Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => All things VR => Topic started by: terrydew on January 08, 2018, 12:55:30 PM
-
FYI Rumor has it that a new Vive “Pro” will be announced today with a higher resolution.
-
I'm just looking into VR now, was told to go for the VIVE over Occulus. Now hearing the above, should I wait?
Any VR guy's thoughts on this? Experiences?
-
I think I would wait. With improved resolution and tracking, the Vive might retake the top spot. Of course there might be a price difference. Release dates and price were not released today. Check out the Road to VR website. I bet they will have some hands on impressions soon.
-
I'm just looking into VR now, was told to go for the VIVE over Occulus. Now hearing the above, should I wait?
Any VR guy's thoughts on this? Experiences?
What were the reasons for preferring the Vive over the Rift?
-
What were the reasons for preferring the Vive over the Rift?
Yeah me too. From what I know, the Oculus is the best supported VR headset out there right now. If someone were to ask me today, I'd say get a Rift - for ~$350-400 you can't go wrong.
Some people spend that money on Starbucks in a month.
-
I had 2 sets of both, the Rift and the Vive. The only thing the Vive did better was room scale gaming, and that's only because the Rift wasn't capable of doing it as well initially. Once the extra sensors and that capability came around, the Vive IMO lost the only advantage it had. Ask any sim developer, they'll all say that the Rift is far easier to work with, better drivers, etc. Every sim/cockpit/driving game out there I've tried, the Rift was and is a far superior experience. So much so I got rid of both Vives, as I only played one game with them due to it not being available on the Rift, and once the new sensors and support came out for that from Oculus, it was adios Vives.
HTC is a horrible company to deal with. I could post a long story about how incompetent their service department is, starting with the whole "no can English" part - they ended up screwing up an RMA so badly that I got one of my 2 Vives for free, even after telling the repeatedly about their mistakes. It got so ridiculous, and if you check Reddit, I was far from the only one.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/8/16863136/new-htc-vive-pro-vr-headset-announced-ces-2018
New Vive - 78% greater resolution 2160x1200 to 2880x1600, Rift like headphones, 2 front cameras, 2 microphones. Time will tell. I hope Rift 2.0 or whatever comes out soon, as I don't think I'll by trying...more like risking an HTC purchase ever again, but I like the greater res idea, a lot.
-
The Rift's edge is the software. It is still far superior to the Vive.
-
The Rift's edge is the software. It is still far superior to the Vive.
Skuzzy are there things you can’t do with the Vive that you can with the rift or you can do the same things with both but the Rift is easier to implement?
-
A hands on review.
https://www.roadtovr.com/ces-2018-vive-pro-hands-on-much-more-than-an-improved-screen/2/
-
What were the reasons for preferring the Vive over the Rift?
Just some suggestions from local games shops; biggest point was that the VIVE is more value with the controllers and a better/more comfortable headset.
Still in early stages, but starting to drool at some of the videos getting put out now...
-
I had 2 sets of both, the Rift and the Vive. The only thing the Vive did better was room scale gaming, and that's only because the Rift wasn't capable of doing it as well initially. Once the extra sensors and that capability came around, the Vive IMO lost the only advantage it had. Ask any sim developer, they'll all say that the Rift is far easier to work with, better drivers, etc. Every sim/cockpit/driving game out there I've tried, the Rift was and is a far superior experience. So much so I got rid of both Vives, as I only played one game with them due to it not being available on the Rift, and once the new sensors and support came out for that from Oculus, it was adios Vives.
HTC is a horrible company to deal with. I could post a long story about how incompetent their service department is, starting with the whole "no can English" part - they ended up screwing up an RMA so badly that I got one of my 2 Vives for free, even after telling the repeatedly about their mistakes. It got so ridiculous, and if you check Reddit, I was far from the only one.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/8/16863136/new-htc-vive-pro-vr-headset-announced-ces-2018
New Vive - 78% greater resolution 2160x1200 to 2880x1600, Rift like headphones, 2 front cameras, 2 microphones. Time will tell. I hope Rift 2.0 or whatever comes out soon, as I don't think I'll by trying...more like risking an HTC purchase ever again, but I like the greater res idea, a lot.
ratz,that's counter to what i've heard so far. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
SO Gman, you're a solid Rift supporter, at the very least for Aces High?
