Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Vraciu on November 24, 2017, 12:31:20 PM
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My eyes have gone crossed so I am going to post this and see what you guys notice that I've missed.
This skin was originally created by Mus51. :salute While working it over I was really impressed with some of the techniques used to draw it. Whether or not I can translate these ideas into my own work remains to be seen but I have learned a thing or two regardless. I also redrew numerous items with a more detailed eye than I had before thanks to what I saw on this skin.
In any event, Mus51's influence is visible here. This was by design. A lot of what he drew cannot be improved upon so I kept it. I look at this as more of my vision of what he would have done using today's engine. Let's call it the 2017 Dodge Challenger compared to the 1970. The inspiration is definitely there. To convert this skin fully to my style for the P-51D would be a downgrade. He simply did things on a much higher level than I can in many ways. Still, I've gone over just about every pixel, cleaning up, adjusting, moving, creating layers, etc. Wow.
The NO-STEP red border on the flap has two versions. I am still debating which to keep, hence they are both shown. I may also go back and tweak the upper wing where the stripe was removed so it shows a slightly different metal effect.
As for Capt. Bertciel... He had an interesting career.
http://www.station131.co.uk/55th/Pilots/343rd%20Pilots/Birtciel%20Frank%20E%20Capt.htm
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/birtciel.html
Sorties: 121
Aerial Victories: One shared (Me-262), One Damaged (Me-262)
Aircraft Destroyed on Ground: 5 Destroyed, 1 Damaged
He met his future wife on leave. When he returned to the theater he named his Mustang(s) after her (ultimately flying two of them). They had three children.
He fought in Korea and retired in 1969 with the rank of Lt. Colonel.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=28835)
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:aok
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It looks good but I think it needs more contrast in finish between the olive drab and bare metal areas. Have you done the effect maps yet, its hard to tell from the lighting angle?
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It looks good but I think it needs more contrast in finish between the olive drab and bare metal areas. Have you done the effect maps yet, its hard to tell from the lighting angle?
I have but they probably need tweaking. I've tried two or three different ways and this is the least satisfying of them. I don't know if it is the Power Map or the Spec that is the main issue.
Would you go flatter on the OD or shinier on the NMF? The yellow needs to be flatter for sure.
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To my eyes the yellow looks a little too saturated on the diffuse texture and the OD a bit light and washed out. I'd have thought you could simply make all the painted areas the same shade of grey on the effects maps, rather than different for just the yellow or OD.
It is hard to tell about the lighting effects because the lighting angle in the screenshot doesn't show much in the way of specular reflections. What I noticed before was that the painted spinner looks to have a fairly sharp specular reflection for a painted surface so my best guess is to make the painted areas of the skin darker on the power map to diffuse the reflections. But I'd really need to see a shot with the specular reflection running across a larger area of paint/NMF to get a better idea, maybe from side-on rather than three quarter. What base grey levels are you using for paint and NMF on the three effect maps?
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To my eyes the yellow looks a little too saturated on the diffuse texture and the OD a bit light and washed out. I'd have thought you could simply make all the painted areas the same shade of grey on the effects maps, rather than different for just the yellow or OD.
It is hard to tell about the lighting effects because the lighting angle in the screenshot doesn't show much in the way of specular reflections. What I noticed before was that the painted spinner looks to have a fairly sharp specular reflection for a painted surface so my best guess is to make the painted areas of the skin darker on the power map to diffuse the reflections. But I'd really need to see a shot with the specular reflection running across a larger area of paint/NMF to get a better idea, maybe from side-on rather than three quarter. What base grey levels are you using for paint and NMF on the three effect maps?
I will get back to you on those grays.
I need to break out the yellow stripe as it's own layer. As of now it is still merged wth the OD.
The OD is a problem for me as I don't know what color it should be. Is it the same as the horse blanket or different? If it is different then the blanket needs to be darker for sure.
Here are some samples...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=28854)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=28846)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=28850)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=28856)
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The OD paint on the real plane would be similar to the OD on Horses Itch when newly painted, but weathering would affect them to varying degrees and the color could look very different in the end. OD green is notorious for great changes based on age and exposure.
Your best bet would be to darken the OD a little on Miss Velma to increase the contrast.
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The OD paint on the real plane would be similar to the OD on Horses Itch when newly painted, but weathering would affect them to varying degrees and the color could look very different in the end. OD green is notorious for great changes based on age and exposure.
