Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: BFOOT1 on September 22, 2017, 07:54:04 AM
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Saw this on Ebay, what do you guys think? Supposed to be Kidd's jacket from WWII, very interesting if it really is.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lt-Ralph-K-Kid-Hofer-Flight-Jacket-Lot-625-/263196025434?hash=item3d47b4a25a:g:pL8AAOSw~gxZs0fl
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Looks to be in great shape for a 70+ year old jacket.
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It has been restored, I'm guessing the entire interior was replaced during a recent restoration. I'm still not certain it is the original jacket.
That said, it is still worth more than $100, but it belongs in a museum. /indianajonesrant off
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Looks more like new, modern manufacture. The painted figure on the back looks very new and recent vs from 70ish years ago. Would expect figure and it’s color to have faded over the years. It does look very good though.
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The description says the painting has been restored and even tells the name of the restoring artist.
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Does it mention how they acquired this item?
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Does it mention how they acquired this item?
According to the seller, it is supposed to come with a letter written in 1993 detailing how the jacket came to be and etc.
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Not a snowball's chance in hell that it's Hofer's
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The description says the painting has been restored and even tells the name of the restoring artist.
I read that part also. Anyone could write up the description, a letter, etc. The jacket is in suspiciously good condition for its age.
Buyer beware.
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Yepp. The knit cuffs and hem look surprisingly good for that age. They even seem to feature some pilling which AFAIK is a feature of modern (semi)synthetic fibres. What I saw might also be an artifact left from poor image processing, though.
As for the lining having been replaced or not, or the leather being softened, I don't know. Nothing has been told about if the jacket has been used after Hofer's death. If it was put into naphthalene in '44 and stored in a dry place, only the leather would have suffered from getting too dry. As the description said, it was terribly stiff. As a reference, I bought a M39 Swedish Army Backpack, the latest of which were made in the '60s. Brand new, but the leather parts were very hard and brittle and the rivets were oxidized. Also, the canvas had a smell of mildew. A machine wash and a couple of treatments with leather balm fixed all issues.
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Not a snowball's chance in hell that it's Hofer's
+1
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Hofer was listed as missing in action IIRC. I have a deep feeling this is nothing but an attempt to get a few quick bucks on someones' part. As I recall no one that I remember actually saw him go down.
My memory is failing somewhat as I get older but that is what I recall reading. Kid Hofer would at times go sight seeing on his own. So being shot down is a very good possibility. But as I recall no one saw him go down.
Please correct me if I am mistaken.
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His book is on the way to me as we speak, but I believe he was last seen strafing over Budapest, and never returned home.
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Hofer was listed as missing in action IIRC. I have a deep feeling this is nothing but an attempt to get a few quick bucks on someones' part. As I recall no one that I remember actually saw him go down.
My memory is failing somewhat as I get older but that is what I recall reading. Kid Hofer would at times go sight seeing on his own. So being shot down is a very good possibility. But as I recall no one saw him go down.
Please correct me if I am mistaken.
He could have had multiple jackets, but this looks like a fake.
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Was that typical, to have multiple jackets?
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He generally wore a football jersey when he flew. Probably under something. :grin:
http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media?search=Hofer&type=&collection= (http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media?search=Hofer&type=&collection=)
On 2 July 1944 the 4th joined fighters from the 15th Air Force to escort bombers on a raid to Budapest, Hungary. A group of Me-109s came up in force, and Ralph's element leader, having engine trouble, was shot down; Hofer then went off alone and was never seen again.
Assuming that Ralph had been shot down, there ensued many stories as to who was responsible, for the kill. Hofer was such a high-scoring icon that any German pilot would have been proud tom have credit for his destruction. Research soon discovered that two of the major claimants' stories were dismissed as false. It then became possible that he had been shot down by a young Hungarian pilot,, but unfortunately, before the investigation could be completed, this pilot was killed. In any event, Hofer's plane had crashed with his body in it, and he was buried in Mostar, Yugoslavia, about three hundred miles from where his group had engaged in fighting the Luftwaffe. Years later, investigation concluded that the most likely cause of the Kidd's demise was a flak battery, and that in his final act he rammed the battery as he went down, killing some of the gunners.
Despite his behavior and rogue tactics he flew 74 missions with the 4th Fighter Group and scored 30.5 enemy aircraft destroyed. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross with three Oak Leaf Clusters, the Air Medal with one Oak Leaf Cluster, and the Purple Heart.
Hofer's body was later reintered at a mass grave at Jefferson National Cemetery.
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Was that typical, to have multiple jackets?
