General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: cav58d on August 07, 2017, 01:25:42 PM
Title: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: cav58d on August 07, 2017, 01:25:42 PM
I would like to finally do some training and get my pistol permit. I live in Connecticut. Any general recommendations on what to look for in a trainer / training course?
Thanks
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: BBQsam on August 07, 2017, 01:32:35 PM
I didn't know they allow guns in Connecticut.
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: FX1 on August 07, 2017, 02:32:50 PM
Practice, practice then practice more. A minuim of 5k in practice rounds with the gun you are going to carry. Unloaded draws and dry fire. I wouldn't start live fire draw practice at all.
Pistols take years or from some a lifetime to master.
I shoot ipsc and icore and we see many newbs start out with very dangerous habits. I good nra instructor that also shoots ipsc is what I would look for.
Also training once a month with 500 rounds will keep your muscle memory tuned. Your firearm is the least expensive piece of equipment. Ammo will become a monthly expenses you should budget for.
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: Ramesis on August 07, 2017, 02:41:51 PM
Join the military... I was in Navy and it was where I got my handgun training :salute
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: flippz on August 07, 2017, 05:27:34 PM
find you an ADP class (American defensive pistol). they are great. teach you a lot of stuff, stuff that makes since but you would never think about. not sure of the gun laws up there. I'm in GA so its a requirement at 21 to own and carry a gun.
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: TequilaChaser on August 07, 2017, 07:52:34 PM
What FX1 posted, find you a NRA instructor and the rest of FX1's post ....
If I remember correctly you can find hand gun instructors on the NRA website, just like they are listed in the 2 (actually 3) magazines the NRA publishes each month.... "American Rifleman" and "American Hunter" (3rd is "America's First Freedom")
If you want to join the NRA (I personally recommend it), you have your choice of which magazine you want to get monthly.... A. Rifleman - mainly for people who like to shoot, buy & collect guns, etc... A. Hunter - mainly for people who like to hunt, etc... America's First Freedom - this magazine is for the NRA's ILA (my parents were part of the founding members of the ILA) gets into laws, rights, gun politics, etc....
Joining the NRA will provide you all types of benefits, discounts, insurance and other things....
The American Rifleman magazine lists shooting competitions throughout the different regions as well as training classes/courses
Just something to consider
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: TequilaChaser on August 07, 2017, 07:56:48 PM
What FX1 posted, find you a NRA instructor and the rest of FX1's post ....
I would personally look for a trainer who has more qualifications then just NRA instructor. Becoming an NRA instructor is probably the lowest bar there is when it comes to firearms instruction. They are basically "safety" instructors and have very little to do with actually teaching situational awareness, tactics, gunfighting, etc... which is what you want if you plan to carry everyday.
By all means an NRA instructor is a great 1st step if you're completely new to firearms, but if that's all the training you're instructor has, then they can't do much for you beyond the very basics of safe firearm handling.
I believe the Sig academy is in NH, that's the only "big name" school I know of in your area off the top of my head. Just look for reviews of potential trainers, talk to people who took their classes. Youtube has mountains of proof that there are lots and lots of horrible "trainers" out there.
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: saggs on August 07, 2017, 09:36:55 PM
Here are some examples of some terrible "instructors" if you ever find yourself in a class like this RUN AWAY!
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: saggs on August 07, 2017, 09:54:22 PM
Not really training, but I've found the "First Person Defender" video series from Gun Talk helpful just as far as the thinking and situational awareness part goes. At least gets you thinking of how you would handle certain scenarios.
the requirement part was joke because most of guys in GA have/had guns since we could walk good. and actually I just bought my son a savage single shot .22 rifle for his 5th birthday in September. he is already shooting my s&w m&p15-22 just don't fit him real good. so the requirement thing was kinda of a joke. but in Kennesaw ga there is still a law that every law abiding house in the city must posses a firearm. and I agree with someone other that NRA instructor. as they are a good foundation (how to hold,load and fire a firearm) there are real life training that needs to be applied. when I took my classes at the ADPA class they taught from basics to an actual walk through firing scenario. also like I said common sense stuff about what is good home defense ammo and how to use it. why sometimes a 18" barrel is better and why 14" barrels are better. also why you don't walk through the house with the flash light on and why they have strobes on the lights. things I didn't ever think about and have been around guns near my whole life
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: cav58d on August 07, 2017, 10:07:26 PM
Hey about that, my wife has actually agreed to taking the course with me too! I'm surprised, but if there is going to be a fire arm in the home, it would be foolish not to have her take a course.