Your best bet would be to darken the OD a little on Miss Velma to increase the contrast.
Checkers, too? Are we assuming they're essentially the same color?
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All the OD should be the same on Miss Velma.
Also I think the stripe between the OD and bare metal is red, not yellow.
Note that the stripe matched neither the dark shade of the OD or the light checkers, which are yellow.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=28846)
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That brings up another issue. The pilot insisted the stripe was yellow. Let me dig up that photo.
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http://www.crazyhorseap.be/Mustangs/Mustangs/N251RJ%20Miss%20Velma/N251RJ.htm
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=28858)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=28860)
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That brings up another issue. The pilot insisted the stripe was yellow. Let me dgg up photo.
http://www.crazyhorseap.be/Mustangs/Mustangs/N251RJ%20Miss%20Velma/N251RJ.htm
Sorry, but the photo evidence does not support this. The page you provided indicates that all these colors were painted at the same time. The stripe does not match either the yellow or the green. Therefore, the stripe must be red. Bertciel is probably incorrectly remembering an ancillary detail.
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Sorry, but the photo evidence does not support this. The page you provided indicates that all these colors were painted at the same time. The stripe does not match either the yellow or the green. Therefore, the stripe must be red. Bertciel is probably incorrectly remembering an ancillary detail.
Cross post. See above. Red and yellow were around at the same time. Red stripes were changed to yellow as well.
Lyric do you have any pics of this plane that might support a yellow stripe?
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The two RH photos of G-CY appear to show a dark stripe on one and a light one on the other. So maybe they changed the colour on Miss Velma for some reason, perhaps different flights had different colour stripes as an ID aid?
The colour I use for olive drab is RGB 83/79/61.
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Cross post. See above. Red and yellow were around at the same time. Red stripes were changed to yellow as well.
Lyric do you have any pics of this plane that might support a yellow stripe?
You have one photo of the plane you are skinning. In that photo, the stripe is darker than yellow and lighter than camouflage green. It is closest to the shade of the horse, which is red. The stripe is red. To me, there is no debate here.
Yes, other planes in the squadron had yellow stripes. Miss Velma may have had yellow at another time, but you are making a guess based on nothing more than the distant memory of the pilot.
If you are aiming to have the most accurate skin possible, then paint it like it appears in the photo - Red stripe and over-painted D-Day markings.
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Didn't even notice the invasion stripes on the fuselage being painted over. Odd that the tail still has them.
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Cross post. See above. Red and yellow were around at the same time. Red stripes were changed to yellow as well.
Lyric do you have any pics of this plane that might support a yellow stripe?
This was on EBAY that I found.
Looks red to me on this image.
(https://i.imgur.com/uxUtmka.jpg)
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This was on EBAY that I found.
Looks red to me on this image.
(https://i.imgur.com/uxUtmka.jpg)
That one looks pre-Invasion Stripe, too.
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The two RH photos of G-CY appear to show a dark stripe on one and a light one on the other. So maybe they changed the colour on Miss Velma for some reason, perhaps different flights had different colour stripes as an ID aid?
The colour I use for olive drab is RGB 83/79/61.
This is my thinking. There are many images of planes with red stripes repainted yellow. But I guess no photo of CY-D with yellow exists...
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How's the OD here? Better?
Devil, look at the vert fin and you can see that shading I was talking about. Good or bad?
Greebo, still owe you the spec map shots but I haven't gotten around to it. I want to try one more iteration first.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=28925)
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The OD looks better. There seems to be a highlight on the leading edge of the stab. It looks strange near the fillet.
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The OD looks better. There seems to be a highlight on the leading edge of the stab. It looks strange near the fillet.
I can quash that no problem. Do I want the entire stab the same color?
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what exactly are you trying to achieve?
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what exactly are you trying to achieve?
I'm looking at what Mus did on the tail. The shading seems to mask some of the angles of the 3D shape. Or perhaps not. I may just be overthinking it. Compare:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=28945)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=28947)
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hard to tell on Miss Velma what's baked-in or a result of a glossier finish.
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No lighting.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=28949)
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looks like you added shade to the back of the stab.
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looks like you added shade to the back of the stab.
That's what Mus did. Is it worth imitating for depth or should I wipe it out?