The other game i'd really like to experience in VR is Elite Dangerous, anyone have experience with that game and VR?
-
Skuzzy are there things you can’t do with the Vive that you can with the rift or you can do the same things with both but the Rift is easier to implement?
The Rift just operates better. Smoother motion overall with a steadier frame rate. Both of which are needed for the best immersion.
The problem with increasing the resolution of the VR headsets is the video card requirements.
-
Just some suggestions from local games shops; biggest point was that the VIVE is more value with the controllers and a better/more comfortable headset.
Still in early stages, but starting to drool at some of the videos getting put out now...
Sounds like they got it backwards. Rift is cheaper and currently better for AH.
Vive pro may change that but they'll need to improve the software to handle the higher resolution.
-
From a pure hardware perspective, we think the Vive headset is better than the Rift, but the Vive sensors are designed for room size space to operate in, while the Rift sensors lends itself to the desktop better.
-
Cockpit games, be they flying, cars, whatever, which all = desktop, not roomscale, are without question better on the Rift than the Vive. I tried every sim/driving game that supported VR, it was across the board better on the Rift, and that's supported by the forums of each of those games, few if any thought that the Vive was superior.
Yes, the actual hardware/set of the Vive is a bit nicer, although their ear buds suck compared to the Rift's audio (it sucks a bit too, just not as badly), but god himself can't help you if ANY of the Vive hardware breaks. Just contact Vive's support for a laugh if you don't believe me, and see what happens. Gong show, every time, I mean like so bad you think you're being punked, bad. There is ample info online about dealing with HTC over problems, most of it not complementary. Google HTC Vive +customer service, you get the phone book of YT videos and Reddit pages of complaints and stories similar to mine.
Also, the Vive is a couple hundred more still than the Rift. The Vive is slightly better if you must wear glasses (regular ones, everyone should spend the 50$ and get the inserts IMO). The Vive also is more "nose heavy", and I and the other users of the ones I had found them more difficult to get comfortable with than the Rift, but this is subjective. Also, the sensors for the Vive contain moving parts - the Rift's don't, and back to that whole customer service issue thing...all it takes is one long drop onto a hard service and the Vive sensors can fail.
Someone else put it best IMO - if you can only afford one VR set, the Vive is the one you buy if you like to show off gee-whiz stand up art/shootem up games at cocktail parties to people who like console-like games. The Rift is the one you buy if you're a serious PC gamer.
Edit - The Rift works extremely well for the space game Elite Dangerous. It was the 2nd or 3rd thing I played using the Rift.
-
So the consumer support is consistent with the developer support. I.E. nonexistent and what might be there is a joke. Actually, nonexistent would be better than what they have.
-
Excellent, thanks for the information! Thinking the Rift is now the way to go for this gamer...
:salute
-
Pretty much Skuzzy - on HTC's own forums I simply can't believe how bad they let things get, completely out of control in terms of a backlog of people with huge hardware problems, some waiting 4 to 6 months just to get a resolution started. It doesn't surprise me that on the developer side they are just as incompetent. I was told there is only 4 reps on the continent of North America for the entire HTC company by one rep there...the rest is all outsourced, and not outsourced well.
I read that RoadtoVR article - it looks like the hew headset is shipping without the new 2.0 sensors...which means you'll have to own a current Vive with the old sensors in order to even use it. I'll cut paste the paragraph about this -
Today at CES, HTC announced that the Vive Pro would be first shipping sometime in Q1 as the headset only. That means it would be used with the old Vive wand controllers, with both the headset and the controllers utilizing 1.0 tracking. HTC said that later in the year the Vive Pro will eventually ship with 2.0 base stations and controllers, but they didn’t specify which controllers. 2.0 base stations aren’t compatible with the current Vive wand controllers, so it will either be a the same wand controller with updated 2.0 sensors, or something completely new.