I have no interest in ever carrying a firearm on me outside of my home other then to the range, or remote hiking.
This would be almost exclusively for home defense. In Connecticut you have to have a pistol permit to purchase a shotgun/rifle, so I need to take this course regardless, but for home defense would you recommend a pistol or a shotgun for a new owner that is willing to learn, and continue to learn the craft well after initial certification.
Thanks
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: Vudu15 on August 07, 2017, 11:17:25 PM
Well I can say as a certified NRA Basic Pistol Instructor that most are goons who have some time and money. I do not fit the goon category but some of the ones I sat through the course with were.
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: saggs on August 07, 2017, 11:57:19 PM
Hey about that, my wife has actually agreed to taking the course with me too! I'm surprised, but if there is going to be a fire arm in the home, it would be foolish not to have her take a course.
I have no interest in ever carrying a firearm on me outside of my home other then to the range, or remote hiking.
This would be almost exclusively for home defense. In Connecticut you have to have a pistol permit to purchase a shotgun/rifle, so I need to take this course regardless, but for home defense would you recommend a pistol or a shotgun for a new owner that is willing to learn, and continue to learn the craft well after initial certification.
Thanks
A shotgun is generally more effective at stopping bad guys IF YOU HIT THEM, but it can also be harder to wield if you have tight spaces or hallways/doors in your home, and generally has far less magazine capacity. A handgun is small, concealable, easy to wield and can have 18 or more rounds in the magazine, but are far weaker then a shotgun or rifle. To summarize, *Handgun = more chances to hit bad guy, but each hit is weaker* *Shotgun = fewer chances and possibly harder to hit bad guy, but each hit is much stronger* Also don't believe the Hollywood BS that you don't need to aim a shotgun, the shot spread over a typical room distance in a home defense scenario would be smaller then your fist. There is not do it all perfect firearm, everything is a trade-off.
Believe it or not AR-15 platform rifles make excellent home defense weapons also, they do more far more damage then a handgun, have double or triple the magazine capacity, very little recoil ( easy to shoot) excellent ergonomics and with a cheap red dot sight or laser it's easier to hit a target. And with the right ammo, over-penetration is not really an issue either. Although I guess an AR-15 might not be an option in Connecticut, do they have as silly of gun laws as NJ, NY and MA?
If you do go the shotgun route, consider something like a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500. They are cheap, reliable, and you can put a long barrel on it for hunting or skeet/trap and swap out a short barrel (18") for home defense. Also if you or your wife is intimidated by a big 12ga shotgun, then get a 16ga or 20ga. In close quarters even a 20ga with #7 birdshot is sufficient to make a bad guy take notice.
Bottom line is anything is better then nothing. I carry a pistol when I'm out and about town, I always have a rifle in the truck, and I have a shotgun and plethora of other firearms at home. So just get whatever your comfortable with, then go train and practice, and practice and train.
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: TequilaChaser on August 08, 2017, 01:23:52 AM
Guess I should have been more detailed in my post regarding "NRA instructor"
If you look at what I posted, I was (without the quotation marks", quoting FX1 regarding working with a "GOOD" NRA instructor that also shoots ipsc....
As for my referencing the American Rifleman magazine...(or even AmericanRifleman.org)
This magazine is always listing shooting competitions, training classes/training courses for police officers, SWAT, other federal law divisions as well as training for civilians...