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The problem is, when you add shade to the rear of a wing/stab it gives the appearance of a taper. The sides of the vertical stab on the P-51 are flat so it looks very fake the way you have it. If anything, adding a highlight to the leading edge and fillet can give the illusion of a rounded edge.
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The problem is, when you add shade to the rear of a wing/stab it gives the appearance of a taper. The sides of the vertical stab on the P-51 are flat so it looks very fake the way you have it. If anything, adding a highlight to the leading edge and fillet can give the illusion of a rounded edge.
Well, like I said, Mus did it this way and it made me think there's something to the theory. It provides some depth that a uniform color pattern does not.
Let me wipe it out and then re-engineer.
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Well, like I said, Mus did it this way and it made me think there's something to the theory. It provides some depth that a uniform color pattern does not.
Let me wipe it out and then re-engineer.
Using a shadow like he did is a shortcut. I do the same thing on fabric surfaces as the shadow tricks the eye into seeing a highlight opposite of it. The problem in this case is that the stab should be on the same plane as the sides of the rear fuselage under the horizontal stabs. Adding a shadow only to the vertical stab creates an incongruity in the appearance of the tail.
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What is up with the 441561 on the aft fuselage near the tail?
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What is up with the 441561 on the aft fuselage near the tail?
It was part of the original skin. I left a placeholder there until I could determine if it was correct to leave it. I'm assuming since you mentioned it that none of the group's Mustangs had this. It doesn't appear in any of the photos I've posted either.
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Here it is in the light.
I tried to post the Spec Files as Greebo requested and it rejected them. I will try again in a second.
I intend to erode the leading edge of the black underwing stripes and change the Horse Blanket/NMF border to red (once I learn how). :banana:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=28958)
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It was part of the original skin. I left a placeholder there until I could determine if it was correct to leave it. I'm assuming since you mentioned it that none of the group's Mustangs had this. It doesn't appear in any of the photos I've posted either.
I was curious enough that I tried finding a photo of it in WWII and the only one I found is too dark in that area. It looks like a place where a civilian registration number would be put on a warbird. The original's serial was 44-14561.
Some of the photos of the warbird version of the aircraft seem to show a number there, probably a civilian registration.
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You did know that the warbird version went down at Duxford in early July...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=28963)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=28965)
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I've hidden it for now.
Thanks for taking a look.
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You did know that the warbird version went down at Duxford in early July...
Yes, sir. JANIE did, too. I seem to skin crunched warbirds these days. :(
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Lou IV is really cursed, a couple different versions of it have crashed.
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That's true. Big Beautiful Doll as well. Ugh.
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I'm not convinced that Miss Velma had a red stripe exclusively, but I'm trying to draw one.
I think I am getting close, but the color isn't sitting right with me.
Suggestions?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=29113)
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I forget the callsign of the player who asked me about it. I think I'm just tired.
Any way... Here is the latest update to Miss Velma. A few more tweaks and I'll be done. I am still not having luck with the red stripe sadly.
In each image the original skin is on top, the bottom is after my changes to it. Again my goal was to preserve the spirit of the original work. I'm sure if Mus51 was still in the skinning game he would do a much better job than I have. In any event, I feel it is true to the original overall.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=29141)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=29139)
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Coming along nicely.
For the red, try the color of your fuel caps. Looks like Insignia Red. Also try it with the "L" on the flaps.
You may want to darken your metal colors. Looks very bright.
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Coming along nicely.
For the red, try the color of your fuel caps. Looks like Insignia Red. Also try it with the "L" on the flaps.
You may want to darken your metal colors. Looks very bright.
Thanks man. I've considered darkening the upper wing but it wants to go too gray. I'm working on DALLAS DOLL right now as well and the shade it has might be more appropriate.
I'll give that red a shot.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=29143)
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Perhaps light that isn't so direct helps compare them.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=390551.0;attach=29151)
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I forget the callsign of the player who asked me about it. I think I'm just tired.
Any way... Here is the latest update to Miss Velma. A few more tweaks and I'll be done. I am still not having luck with the red stripe sadly.
In each image the original skin is on top, the bottom is after my changes to it. Again my goal was to preserve the spirit of the original work. I'm sure if Mus51 was still in the skinning game he would do a much better job than I have. In any event, I feel it is true to the original overall.
I think it was Cooler06 who asked. Apparently he has some involvement in a 55th FG Museum and some other things in Europe. Pretty cool stuff.