Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Widewing on December 20, 2017, 02:59:39 PM
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My wife went with me to pick out my Christmas gift... We brought it home and I then bought and installed the required accessories and boxed it up for Christmas morning....
Her one question was... "What are you going to do with four shotguns like this one?"
Fair question, and I don't have answer that she'd understand... I just like them.
The new one is on the left....
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4540/38688438561_f7e90f6c6e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21WLmUa)
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Others...
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4725/27404384039_43e5c06b00_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HKCCBZ)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4729/38305304745_69a58d81ae_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21mUGyH)
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Hey wide!
Glad to see you around. :aok Merry Xmas to you and yours!
:salute
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Niiiiice! Been eye balling those tactical bang sticks. The prices are at an all time low!
Mama said no more purchases this year! Good think there are only 11 days left in the year! :angel:
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Come to the Great White North, we'll give you something to do with them fine lookin shotguns....
(http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/skokey00.gif)
Seriously though, if you want to play with them safely and legit-like, AND not "kill" anything, then check out Amatuer Trapshooting, it's ALOT of fun!
http://www.shootata.com/ (http://www.shootata.com/)
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Hey wide!
Glad to see you around. :aok Merry Xmas to you and yours!
:salute
The same to you, my old friend! :aok
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Come to the Great White North, we'll give you something to do with them fine lookin shotguns....
(http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/skokey00.gif)
Seriously though, if you want to play with them safely and legit-like, AND not "kill" anything, then check out Amatuer Trapshooting, it's ALOT of fun!
http://www.shootata.com/ (http://www.shootata.com/)
I've done skeet and sporting clays... Great fun.
Combat shotguns are altogether different in application and training.. A different kind of fun. Hell, I've taken 18" barrel guns on the clays course and was pleased to do much better than I expected. 64 of 100 with a short barrel cylinder bore gun. I can usually get 95+ with the old Franchi. My shooting partner did 99 of 100, I think to annoy me.
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I can usually get 95+ with the old Franchi. My shooting partner did 99 of 100, I think to annoy me.
It's always by 1 with trapshooting... Bugger! It really is a great "gentlemans" sport if we can even use that term anymore. Golf with guns as far as I'm concerned... You work like hell to beat everyone, but afterwards you laugh and share a wobbly-pop.
Nice looking units.. (except the neon sites, EWE Gross! :salute)
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What's Christmas, without a little gun porn!
Merry Christmas all.. :cheers:
(https://i.imgur.com/rsjNKtp.jpg?1)
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Come to the Great White North, we'll give you something to do with them fine lookin shotguns....
(http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/skokey00.gif)
Seriously though, if you want to play with them safely and legit-like, AND not "kill" anything, then check out Amatuer Trapshooting, it's ALOT of fun!
http://www.shootata.com/ (http://www.shootata.com/)
I have a really good wrist shot. Seriously.
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If you see this guy coming down the chimney, just hold fire for a few seconds please Widewing. There's still some places West of you after you on the schedule...
Merry Christmas sir :cheers:
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Mine have pistol grips. Other than that they are brothers. :D
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What are your thoughts on the heat shield? I really like the look and I was thinking of adding one to my Mossberg just for the aesthetics. I assume it makes cleaning slightly more involving, but other then looks would there be any additional reason to add one, or not add one? I don't personally see any scenario where I would be shooting so many shells I would actually need it for its intended purpose. But it sure looks cool :D
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Will these guns add to the effects of global warning?
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Kid: “But I listened and am not looking down the barrel!”
WW longtime :salute
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What are your thoughts on the heat shield? I really like the look and I was thinking of adding one to my Mossberg just for the aesthetics. I don't personally see any scenario where I would be shooting so many shells I would actually need it for its intended purpose. But it sure looks cool :D
Do you actually practice using your Shotgun? Some just stow it under their bed in case of emergency, or don't really have a place to practice freely, I understand that.. But if you actually use it, to become proficient, then you will find the heat shield works as intended..
A shotgun practice session for me is at least 100rds of full power ammo.. With buddies, add more. Multiple targets and reloads, fired in multiple shot strings, 100rds will get the barrel hot enough for a shield! I have burned my hand on a shotgun barrel more than once!
