Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Vraciu on September 29, 2017, 10:06:08 PM
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Action starts right after 10:30 - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M29tkXQOAq8
These people will never learn...
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WTH?!
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looks like it clipped the left horizontal stabilizer.
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WTH?!
That was my reaction. He couldn't have made a more direct beeline had he tried. SMH.
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looks like it clipped the left horizontal stabilizer.
There's footage of the landing. The stab is mangled. There's a mayday call and he comes in right over the cameraman.
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http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/pictures-show-damage-vintage-plane-13671875
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Very lucky as far as mid air collisions go.
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Very lucky as far as mid air collisions go.
They looked pretty tangled up there... I still can't quite visualize what hit where.
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There's footage of the landing. The stab is mangled. There's a mayday call and he comes in right over the cameraman.
Yea, that's what i was looking at as when the camera got a close up as the P-51 was landing. Looks like a prop struck
"Pictures have emerged of the damage sustained to a P-52 Mustang plane involved in a mid air collision at the Duxford Battle of Britain Air Show." - so now they are called P-52.
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If you read the rest you will see that it's pretty clear that it's a typo.
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Miss Helen, one of the birds in the accident is an actual WW2 combat survivor and is painted in the markings it wore in WW2. So losing that one would be a real tragedy. Thankfully the pilot got her down.
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These "pop top" breaks seem to net similar results.
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These "pop top" breaks seem to net similar results.
Looked like a poor initial join up.
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I'm thinking the prop ticked the stab.
It looked like the guy in the other Mustang didn't realize they had hit, he continued to follow the B-17. Can't figure why he didn't see the other airplane - it looked like it crossed his nose but from that angle and distance who knows.
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Here's what it looks like to me. My *guess* here (I wouldn't call it an analysis without a LOT more info) is based on having taught basic and advanced formation for over 8 years in T-37 and T-6 aircraft and having seen almost that exact same situation happen hundreds of times with students.
It looks like the blue tail one (wingman) was inside the turn and overshot the red one, which appeared to be the lead aircraft setting up for a rejoin on the bomber. The blue one increased its bank as it overshot ahead of the lead, probably going blind as the lead acft went under his left wing. Very common problem with low wing aircraft in formation when they get too far forward and above the correct position. Due to the smaller turn radius being inside the turn, the overshoot situation got worse with the blue acft passing the red one on the inside of the turn while the wingman was blind. The pilot didn't do an unloaded low-overshoot (standard USAF procedure when overshooting inside a turn) or break out (standard procedure when going blind, aggressively pulling away from the last known position of the other aircraft), instead relaxed his pull probably as he was looking for the lead, and sagged into and in front of the red one. Looked like the prop of the red one clipped the tail of the blue one as it passed in front from inside the turn to outside the turn. You can see him immediately unload the G's and drop very low after the collision, possibly due to a dramatic change in pitch trim when the tail got chopped up. Damn lucky, you usually don't survive loss of the tail at low altitude since the plane generally pitches violently down when the tail comes off making bailout virtually impossible.
Normal turning rejoins like that usually have the wingman stacked slightly lower than lead, below lead's plane of motion. That way an overshoot is fixed by the wingman slightly relaxing back stick pressure and sliding below/behind the lead to the outside of the turn where he then flies a longer radius turn which solves the overshoot problem while keeping lead in sight. Pulling harder to the inside just makes it worse and leads quickly to going blind and having no options at all. If lead is diving or they're close to the ground though, its difficult and/or uncomfortable for the wingman to stay in that low position inside the turn. For that reason, low altitude turns are usually made away from the wingman whenever possible, not towards him, and the wingman is cleared to float to the left or right wing as necessary to remain aft of the lead.