So, if I read that correctly, the new 2.0 sensors will come out later - knowing HTC much later - in 2018, and in the meantime you're just going to be stuck with using the old sensors on the new headset? A headset which the article hints at being even more than the $800USD cost of the original Vive? I hope that's all incorrect, as I see the makings of gong show 2.0 in this article, and it's not even out yet.
-
Edit - The Rift works extremely well for the space game Elite Dangerous. It was the 2nd or 3rd thing I played using the Rift.
When showcasing my Rift, I load up Elite Dangerous and let them try it out - having the Saitek controllers is kinda neat cause the ingame controllers kinda look like a Saitek X-52. :lol
-
Still, the new Vive is about 1/2 way there to what I "want", in terms of improving the resolution and general look of the screens. I sure hope Oculus has a counter for this. I'll honestly probably try the new HTC headset, only IF I don't have to buy another old one for the sensors, just to see how much better the resolution looks - after all, I still have a "free" one thanks to HTC's incompetence and stupidity. Unless they announce a similar Rift that will come out soon too, then I'll wait for that, but if it's going to be a year for a Rift 2.0/whatever, and I can see that since Oculus is coming out with China focused "cheap" VR headsets right now, I may have to settle for the HTC for a higher res unit.
Real tough call, I absolutely HATE the idea of giving HTC any more money, even if I'm just giving their money back to them, but I also don't want to wait a year, IF the new resolution makes a big difference. Probably wait to try one in a store, or get advice from a tester I really trust before getting one.
Again, optimal situation is Oculus or some other solid VR maker comes out with a higher res unit by Q2/Q3 this year. I know there are the Pimax/etc ones, but guys I've read on other sim boards that have messed with it with other sim games, it didn't really blow my hair back, the reviews I read there.
I'll admit, I'm one of the VR adopters -and I got them both right away - who really, really hates the resolution and general "huge step backwards" that both sets give compared to even a 1080p 24" LCD. When you have 1440p and 4k 100 to 165hz units, comparing that screen to the VR one is a real, real drag. Yes, it's the "experience' that VR gives, and I'm into that, but I sure do miss the higher quality graphics. A lot. Play a single player jet sim game, and realize that blob you're looking at just out of guns range in VR, comparatively to a good gaming LCD, where you can read the numbers off of that same aircraft, and see little details....it's a big negative for me with VR.
-
VR resolution is better than 1080P. Saying the resolution is lower is misleading. The issue is that the virtual "screen" appears bigger than 24". Even with improved resolution you're still going to be looking at magnified pixels.
Compare VR to 1080P projected on a wall and VR looks pretty good.
-
For me, it's not necessarily the resolution, but the field of view offered by the headset. Both right now make me feel like I'm walking around with a pair of swimming goggles on. The first headset that has a broader screen to cover a better and more realistic peripheral view with decent resolution will be the winner in the long run. It's that lack of side vision that causes balance issues for some wearers.
Vive 2.0 doesn't address that - maybe Rift 2.0 will? Resolution is nice, but total view is king.
-
The other game i'd really like to experience in VR is Elite Dangerous, anyone have experience with that game and VR?
I picked up Elite Dangerous, but haven't played it yet because I got stuck in the UI trying to figure out how to map my CH hardware. I got frustrated and gave up.
-
VR resolution is better than 1080P. Saying the resolution is lower is misleading. The issue is that the virtual "screen" appears bigger than 24". Even with improved resolution you're still going to be looking at magnified pixels.
Compare VR to 1080P projected on a wall and VR looks pretty good.
I'll put it a different way - I only used 24" as it's the cheapest 1080p lcd size typically.
Take ANY sized 1080p lcd, 24, 27, 32, whatever - take a game, not this one, but say DCS. When you're just into guns range on a planform aircraft, in VR, it looks like a blob, there is NO way you can even ID the type of aircraft at the same distance on a desktop LCD where you can literally see small details already. That's what I mean.