With a tube mag pump, and the shoot 4 load 4 drill, loading on the fly takes some practice. Not easy to do smoothly, a hot barrel can make it more entertaining.. :rolleyes:
But, it makes it more challenging and fun that way.. :aok
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Come to the Great White North, we'll give you something to do with them fine lookin shotguns....
(http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/skokey00.gif)
Seriously though, if you want to play with them safely and legit-like, AND not "kill" anything, then check out Amatuer Trapshooting, it's ALOT of fun!
http://www.shootata.com/ (http://www.shootata.com/)
I was very proud of my wrist shot. I could ice the puck off the glass, go high post, and even dented my goalies face mask in warm ups.
:D :salute
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Do you actually practice using your Shotgun? Some just stow it under their bed in case of emergency, or don't really have a place to practice freely, I understand that.. But if you actually use it, to become proficient, then you will find the heat shield works as intended..
A shotgun practice session for me is at least 100rds of full power ammo.. With buddies, add more. Multiple targets and reloads, fired in multiple shot strings, 100rds will get the barrel hot enough for a shield! I have burned my hand on a shotgun barrel more than once!
With a tube mag pump, and the shoot 4 load 4 drill, loading on the fly takes some practice. Not easy to do smoothly, a hot barrel can make it more entertaining.. :rolleyes:
But, it makes it more challenging and fun that way.. :aok
I suppose that I've burned through more than 500 rounds of high brass ammo just this year. Typically 00 buck, slugs, #4 field loads and specialty self defense stuff like Winchester PDX. I've also shot hundreds of low brass as well. In 2010, I took a 2-day combat shotgun course. It was this class that showed me that traditional training courses were not up to the task of training for fighting in one's home. These courses focused on things that really don't matter when it's 3 AM, you're shaking off sleep, in your skivvies, trying to determine what you are dealing with in a darkened house... This class concentrated on basic skills, with debatable techniques. Old school stance, new school, squared-up stance, combat reload methods (most poorly thought out), and zero training on real world, home defense tactics. In short, all this class served to teach me was the general weakness of the prevalent training methods repeated by almost every trainer, everywhere. There are exceptions... I suggest googling Clint Smith and Thunder Ranch. Also, I recommend Paul Harrell's videos on YouTube.
What are the chances of the average person having to deal with a home invasion, burglar or other intruder in their homes? Pretty slim... But, what if it does happen? Are you really prepared?
The range is the proper place to learn how to manipulate the shotgun and pattern it with varying ammunition. One can practice techniques for combat reloads, magazine reloads and the like. However, the range is not you home's hallway. Everything you do at the range should already have been perfected in the home running drills with snap caps, in the dark. At the range, you learn how to shoot accurately with live ammo. In-home training is what will save your life. Train as you plan to fight and should everything go to hell, you'll fight the way you trained.
First, have a home security plan. This includes the most important factor... Keeping bad guys out. Proper locks, motion sensing lights, digital cameras, alarm system, etc. Inside, determine where you should defend if the need arises. Spouses and kids need to understand what to do. Practice drills are very useful. I have a buddy who sometimes sets an alarm clock for a weekend night surprise drill. Know how to clear a house, just in case you must get to a kid during an intruder situation. Have a fall back position with spare ammo stored there.
Proper defense firearms... There are many options. Pistols, rifles and shotguns. Opinions abound. Generally, I view pistols/revolvers as what I would use until I can get to a better weapon. I keep a loaded S&W 586 in the night stand drawer. I keep a loaded 12 gauge pump shotgun in my bedroom closet. We have no children in the house. My grand kids live in a different state. When we have visitors with kids, we lock up the hardware. My combat shotguns are all set-up the same basic way. Sling, side saddle and improved sights. Two have LED lights, although my home can be lit up from a master light panel in the master bedroom (every major room/hallway has an LED high hat in the ceiling wired to that panel, which was installed because my wife is disabled and she can illuminate rooms before she leaves the bedroom. She suffered a trip and fall injury in the dark, so I had the lights installed). I could write an essay on how to "harden" your home to intruders. Obviously, the best home defense is keeping bad guys outside....