My guess is the red tail pilot didn't see it coming and was fixated on his own rejoin. Keeping #2 in sight during multi-ship dissimilar formation maneuvering is difficult but very important, because your wingman might get jammed up inside a turn and have nowhere to go. In this case, the low altitude would make it very hard for the wingman to do a low overshoot and there may have been other reasons to not drop the left wing (instead of raising it) to keep lead in sight, or do some other vertical reposition. Pulling up and TOWARD the lead aircraft would help control the overshoot and minimize the time spent blind, while getting wingman up and out of the leader's plane of motion, and that's the last-ditch maneuver we would teach if the wingman gets jammed up fwd and high inside a turn. Pulling harder inside the turn just spits the wingman farther out in front, and at low speed the wingman may not be able to sustain a tighter turn than the lead so he'll eventually end up in a collision position again without any hope of regaining sight first because the other aircraft is below his belly outside of his turn.
If the flight lead expected his wingman to be outside the turn and not inside, he wouldn't have even been looking for him since you can't see someone below your belly outside the turn anyhow. That's something we can't know without a LOT more info on how the maneuver was briefed and executed.
Basically from the video, it looked like something I taught routinely and saw over and over (an over-shoot inside the turn followed by increasing the bank angle instead of doing an overshoot procedure or breaking out of formation), and I had to beat out of each and every student because the instinctive reaction is to do exactly what that guy did in the video, with predictable results.
I want to stress that the pilots may have had specific "be no" obligations that prevented a normal overshoot or breakout, or other factors that made a standard overshoot or breakout impossible. "Be no higher than the bomber". "Be no farther outside the turn than the lead or bomber". For example, he may have had a briefed contract to be inside the bomber's turn 100% of the time due to other aircraft outside the turn, the ground was close below him so a low overshoot may have been impossible, and again a contract obligation may have prevented him from climbing for a high breakout or high overshoot. So he may have simply had nowhere to go, which puts the burden back on the flight lead for inflight and preflight planning of a maneuver that hung his wingman out to dry. Also, while the flight lead shouldn't have to stare at his wingman to make sure he doesn't ram him, keeping #2 in sight is still a flight lead responsibility. Remember, this is my *guess* at what happened because I don't have all the info.
We had a somewhat similar midair at Sheppard AFB over a decade ago, where the wingman went blind and didn't break out right, the flight lead didn't see where he went, and they ended up in the same piece of sky. One plane landed all mashed up, the other crew had to bail out when their wing came off. Luckily they were at high altitude and had time to eject.
I've had a student put me in a similar situation as those mustangs, and I had tight altitude constraints too. I couldn't go up high due to other traffic and the flight lead was diving so I couldn't get below him. I ended up having to bank TOWARD the flight lead then push negative G's to bunt away while keeping him in sight. Uncomfortable to say the least, and that was my last pre-planned "way out" so if it hadn't of worked, we probably would have either collided or I'd have been a hazard to another plane or formation. I always tried to have 1 way out when I was flying, 2 ways out when a student was flying, and 3 ways out when I was teaching another IP. When training other IPs, I had to make a simulated student error (like pulling inside a turn during a rejoin), then if the instructor trainee made an improper correction, I had to have that second and third way out pre-planned just in case the new IP made the worst possible error trying to fix my initial simulated student error. Fun but challenging.
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Good analysis and ideas Eagl. This incident makes one wonder what kind of formal formation training is required for these guys, if any. As Eagl describes from his trainer experiences, this appears to be a beginner type mistake. Very fortunate to have recovered the Mustang safely. That stab damage must have produced a lot of airframe vibration. Has anyone seen pictures of the other Mustang’s prop?
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Excellent analysis, eagl. Thanks. :salute
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Very similar collision took out Big Beautiful Doll.
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Eagl, out of curiosity, do you teach the step down turning rejoin all the way through advanced to the fleet? Or is that just a T-6 thing?
I know in T-6s they taught us the step down on the inside (WAY back when, lol), but once in intermediate and advanced, -2, -3, -4 and so on are all co-altitude with lead during the whole joinup (Until the crossunder at the end to wind up outside the turn).
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From a combat standpoint, what benefit does flying in tight formation have? A single missile can damage multiple planes, as can a single AAA shell. The risk of collision is higher. Radar has the resolution to identify individual aircraft now, unlike the early 1960s.