To me what's misleading is people throwing out the VR resolution as though it's somehow comparable to desktop LCDs, number for number, as it's not, not even close (not you FLS btw). A very low res (these days) LCD used for gaming, any old 1080p, is far, far superior to both VR sets out there now, when it comes to seeing details at similar ranges. Take any aircraft you can visually ID on a desktop, and look at it from the same distance in VR, and, again, it'll just be a giant blob essentially still. You can tell it's a plane, but that's about it, and a similar distance. A 1440p or 4k monitor, it's not even close.
What I'm after, and when I'll consider VR truly "there", and sell off my gaming 1440/4k LCDs, is when VR looks even reasonably close to a 1080p LCD in terms of the visual acuity of details. It's not even close right now. I doubt it'll be there even with Vive 2.0, but it'll be an improvement at least. IMO it'll take a larger jump to even higher VR resolutions, higher than the 8k Pimax perhaps even, to get it to where it looks as good as a desktop from the last generation/1080p.
-
The reason the resolution is so much differences is
First your real real res is 960 x 1080 to each eye.
2nd only ab out 70% of the the 960 x 1080 is Visable.
Hence your are down to and apparent res of 672 x 756.
HiTech
-
HT, does that mean that if you turned a desktop down to that res, 672x756 or something similar/close, that it would be fairly close to representing what you see in VR?
Will HTC try out one of the Vive 2.0s if they offer dealer/creator units? If it comes out in Q1 as they say, this is the first place I'll watch to decide if it'll be worth it to try it out.
-
FWIW, I'm loving this conversation. I've delayed jumping into the VR thing for these exact reasons. What you can see in a game is very important! While it may be super awesome for a FPS game where visuals that matter range from a few feet to a few tens of feet, in the flying world you really NEED to be able to see, and clearly, over great distances. Hundreds and even thousands of yards of good vision are needed in this kind of game. Speeds are too fast. It's not the same as running on the ground. You simply HAVE to be able to identify a target's identity and attitude way farther out than just guns range.
I have no doubt that this tech will improve over time to get to this level of clarity but for now it's looking like updating my controllers is the right path. I'll wait. Make no mistake! I'll be all over this when one comes out that's RIGHT.
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
-
The reason the resolution is so much differences is
First your real real res is 960 x 1080 to each eye.
2nd only ab out 70% of the the 960 x 1080 is Visable.
Hence your are down to and apparent res of 672 x 756.
HiTech
That seems low. I would have guessed 1400x1200
I understand the horizontal overlaps but why is the vertical reduced?
-
FWIW, I'm loving this conversation. I've delayed jumping into the VR thing for these exact reasons. What you can see in a game is very important! While it may be super awesome for a FPS game where visuals that matter range from a few feet to a few tens of feet, in the flying world you really NEED to be able to see, and clearly, over great distances. Hundreds and even thousands of yards of good vision are needed in this kind of game. Speeds are too fast. It's not the same as running on the ground. You simply HAVE to be able to identify a target's identity and attitude way farther out than just guns range.
I have no doubt that this tech will improve over time to get to this level of clarity but for now it's looking like updating my controllers is the right path. I'll wait. Make no mistake! I'll be all over this when one comes out that's RIGHT.
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
...this basically summed up my thoughts too....until one of my sons sent me a rift. I do find that when I receive helpful 6 calls in a fight, I have a more difficult time finding the bandit in the rift as compared to TrackIR/monitor, and end up getting shot down more often by someone I didn't see. But the bottom line for me is that now that I've experienced the immersion of VR, I'll stick with it, and prefer the immersive experience despite, at least inititally, a SA penalty.
-
The immersive experience is a compelling feature for VR.
-
It's funny you should say this because before the rift, on my monitor i could not see well enough to fly a fighter. For the the first year of being back to AH.
I couldn't even tell if a plane was coming or going or what it was really doing. It was extremely frustrating and I had resigned myself to mostly flying bombers. I have to assume my monitor was just too small because with the rift i have no problem seeing what's going on and actually seeing planes in the distance before the rift-less folk around me.