I won't shoot in the dark. One shotgun has a reflex optic, and all have fiber optic sights. Any other hardware installed on a shotgun is extra weight and generally of no tactical value. I load Winchester PDX-1 buck over slug ammo in the magazine and side saddle, except that I keep two rifled slugs should a more precise round be needed. There's spare ammo in several out of sight locations. A 9mm carbine is also stored in the closet, with two magazines loaded with 115 grain JHP ammo. Everything else is in one my two gun safes.
The thing about that heat shield... It is helpful on the range. Like you, I've burned my hands on a hot barrel several times (which is why I often wear gloves). In a home defense situation, if I've fired often enough and fast enough to get the barrel hot enough to burn me... I'm probably in a war rather than a home defense fight. ;) Less than five rounds should decide a home defense situation. Although, I'm prepared if that isn't the case.
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If you see this guy coming down the chimney, just hold fire for a few seconds please Widewing. There's still some places West of you after you on the schedule...
Merry Christmas sir :cheers:
The same to you, my friend!
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Kid: “But I listened and am not looking down the barrel!”
WW longtime :salute
Since 2001, and the Ghosts....
Have a Merry Christmas, SNO!
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What are your thoughts on the heat shield? I really like the look and I was thinking of adding one to my Mossberg just for the aesthetics. I assume it makes cleaning slightly more involving, but other then looks would there be any additional reason to add one, or not add one? I don't personally see any scenario where I would be shooting so many shells I would actually need it for its intended purpose. But it sure looks cool :D
The heat shield is useful at the range... No burned fingers. It is attached to the barrel and comes off with it. So, it doesn't make disassembly for cleaning an issue. It takes just a few minutes to remove it from the barrel, but that should not be needed for most cleaning, unless you get the exterior dirty or muddy. On this particular Mossberg, it's factory installed.
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It's always by 1 with trapshooting... Bugger! It really is a great "gentlemans" sport if we can even use that term anymore. Golf with guns as far as I'm concerned... You work like hell to beat everyone, but afterwards you laugh and share a wobbly-pop.
Nice looking units.. (except the neon sites, EWE Gross! :salute)
I agree that the fiber optic sights are not attractive. However, they are excellent at collecting ambient light in low light conditions. Thus, they are quick and easy to see. These are snap-on sights by TruGlo. Standard on Winchester SXP home security shotguns. They fit very tight and key off the front bead. I find that they don't move under recoil, but can be removed without excessive effort. Strictly for home defense shotguns where lighting may be marginal. The other option is powered optic. I have both on my 870 clone, but the Picatinny rail is the sight-thru type, allowing the use of the original sights should the optic fail.
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Hey, Widewing is still around! Excellent! :aok
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<S> to fellow hockey players on the board! :aok
(I did not have a good wrist shot.)
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Will these guns add to the effects of global warning?
Zack, these guns actually help to combat the effects of global warming (although I think the correct term you should use is "climate change"). The founders foresaw this.
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Widewing, all true and sage advice..
I live in a Rural area these days, with the wilderness at my back.. My days of city living ended almost 30yrs ago.. Badguys would have to come a long way, and most likely would never even know we are here.. The chances of home invasion by "criminals" is virtually non existent.. But our home is very secure, "against all enemies, foreign and domestic", because one of my retirement hobbies has been to make it that way, lol.. Thank God the worst danger seems to have passed for now.. But other types of predatory invasions are very common here, the wildlife kind..
I have had a few different defensive shotguns over my years..
My oldest is an heirloom from my Pop.. A bottom eject Ithaca steel framed riot gun, engraved Illinois State Police, service worn with a beautiful patina.. Slickest action I ever felt in my life.. I don't shoot it any more, sits in the back of the gun safe, in a silicone sleeve..
First one I ever bought for myself was an R870, standard Remington police style shotgun from the 70s but with rifle sight barrel and mag extension.. Gave that one to my oldest son.. Then a Winchester Defender with wood furniture, had a pretty fast action for a newer shotgun, I added a Choate top folder.. Gave that one to my youngest son..