Probably your best bet for your location is to go to your local Sheriff's office and ask your Sheriff who might they recommend (or Police Chief)
Flippy, I figured that you was most likely joking (even if it's partially has a bit of truth to it)
You know times have really changed when like back when I was 7 years old, I could come home from school do my homework, chores, feed and water our 30+ Blueticks, Walkers, etc....then grab either my Remington 1100 20ga. (for Quail or Dove hunting) or grab my Browning .22 longrifle XLR Lever-action to go squrril hunting....with me and 1 of the dogs walk out and across the yard, crossing the road I lived on and any one of the neighbors would see me, asking me if I was going hunting? I would tell them yes, tell them what I was going to hunt and all that ever was said to me was good luck hope you get some and becareful......
These days, someone see a 7 yr old kid with a shotgun or rifle and they panic and hit 911 on the phone....
Yeah Vudu15, I understand that there are goons in all walks of life.... I keep forgetting how detailed and thorough one has to post or reply here on this forum....
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: FLS on August 08, 2017, 01:27:08 AM
I would like to finally do some training and get my pistol permit. I live in Connecticut. Any general recommendations on what to look for in a trainer / training course?
Thanks
Talk to these guys. Great place great people.
http://bluetrailrange.com/instruction/
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: Gman on August 08, 2017, 03:54:40 AM
Quote
I believe the Sig academy is in NH, that's the only "big name" school I know of in your area off the top of my head. Just look for reviews of potential trainers, talk to people who took their classes. Youtube has mountains of proof that there are lots and lots of horrible "trainers" out there.
I was an instructor for Sigarms Academy for nearly a decade (It's renamed to Sig Sauer Academy now, but it's in the same location). It's a great school, with excellent instructors and a long legacy, it was around before the explosion of defense related schools, back when there was only a dozen or so quality places in the USA. Now there are hundreds, and many great instructors, just do your research on both the type of training you want, and where who you're considering getting it from. There are forums and YT videos beyond counting you can research before you spend your $.
Quote
A shotgun is generally more effective at stopping bad guys IF YOU HIT THEM, but it can also be harder to wield if you have tight spaces or hallways/doors in your home, and generally has far less magazine capacity. A handgun is small, concealable, easy to wield and can have 18 or more rounds in the magazine, but are far weaker then a shotgun or rifle. To summarize, *Handgun = more chances to hit bad guy, but each hit is weaker* *Shotgun = fewer chances and possibly harder to hit bad guy, but each hit is much stronger* Also don't believe the Hollywood BS that you don't need to aim a shotgun, the shot spread over a typical room distance in a home defense scenario would be smaller then your fist. There is not do it all perfect firearm, everything is a trade-off.
Believe it or not AR-15 platform rifles make excellent home defense weapons also, they do more far more damage then a handgun, have double or triple the magazine capacity, very little recoil ( easy to shoot) excellent ergonomics and with a cheap red dot sight or laser it's easier to hit a target. And with the right ammo, over-penetration is not really an issue either. Although I guess an AR-15 might not be an option in Connecticut, do they have as silly of gun laws as NJ, NY and MA?
Disagree with some of this, agree with others (Ar15 part) - just because most handguns have a larger magazine capacity in no way makes them easier to use than a shotgun, in terms of getting hits. Any shoulder supported weapon is vastly superior to any handgun in terms of pointability, sight radius/length, accuracy potential, controlability, and many other factors, especially under stress conditions when the blood leaves your extremities and gross motor control takes over from fine motor control. Anytime you can pick a shoulder supported weapon over a handgun if you know you're going into a fight, you should. That's not to say that a handgun doesn't have some advantages over a shotgun or carbine/rifle, or that a handgun alone is a poor choice, however within the confines of most enclosed space fighting, including the typical home, a 20" or less barrel shotgun is easily maneuverable enough in this environment that using it's length as a reason for it being inferior to a handgun indoors is something you'll find 99.9% of the instructors out there rejecting.
Agree re: AR15s and any 556 caliber rifle, which is a good choice too, even inside the home. Due to the velocity and composition of many of the rounds, they are actually less likely to overpenetrate and strike things you don't want to hit beyond your home than many handgun or shotgun rounds, as the bullet will frequently fragment when it hits things like wood frames, furniture, many layers of walls/insulation/etc. There is some variance to this, and there are many videos online where people have tested this in old abandoned homes.