You are absolutely right about the speeds, and when you are flying some of the less manuverable planes (can't make a lot of last minute corrections ) and need to be able to anticipate, you must be able to see what your target is doing, to guess what he's thinking of doing.
The only alternative for me would have been getting a ginormous monitor, like wall sized or something . :O
FWIW, I'm loving this conversation. I've delayed jumping into the VR thing for these exact reasons. What you can see in a game is very important! While it may be super awesome for a FPS game where visuals that matter range from a few feet to a few tens of feet, in the flying world you really NEED to be able to see, and clearly, over great distances. Hundreds and even thousands of yards of good vision are needed in this kind of game. Speeds are too fast. It's not the same as running on the ground. You simply HAVE to be able to identify a target's identity and attitude way farther out than just guns range.
-
I have to assume my monitor was just too small because with the rift i have no problem seeing what's going on and actually seeing planes in the distance before the rift-less folk around me.
I'd have to agree that it seems like those I've flown with that are using the rift, and you were one of them when we flew FSO together, seem to always be able to pick out the dots before anyone else. And I think that likely goes with what HT was saying about the overall res you're seeing in the rift. I remember the last monitor I had wasn't a 1080 monitor. I forget what the max was but I want to say it was only 760? Back in those days I could always see dots way off. But as soon as I went to a 1080 monitor the distant dots are harder to pick out until they get closer. Higher res the dots are still there but physically smaller so harder to see and any aliasing makes it worse.
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
-
I still think the Rift in this game, and other sims, is a must have, despite the negatives I"m going on about here. Again, I was a very early adopter, I bought 2 of each, and the mini reviews I wrote on the "other" site, several guys PM'd me saying "wth" when I later came out critical of the resolution, saying they had bought the Rift due to my raving about it in the first reviews I did.
I still feel that way, it's just long term frustration having very high end GPUs (several 1080ti and a Titan XP) as well as several of the best 100-165hz IPS gaming LCDs, that I don't see that same visual clarity while using VR. As others have said, myself included, it's the experience that's the big selling point. And it's more than worth it - just because I'm blathering on about what I "wish" VR was, doesn't mean that what it currently IS isn't worth it. It is, especially for the price you can get a Rift now, which is exactly 1/2 what I paid when it first came out, and that's without the controllers as they weren't included back then, none of the Touch stuff was for months.
Best advice is if you can't try one out somewhere, if you're on the fence, jump off of it, despite the inferior graphics/clarity, you won't be returning it. Especially if you play more than one cockpit game - if you play lots of them, driving games too, it's a no brainer, and should be the very next thing you buy IMO. If you live in a major center, BestBuy/whatever often has a demo one out, sneak in AH on a thumb drive and tell the sales-geek you'll only buy it if you can try it, frequently they'll let you. Then you'll see what everyone is going on about, it truly is incredible, despite any complaints. HTC was fast out of the gate, and still has the best implementation of VR across the sim/space/driving sim market IMO. You lose nothing in terms of competitiveness, being able to incorporate the hat/keypad views with VR lets you see your 6 as quickly as TrackIR/etc, where as in other games, this doesn't exist, and puts you at a disadvantage vs non VR players in PvP type play.
-
We'd like a holodeck but the Rift is what we have now. :aok
On the plus side, the hardware that runs the Rift will also run a 4K monitor. :D
-
Screen Door Effect
I advise you to do a demo of these devices. The visual clarity is terrible IMO. If I had demoed, I would not have purchased.
All the software in the world cannot make up for the poor visual clarity.
I own a RIFT.
:salute
-
My monitor has a screen door effect when I look at it with a magnifying glass. It's not likely to go away with slightly higher resolution in VR headsets.
-
OLED displays?
-
OLED displays?
Still there, but a little less dramatic. What makes VR work, even at lower resolution is the user being focused on what is going on in the world, and not the technology providing the visual.
If you focus on the mechanics of it all, it is pretty bad.