then the visibility on the windscreen went to zero. Then they lost all their engines. As they were gliding to a water landing, they were able to relight all the engines. They made it to their destination (The Phillipines or someplace like that). The aircraft appeared to have been sandblasted. I think they used the side windows to land. There was zero visiblity out of the front windscreens. Only then were they told that Mt. Pinatubo had erupted and they had been flying in increasing dense volcanic ash the farther west they flew.
I watched the Dateline NBC or 60 minutes story of the flight crew. It was fascinating.
Title: Re: Airbus in hail storm
Post by: NatCigg on August 06, 2017, 09:07:46 AM
iirc the plane regained engines, climbed back into the ash layer, and lost engines again!