Now I have a Mossberg M500A modded with the Mesa Tactical Hi/tube, and Warhammer rail.. It's a full boogie combat shotgun, lol.. It offers the same Grip/Stock/Sights/Cheekweld relationship, and straight line recoil geometry as an AR15.. Has tritium dual aperture AR type sights for use at night, zeroed at 100yds w slug.. Naturally a weapon light is installed.. Recently started trying out a green laser with NV Goggles.. Laser centered in the buckshot pattern at 30 yds.. Works good in practice, I patrol my property with it at night, haven't had to use it yet tho.. Better for me, less mess to clean up!
(https://i.imgur.com/3P70MMq.jpg?1)
I have also recently purchased a VEPR12, which is still going thru the customization process.. It's AWESOME! :aok
When finished and integrated, it will be my primary Shotgun, replacing the modded M500A..
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When you get to the point that you have too many weapons to operate effectively, at one time, form a squad and hunker down. (Just better all get along.) ;)
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Widewing, all true and sage advice..
I live in a Rural area these days, with the wilderness at my back.. My days of city living ended almost 30yrs ago.. Badguys would have to come a long way, and most likely would never even know we are here.. The chances of home invasion by "criminals" is virtually non existent.. But our home is very secure, "against all enemies, foreign and domestic", because one of my retirement hobbies has been to make it that way, lol.. Thank God the worst danger seems to have passed for now.. But other types of predatory invasions are very common here, the wildlife kind..
I have had a few different defensive shotguns over my years..
My oldest is an heirloom from my Pop.. A bottom eject Ithaca steel framed riot gun, engraved Illinois State Police, service worn with a beautiful patina.. Slickest action I ever felt in my life.. I don't shoot it any more, sits in the back of the gun safe, in a silicone sleeve..
First one I ever bought for myself was an R870, standard Remington police style shotgun from the 70s but with rifle sight barrel and mag extension.. Gave that one to my oldest son.. Then a Winchester Defender with wood furniture, had a pretty fast action for a newer shotgun, I added a Choate top folder.. Gave that one to my youngest son..
Now I have a Mossberg M500A modded with the Mesa Tactical Hi/tube, and Warhammer rail.. It's a full boogie combat shotgun, lol.. It offers the same Grip/Stock/Sights/Cheekweld relationship, and straight line recoil geometry as an AR15.. Has tritium dual aperture AR type sights for use at night, zeroed at 100yds w slug.. Naturally a weapon light is installed.. Recently started trying out a green laser with NV Goggles.. Laser centered in the buckshot pattern at 30 yds.. Works good in practice, I patrol my property with it at night, haven't had to use it yet tho.. Better for me, less mess to clean up!
(https://i.imgur.com/3P70MMq.jpg?1)
I have also recently purchased a VEPR12, which is still going thru the customization process.. It's AWESOME! :aok
When finished and integrated, it will be my primary Shotgun, replacing the modded M500A..
That shotgun from your dad sounds like an Ithaca 37. Still very popular. I like the Vepr 12. Shot one one time at the range. Unlike the Saiga 12, it shoots low brass perfectly well. Heck, it shoots everything just fine. Lot's of cool features, like the revised safety, bolt hold-open and the bolt release. I like the straight-in mag well... Great shotgun. I like that Mossberg too... I will likely switch to a Magpul furniture for my 20" Mossberg Tactical.
I've also tried the DP-12, dual barrel, pump bullpup. I found it too damn heavy and the action rough. It doesn't lend itself to swift reloading either. Not like a conventional pump or semi-auto, where you can quick load the chamber when dry. There's also a quirk with the safety that put me off. When both barrels are chambered, you pull the trigger once for the right barrel and a second time for the left barrel. Then, you cycle in two more. The quirk is that if you fire only one barrel, you can't set to safety to safe. The safety only works when both chambers are loaded. This means a hot gun that can only be set on safe by cycling the action, ejecting the unfired round and loading two more. Inasmuch as most of the guys who buy this shotgun do so for its cool factor, this is a potential disaster for inexperienced shooters. That thing weighs nearly 12 lb fully loaded. It does offer less felt recoil. But, a quality recoil pad and proper technique will help manage recoil just fine with any shotgun.