This all said, getting a handgun and some training is a great place to start. Learning to accurately shoot and manage a handgun is more difficult than a shoulder supported weapon like a shotgun or rifle as I said, so it's actually a great skill to learn first, as picking up shotgun or rifle shooting later, the same skills will transfer over, and it'll all seem much easier, again due to the nature of shoulder supported firearms.
Just pick a good quality handgun, Sig, Glock, whatever, find something that you're comfortable with, that fits your hand, and has a system that you like, be it double action/single action, striker fired, etc. Then take some training from a reputable school or instructor. You can train a lot on your own after this, others mentioned dry fire training, and this is critical, I had the 75/25 rule trained into me, that you should press that trigger training 3x more at least doing dry fire drills than your actual live fire training. There are many techniques you can use to learn proper fire/trigger control while dry firing, and train yourself to keep that sight picture perfectly alinged and stationary while moving your trigger, resetting it, and then moving it again.
Once you have some good initial training, there are many ways you can "self train" be it DVDs, books, etc However before that, in terms of learning the critical skills such as proper safety, muzzle direction control, safety ergonomics in terms of where your trigger finger goes and when, safe drawing and reholstering, and basic shooting fundamentals such as grip, stance, sight picture, fire control, follow through, reloads, clearance drills, and basic movement on a flat range, etc - you really do need professional in person instruction IMO, at LEAST a full day of it, of not more.
Also, as the OP said he's only interested in having a handgun for home defense, I'd recommend taking some specific training for that - IE don't waste your $ on a concealed carry course if you're not going to be doing that, take a basic combat/pistol course, one that focuses on indoor and close quarter shooting. There is also a ton of good info out there on preparing for a fight in your home, such as specific ways to set up your furniture to create advantages, techniques for setting up places threats will most likely go for cover, places that you can know beforehand and have spots/marks on walls for targets in order to shoot targets trying to use concealment and cover against you, and so on. I'd also highly, highly recommend you get some training on using a flashlight, as being indoors it's a coin flip if you're going to be fighting in the dark or not, your home or not, and locating, and most importantly identifying a threat in your home before engaging it is critical. Many courses will include some basic yet effective training on how to employ a white light in terms of defensive handgun shooting.
Last thing, if you're buying a handgun for home defense only, I'd recommend picking up a few other items to store with it. Body armor is very cheap, you can pick up vests from all over the place for a couple hundred bucks or even less from Surplus places - having armor on significantly increases your chances of surviving a fight, even in your own home. Store a good flashlight designed for fighting, your armor, extra magazines, a backup cell phone - even an old one that's been registered can always still call 911, and having comms can be critical if your main phone isn't with you, you can barricaded in a room without a phone, and umpteen other unforseable reasons. Also, first aid stuff - SO many people, even experience shooters, focus so much on the weapons and shooting end of defending themselves and their home, yet have NO first aid equipment or training to deal with hits friendlies may take. When a shooting happens, frequently the police won't even let emergency service/medics in until they are convinced it's secured, meanwhile you or a family member could be bleeding out waiting for help to come, from a wound you could have easily treated with the right equipment and training. Get yourself some of that training, and spend the 50 bucks it costs for a couple tourniquets, bandages, a chest decomp needle, etc. If you're getting a firearm to defend your home, spend a couple hundred extra and get the stuff you should have to increase your odds - greatly - of surviving that defense should it ever happen.
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: eagl on August 08, 2017, 07:13:22 AM
I highly recommend separating any permit/certification/qualification courses from your actual shooting training. Nothing screams wanna-be like a basic concealed carry permit course instructor trying to get all tactical with what should be a simple qualification test. If the CCW instructor goes any deeper into handgun technique than "try to not jerk the trigger on the first shot", chances are the guy is a wanna-be swat fanboy.
Separate the two. Get a CCW course instructor that teaches the course and doesn't try to teach you how to shoot or tactics. If you don't already know how to shoot well enough to pass a CCW qualification test, then take a basic handgun course first, then the CCW. Then if you are interested in tactical shooting or target shooting (competitions can be FUN and there are many different types out there), then sign up for those courses and have fun.