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From a combat standpoint, what benefit does flying in tight formation have? A single missile can damage multiple planes, as can a single AAA shell. The risk of collision is higher. Radar has the resolution to identify individual aircraft now, unlike the early 1960s.
Formation flying in IMC requires it, among other things.
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From a combat standpoint, what benefit does flying in tight formation have? A single missile can damage multiple planes, as can a single AAA shell. The risk of collision is higher. Radar has the resolution to identify individual aircraft now, unlike the early 1960s.
Tight forms aren't a combat thing. They're an IMC/Admin/Training thing.
Tac Form is 1.0 to 1.5 miles apart.
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what benefit does flying in tight formation have?
Because above all else you have to look good on initial!!! Sheesh.
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Eagl, out of curiosity, do you teach the step down turning rejoin all the way through advanced to the fleet? Or is that just a T-6 thing?
I know in T-6s they taught us the step down on the inside (WAY back when, lol), but once in intermediate and advanced, -2, -3, -4 and so on are all co-altitude with lead during the whole joinup (Until the crossunder at the end to wind up outside the turn).
Even operationally it's stepped down a bit, but not very far. The T-6 and T-37 rejoin lines were a bit farther aft, a bit lower aspect and a tiny bit of a tail chase to slow things down, but operationally you still set up on the line just a tiny bit below lead's plane of motion, and drive it in. Ideally you can drive straight in with zero change in the sight picture until you just park it in 2 ship-width's route, pause half a potato, and drive it in to fingertip. It helps if you're sitting far ahead of the wing like in an advanced trainer or fighter, and that's one reason why the primary trainer rejoin line is slightly lower and farther aft.
If you think about it, in a turn, the route position is still along the wingline and the lead is banked towards you, so 50 ft off a banked-down wingtip is going to be just a bit below the lead. You don't drive up the wingtip line of course, the rejoin is done with lead just a touch above the horizon so any overshoot is just relaxing the pull and rolling out of the turn a bit like a crossunder without having to bunt down to get underneath lead. The trick is usually recognizing it early enough to maintain nose-tail separation so you pass behind lead and not directly below or in front. Maintaining the contract is much more important when it's more than a 2-ship of course.
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Really interesting read here. Have zero training or even a frame of reference regarding formation flying and how it's done, but I've always wondered how separation is maintained through various maneuvers, even simple turns.
I saw this a few years back, an RV8 celebration thing, heh, maybe HT was even in this pic for all I know. Anyhow, first instinct - I thought that the least skilled pilot in this formation was pretty much the common denominator for every soul on board these planes. How common is formation training for civilian pilots anyhow? From what Eagl just wrote I'm assuming that more than a 2 ship, the degree of difficulty increases. So what's a 30 ship like?
(http://www.barnstormers.com/eFLYER/2016/442-eFLYER-FA01-20.jpg)
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Anything more than 4-ship can be difficult enough that the USAF requires extremely high approval authority for more than 4. 4-star approval if I recall correctly.
I don't know if the Navy still does their carrier air wing arrival show when the get back from cruise, but their attitude about that has always been a bit different than the USAF.
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From a combat standpoint, what benefit does flying in tight formation have? A single missile can damage multiple planes, as can a single AAA shell. The risk of collision is higher. Radar has the resolution to identify individual aircraft now, unlike the early 1960s.
From a combat standpoint, tactical formation is flown to/from a combat mission area. If there is weather requiring an instrument approach, the fingertip formation is flown to expeditiously recover multiple aircraft.
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How common is formation training for civilian pilots anyhow? From what Eagl just wrote I'm assuming that more than a 2 ship, the degree of difficulty increases. So what's a 30 ship like?
My formation training was done the same as my jump plane training. On the second flight hauling skydivers I was chase in a 2-ship....which was my first time flying formation (non flight sim). :) Never bent anything or hurt anyone.....not the best way to learn.
There is a program for civilians, IIRC it has the acronym FAST, that I think is required for most airshow formations.
No restrictions on Joe Bob and Billy Lee jumping in their flivvers and formating to their hearts content as long as the flight is briefed before hand.