I live in the suburbs, about 60 miles east of NYC on the north shore of Long Island. We live in what one might describe as an upper middle class neighborhood. Burglaries are commonplace around here. Lots of stuff to steal in these homes. When I was a kid, this area was still rural in nature, being mostly farmland and mansions belonging to the NYC elite. Over the past 62 years since my family moved out to "the sticks", there's been a huge building surge as city dwellers moved out for the better lifestyle. So, with break-ins and occasional genuine home invasions (3 or more perps), the need to have a secure home and proper self defense weapons became essential. When I retire (which I could do now, if I didn't enjoy what I do), we will relocate to a more rural area. As of right now, three places are in the mix. New Hampshire, South Carolina or Texas (where my wife has family). All three are a lot "gun friendlier" than New York.
I have a small collection of firearms, very diverse. These include Mil-Surp rifles, various shotguns, 9mm carbine, Mini-14 580 series, several .22 rimfire rifles, AK, SKS and a bunch of muzzle loading rifles and revolvers. I own two handguns... With New York's "assault weapons" ban, I refused to register mine. The AK was given to my brother, a county deputy sheriff. He's allowed to own so-called "assault rifles". Oddly, the Mini-14 is not classified as such... It lacks the non-firing features. It is, however, the newer revision of the Mini-14 with heavy barrel. It shoots 1.5 to 2 MOA with typical 5.56 ball ammo, and right around 1 MOA with IAI 55 grain ammo. So some reason, it likes that Israeli ammo. It doesn't matter much, because I generally run it with a 3 MOA red dot, or just the iron aperture sights. I sold my old Colt HBAR years ago, and my CETME 58 about four years back.
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My rifle and shotgun skills never seem to diminish with time off but handgun requires constant practice.
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Yep, Ithaca 37, couldn't remember the model number, its an oldie.. Interesting thing about it, if you chamber a round, and then fire it one handed, it will blow the chamber open, and eject the hull by itself.. And, if you hold down the trigger, and jack the pump, it will drop the hammer automatically every time the chamber closes.. Fastest pump action I have ever seen!
Something you have to watch on the VEPR12, is stowing it in the ready condition.. If you load a mag, and insert it into the weapon while the action is closed, and leave it that way? It will deform the top shell, by pressing the plastic hull against the bottom of the bolt carrier.. Causing it to jam immediately when it feeds the deformed shell.. So if ya wanna keep it loaded and ready for immediate use, you have to keep the bolt locked back, to avoid deforming the top shell.. For me, no sweat, but for others , that might be an issue!
I handled a DP12 at my FFL dealer.. Right off the bat, it seemed too gimmicky for me, very odd and clunky! Enough to make me write it off immediately.. Same with that UTAS12, such an oddball weapon, and testing shows it's a pile of junk..
But somebody is buying them, they sell as soon as they arrive at the dealer..
There are a lot of new Shotgun designs appearing on the market now.. Hoping to take a slice of the combat shotgun market now that MOLOT has been under the ban hammer.. Chetah12, EM12B, AR12, AWS Trench12 pistol, XTR12, SKO12, some of them are pretty interesting, and the prices are amazing right now, some under $600.. If you don't mind being part of the testing program for new weapon designs.. Personally I like my guns to have somewhat of a proven track record before I jump in.. As far a bullpup shotgun, one of my shooting buddies has a KSG.. I'm not a big Keltech fan, but I would buy the KSG, I've tried it, it works great!
Just the other day, there was an article on the Daily Caller, detailing all the elements of the NY "Safe Act".. Holy Smokes! :confused: There is no way I could deal with that! No wonder there is an exodus out of NY State.. Yes, it seems that the good ole SKS and Mini, are taking over in the places where you can no longer own a modern battle worthy rifle! Both will get the job done in a pinch! I have had an SKS, since the late 80's, Norinco NEW manufacture, not a beat up old issue rifle, bought it for $99 back then, wish I had bought more! I added the Techsight adjustable rear aperture, and it shoots GREAT.. One of the greatest gun values EVER!