I was lucky, I stiff-armed the CCW course that seemed to want to teach people tactics and took a course that was 100% on-target teaching the CCW specific material. We did the state-mandated slides over several hours, went to the range, popped off 40 rounds with ZERO instruction except for people who specifically asked for it, and boom we got our paperwork and got out of there without some idiot trying to teach tactical shooting in 30 minutes with only 40 rounds of ammo (not possible).
If you get stuck taking a permit course from some dude who wants to inject his super powerful tactical elite SWAT skillz into the qualification course of fire, you're probably going to be stuck trying to figure out how to ignore his instruction without giving him an excuse to fail you for not using whatever leet techniques he is spouting. Get your score and leave, and leave feedback about how the CCW specific stuff was great and the short-course tactical training was stupid and encourages people who conceal carry to imagine themselves as being tactically trained rambo types. Remember, any tactical training during a CCW course is being given by a giant sweetheart, and you'll get killed trying to follow his bad advice. Get the permit, then sign up for separate tactical training where they actually have time and a mandate to teach real shooting techniques.
Enough of a rant? I spent a few weeks getting *real* combat shooting instruction from no-kidding retired Navy SEAL instructors (the kind of guys who retire early because their seal team got the crap shot out of them in Falluja but they somehow survived in spite of being poked full of bullet holes) and it gave me a real appreciation for "real" tactical handgun training. It took days on the range for those guys to pass along the absolute basics of combat shooting, and there's no way in hell any techniques you get as a bonus add-on during a CCW course are going to do you any good.
Oh yea. After the course, there is no substitute for regular practice. You don't need to put down 1000 rounds per day every day in order to get competent, but you probably ought to shoot a box or two at least monthly if you think you might ever have to actually use a gun. If you don't shoot regularly, at the very least your adrenaline spike at the first bang will completely throw you off. It takes regular exposure to keep most people's natural reflexes under control. Adrenaline is a reflex response to stress, nothing you can do about it unless you train it away and keep it suppressed through regular training. So go shooting every once in a while after your training courses are done.
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: FX1 on August 08, 2017, 12:13:17 PM
I have been shooting skeet and trap this summer and really haven't shot my pistol at all. Last weekend I missed four times on a large pig when I should have hit on the first and second shot. Thought my red dot was off but found out I was pushing shots. Only took a couple magazines and I was cleaning the plate rack with lighting speed.
With a shotgun I have never felt the need to train as nearly as much.
I would recommend a good 12ga for a pure defence weapon and Its what I give to new hunters when we are pig hunting.
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: FLS on August 08, 2017, 01:19:09 PM
In Connecticut you have to have a pistol permit to purchase a shotgun/rifle, ...
I don't believe that's correct. You only need a pistol permit to avoid a waiting period after purchase. Last time I checked you can buy any firearm without a pistol permit.
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: flippz on August 08, 2017, 06:02:59 PM
I have been shooting skeet and trap this summer and really haven't shot my pistol at all. Last weekend I missed four times on a large pig when I should have hit on the first and second shot. Thought my red dot was off but found out I was pushing shots. Only took a couple magazines and I was cleaning the plate rack with lighting speed.
With a shotgun I have never felt the need to train as nearly as much.
I would recommend a good 12ga for a pure defence weapon and Its what I give to new hunters when we are pig hunting.
fx where do you shoot at? I use to shoot sporting clays (prekids). use to shoot bout 500 rds a week during the clays season.absoluetly loved shooting clays
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: FX1 on August 08, 2017, 06:13:05 PM
All around central texas. Mostly in san Antonio at a couple of the nra ranges. I also have a new wobble trap at the ranch. We set up a super cool trap area near the pool. I made it so that you can call pull from waste deep water.
Been shooting a watermelon ton of 28ga and 410. The 410 is very frustrating...
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: Widewing on August 08, 2017, 11:16:35 PM
I was an instructor for Sigarms Academy for nearly a decade (It's renamed to Sig Sauer Academy now, but it's in the same location). It's a great school, with excellent instructors and a long legacy, it was around before the explosion of defense related schools, back when there was only a dozen or so quality places in the USA. Now there are hundreds, and many great instructors, just do your research on both the type of training you want, and where who you're considering getting it from. There are forums and YT videos beyond counting you can research before you spend your $.