Probably not, but Hofer was anything but typical. :rofl
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Heh, I agree with others, the odds of this being legit are astronomically small. I collect swords among other things, and Ebay is always good for some laughs in the "authentic/historical Japanese swords" category. A friend who runs the Japanese Sword Society of Canada has saved me from buying a couple that looked more legit than this jacket, but turned out to be well constructed reproductions - a nice way of saying "fake".
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You think the swords are bad on eBay, just search some WWII artifacts, and that'll give ya a laugh. One seller claimed to be selling a 506th PIR, Easy Co helmet from D-Day...
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I see that often in antique stores with military stuff. The tag will say something like "WWII canteen" yet the manufacturing date stamp on the canteen will be 1953 or something. Usually a seller that is ignorant of the item.
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I want it to be his but don't think you could ever know for sure since it was restored. But it is possible it is real I guess.
That artwork is from when he started out flying P-47s. He only flew them for a short while. I guess the jacket could have been stored or sent home when he started flying 51s and it would have been worn very little.
Also his personal effects were sent home to his wife per protocol at the time. His mother said she never got anything of his back. Hofer supposedly married a mobster's daughter under duress possibly. :devil Shortly after this is when he ended up in the RCAF and was possibly running away from the father and daughter according to rumor. So who knows if this was possibly in those effects or ones sent home previously. I always wondered if the wife threw them away or stashed them in an attic. I would bet the attic.
The best book I have read on Hofer and supposedly gives the real story on what happened to him.
http://www.starduststudios.com/kidd-hofer---last-of-the-screwball-aces.html
Here is a great article on Hofer and partial review of the book and the new info in it.
http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/wwii-fighter-aces-ralph-k-kid-hofer/
A couple of passages from the book and article that might be of interest. :cheers:
For decades since the war, Hofer’s exact fate has remained a mystery, leaving historians to speculate on the events of his final mission on July 2, 1944. Recent research, however, has uncovered a number of facts that bring closure to his story and which now make it possible to piece together the fate of this remarkable pilot.
What Really Happened to Kid Hofer?
The first break in the case took place in the 1990s when the recollections of George Stanford, a former pilot in the 335th Squadron came to light in a memoir by former 4th Fighter Group pilot Frank Speer and later in Speer’s history of the group, The Debden Warbirds. On the July 2, 1944, mission to Budapest, Stanford had been leading the 335th Squadron with Hofer filling in as his wingman. At the start of the engagement with the Me-109s, Stanford was beset with mechanical difficulties. His drop tanks refused to jettison, and then suddenly his engine threw a piston rod forcing him to break away and head for the deck.
With no hope of nursing the crippled engine back to Italy, Stanford belly landed in a Hungarian wheatfield and was later taken prisoner. While standing near the wreckage of his plane, he spotted a lone P-51, which proceeded to buzz him at low level. The plane, he related years later, was none other than that of his wingman, Ralph Hofer, who apparently followed him down. What Stanford then saw behind the unsuspecting Hofer made his heart sink—an Me-109 following in perfect firing position. The Messerschmitt opened fire just before the two aircraft disappeared from sight, leaving Stanford convinced of Hofer’s fate.
Stanford’s account brought more pieces of the puzzle into place before the full story was uncovered. Subsequent research into Hungarian military records revealed that one Ensign Leo Krizsevszky, a pilot in the Me-109 equipped 101 “Puma” Regiment of the Hungarian Air Force, had in fact claimed an American P-51 on July 2, 1944. Full credit was withheld since Krizsevszky was unable to give the exact location of his victim, and no wreckage had turned up on Hungarian soil. Furthermore, Krizsevszky was killed on July 26, 1944, while attacking 15th Air Force bombers en route to targets in Austria.
While the claim of the Hungarian pilot dovetailed with the account of George Stanford, it did little to explain why Hofer’s body was recovered near Morstar, Yugoslavia, some 300 miles from Budapest. It was not until aviation artist and Hofer biographer Troy White published his book Kidd Hofer: Last of the Screwball Aces in 2003 that full details of the young ace’s final mission could be pieced together. Through painstaking research in both German and Yugoslav military records, White reveals that Hofer was not downed by an enemy fighter pilot, but like so many Allied aces of World War II, he succumbed to ground fire over the German operated Morstar Sud airfield.
As White points out, it is entirely possible that Hofer was attacked and possibly damaged by Krizsevszky as was recounted by George Stanford. White further argues, convincingly, that Hofer may have been attempting to nurse his damaged Mustang back to Italy and was attempting an emergency landing at the German base, or in keeping with his character, he may even have intended to strafe the field. What is certain according to the records of the flak unit stationed at Morstar Sud airfield is that a P-51 was shot down at low level and crashed into one of the drome’s flak emplacements at 1204 hours on July 2, 1944. The body of the American pilot was subsequently identified as Lieutenant Ralph K. Hofer, 334th Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Group, USAAF.