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Can testify the NYS sucks! Just bought my first AR. Had to pin the stock, replace pistol grip with a spur, swap the included 30 rd mag for a 10 rounder, plus no flash suppressor. The spur grip is so bad I’m going to put a Thordsen stock on it just so it’s usable and safer.
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Yep, the alterations to "Assault Rifles" to make them "legal", is not worth it, may even make them dangerous.. Better off with a Mini14 or an SKS, in their original unmodded forms they are very trim/handy rifles, and still fully effective..
The article at the DC, titled "Fake news on gun confiscation" was talking about "NY Safe Act, handgun owner re/certification" deadline January 31st/18, and the consequences of failure, for any reason.. State Police :police: are specifically directed, to go and get that persons guns! Not just handguns, ALL their guns! I have heard of this happening in NY, people SWAT raided and guns taken! Unreal! :O
The boil down, into it's real world effects and consequences, was shocking!
I can't even imagine living with that hanging over my head! :uhoh
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The spur makes it damn difficult to do any kind of one handed operations. Just can’t get a firm grip. Mag changes, stoppage clearances, working the charging handle much harder. That’s the only reason I’m going to put a Thordsen on it. At least with that, I should be able to effectively do one handed operations.
As far as the CCW permit recertification, I’ve only had my permit for 2 years so I’ve got 3 more to go before I have to deal with that mess.
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Yep, the alterations to "Assault Rifles" to make them "legal", is not worth it, may even make them dangerous.. Better off with a Mini14 or an SKS, in their original unmodded forms they are very trim/handy rifles, and still fully effective..
The article at the DC, titled "Fake news on gun confiscation" was talking about "NY Safe Act, handgun owner re/certification" deadline January 31st/18, and the consequences of failure, for any reason.. State Police :police: are specifically directed, to go and get that persons guns! Not just handguns, ALL their guns! I have heard of this happening in NY, people SWAT raided and guns taken! Unreal! :O
The boil down, into it's real world effects and consequences, was shocking!
I can't even imagine living with that hanging over my head! :uhoh
State Police are enforcing the Safe Act, as well as some of the larger municipality police departments. However, the NYS Sheriff's Association long since announced that they will not enforce it, deeming it unconstitutional. Less than 35% of the estimated number of "assault weapons" in the state were registered. Any range I go to has dozens of shooters with high capacity magazines and plenty of unregistered rifles. No one bothers them... I often shoot with cops and they mind their own business at the range.
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In my area, there is a "Sportsman's Association", that has an indoor range for Pistol/.22 Rifle, and a 200yd outdoor rifle range, members only.. I have been living here for almost 30yrs, but I am still not a member of their "Association".. After going to an "orientation meeting", required before membership, witnessing the arrogant and overbearing manner, and getting up and leaving half way through, I decided not to join.. That was 20+yrs ago, and they still resent me for it, lol..
I have a shooting range at home, but I only use that rarely, it upsets my animals.. There are several suitable shooting places within a few miles of home, with up to 1000yds of room.. I keep a portable rifle range in the back of my SUV, so I don't need their private "Association" BS! 8x 10" steel gongs with folding stands, paper grid targets for sight in, round bullseye and anatomical score targets, a super rigid folding 3x8ft shooting table, empty sandbags, spotting scope, laser rangefinder, gun cleaning stuff.. It all lays flat and compact in the rear cargo area.. I just toss the gun cases and ammo bag in the back seat, and go..
The shooting table is really cool, not some flimsy polymer junk.. It is actually a professional portable massage table.. I paid $40 for it at a garage sale, like brand new.. It is 3'x8', hardwood, adjustable height, and level.. Folds in 1/2 like a giant suitcase with the legs inside, even has padded carry handles.. Open, it has a cable system triangulating the top and legs, so it can hold up to 500lb whales.. Originally, it had a 8" thick foam pad, and vinyl cover, but I stripped that off and replaced it with a 1/2 ACX plywood top.. It is very rigid,and will seat 2 shooters side by side.. One of my greatest garage sale scores ever!