I did some rifle testing on several occasions at the SIGARMS Academy in Exeter. Bank Miller and George Harris were extremely helpful.
I was testing the SIG 550. I instrumented the rifle and recorded its recoil impulse. I then tested several shot counters installed on the rifle. Burned through a lot of 5.56mm frangible ammo... I also brought along an M16A3, which we also tested.
We were treated with great kindness....
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: Gman on August 08, 2017, 11:41:40 PM
Bank Miller was my boss when I worked for Sig, and I received much of my initial training from him. Before the big explosion of "tactical" shooting schools, like I said, SigArms Academy was one of just a small number of large professional ranges and companies doing that type of training - Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, FrontSite, Rogers Shooting School (the best IMO) - there weren't many places, but the people doing training were all of excellent caliber. Bank had ran the FBI and DEA weapons training divisions in firearms both during his career, and was responsible for setting up the Air Marshall training and quals for DHS when they first spun up too. He is an exceptional shooter, and an even better teacher.
The facilities are excellent there, Devgru and other high speed US and NATO units use Sig Sauer Academy for some of their training, as well as Rogers School as well, still to this day. One of the main instructors currently running Sig is Harry Bologna, who was Devgru's CBQ instructor for the last part of his career in NSW, and is an incredible resource on the science of gun fighting, having been responsible for training units that are at the very sharp end. Just browse through the current cadre of instructors on the website, everyone there is going to have a LOT of experience in training others, and most have real world shooting experience as well. Sig has indoor ranges all set up for frangible, and was an early adopter of that stuff, so there could be 360 fire set up on some of the newer indoor ranges, which is something the military units really liked, not being limited to a flat 90 degree range.
Sig 550- here in Canada we get the PE90/550 rifles in semi auto direct from Switzerland/Swiss Arms, probably the best out of the box 556 battle rifle made IMO. Incredible accuracy and reliability with the long stroke piston system it has, it's like the perfect blend of AK reliability and functionality with AR platform accuracy - and then some. Every rifle I've unboxed from Swiss arms, over 1000 of them circa 2003 or so, come with a 300 meter electronic range test target of 10 rounds. All shoot a sub 3" group, some better, and I've seen even the 10" variants holding that sub MOA grouping at 300m. Great rifles, built in bipod, tritium irons, the only minus if you can call it that is the rock/cam in magazine system, instead of a direct insert/drop like the AR platform. The mags can be locked together though, so it's simple to have dual magazines on the rifle and in your pouches, all with the rounds "up" so as not to bash or get dirt/crap into the rounds and feed lips.
WideWing's final though about great kindness - this is something I feel is very important in an school or instructor, the worst thing in the world is some aggressive yahoo as Eagl was describing you can wind up with (There are a number of infamous Youtube instructors who fit this bill). I don't care if a guy can shoot the lights out of every event he enters, and max every course of fire or drill set up, if he's a loud mouth buffoon and relates poorly with people, that defect will shine through brighter than his shooting skills and experience. A trainer must be a teacher more than anything else IMO in the firearms business, and everyone knows that their best teachers in school were the ones you both liked and respected, and who treated you with the same. This is the big advantage of training at a large well known facility and school, the odds are very high that any instructor there will be well vetted and extremely professional. This isn't to say there aren't fantastic pros with smaller schools, or no school at all, again, just do a lot of research first before signing up and paying for anything.
Title: Re: Pistol Permit / Gun Training
Post by: SlipKnt on August 09, 2017, 10:29:59 AM
Any NRA class would do. Make sure they are state certified instructors.
Three things you need.
1st is getting the actual permit. Take the safety course. The only thing I got out of it was who to call once you discharge your weapon. But that is all you really need to know if you intend to carry at all.
2nd is to get a lot of firing time. Practice shots at 5 yards, 10 yards, 15 yards, and 25 yards.
3rd is take a tactical course if you never served in law enforcement or the military. They have a lot to offer and are worth the money if you are into that sort of thing.