Ralph Hofer’s short but eventful career with the 4th Fighter Group has earned him a distinguished place within the legend and lore of World War II aviation. Among a breed of individuals for whom flamboyance and daring were hallmarks, Hofer stood out as exceptional to the point of reckless. His very involvement in the air war was the result of an unforeseen opportunity, which he immediately seized. His approach to combat flying was little different, and to close with the enemy he took every opportunity as it came without concern for the risk. Ranked as number 20 among some 260 Eighth Air Force fighter aces of World War II, Hofer demonstrated the old adage that fortune favors the bold, but also proved that fortune can be an all too fleeting commodity.
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great post, Frodo. thanks for all of the info. :cheers: interesting stuff.
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Currently reading the book by White now, it is awesome!!
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Currently reading the book by White now, it is awesome!!
:cheers: Went through his hometown (Salem) on Thursday.
The auction is live now with 100s of lots. Some interesting stuff for sure.
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Currently reading the book by White now, it is awesome!!
Too rich for my blood. Can't believe it hasn't had a new printing.
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http://www.starduststudios.com/kidd-hofer---last-of-the-screwball-aces.html
$65 :cheers:
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http://www.starduststudios.com/kidd-hofer---last-of-the-screwball-aces.html
$65 :cheers:
Ouch. Still steep. Maybe be after I finish THE FLYING GREEK I will look into it.
:cheers:
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The Greeks story is amazing also. :aok
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The Greeks story is amazing also. :aok
Great so far. :aok
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There are lots of books on the 4th and lots of 4th FG junkies, yours truly and Fencer being part of that crowd. In my humble opinion the best 4th FG biography is the one written by Johnny Godfrey before he succumbed to Lou Gehrig's Disease in the late 50s. "The Look of Eagles" is my absolute favorite.
Of course to really start on the 4th you need a copy of '1000 Destroyed" by Grover Hall. Actually his first book Mrs. Tettley's Tennants" would be the one, but they go for a fortune and it was the predecessor to 1000 Destroyed. If you want other 4th titles give a yell as I'm sure we can bury you in them :)
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There are lots of books on the 4th and lots of 4th FG junkies, yours truly and Fencer being part of that crowd. In my humble opinion the best 4th FG biography is the one written by Johnny Godfrey before he succumbed to Lou Gehrig's Disease in the late 50s. "The Look of Eagles" is my absolute favorite.
Of course to really start on the 4th you need a copy of '1000 Destroyed" by Grover Hall. Actually his first book Mrs. Tettley's Tennants" would be the one, but they go for a fortune and it was the predecessor to 1000 Destroyed. If you want other 4th titles give a yell as I'm sure we can bury you in them :)
I have a copy of 1000 DESTROYED. I was gonna have it re-bound because the glue has dried up but figure I can give it a good home. If anyone is interested I am glad to sell if cheap. I know it's outrageously priced, too.
Godfrey's is on my list.
I met Blakeslee and got his autograph back in college. Man he was funny. Very personable chap.
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I have a copy of 1000 DESTROYED. I was gonna have it re-bound because the glue has dried up but figure I can give it a good home. If anyone is interested I am glad to sell if cheap. I know it's outrageously priced, too.
Godfrey's is on my list.
I met Blakeslee and got his autograph back in college. Man he was funny. Very personable chap.
There are at least four printings of 1000 Destroyed. The last was a gawd awful paperback renamed "Death Squadron". An original first printing is pricey but the reprints from 1960 and 78(?) aren't too bad. I started with one of the 70s editions back in the 70s :) I worked back to a 1960 version and finally a couple years ago was able to get a first printing. Each are just a little bit different, with the images inside. My first sounds like yours. It came apart in the binding.
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There are at least four printings of 1000 Destroyed. The last was a gawd awful paperback renamed "Death Squadron". An original first printing is pricey but the reprints from 1960 and 78(?) aren't too bad. I started with one of the 70s editions back in the 70s :) I worked back to a 1960 version and finally a couple years ago was able to get a first printing. Each are just a little bit different, with the images inside. My first sounds like yours. It came apart in the binding.
Mine is the version with the white dust jacket. Must be the 1978 edition.
https://www.amazon.com/1000-Destroyed-Times-Fighter-Group/dp/0816850046/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506815133&sr=8-1&keywords=1000+destroyed
Sucks that it came apart... Easy enough to fix though I guess. Looks like prices have returned to sanity.
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Mine is the version with the white dust jacket. Must be the 1978 edition.
https://www.amazon.com/1000-Destroyed-Times-Fighter-Group/dp/0816850046/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506815133&sr=8-1&keywords=1000+destroyed
Sucks that it came apart... Easy enough to fix though I guess. Looks like prices have returned to sanity.
Yep that the 70s version. Same one I started with.