General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Tracerfi on January 18, 2018, 04:54:12 PM
Title: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: Tracerfi on January 18, 2018, 04:54:12 PM
This is something that I have seen for awhile and is quite gamey and annoying that people fly off Map to avoid detection and yes i know you have a big arrow telling you that someone is off Map but that is not the point. There needs to be a deterrent to prevent this.
In the screenshot I posted the pilot has been flying off map for 3 sectors by now and is heading to the City and HQ while still staying off Map until he gets to the strats.
I would like to have a meaningful Discussion about this but I have a feeling that wont happen :salute :bolt:
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: wil3ur on January 18, 2018, 05:08:12 PM
Unfortunately there are those that choose to avoid combat by any means necessary. The way the game awards rank is partially dependent upon deaths. Since many of these people have never taken the time to learn how to shoot, or learn ACM, they've chosen to learn how to find ways to avoid combat. Whether it's sitting in trees with your engine turned off camping a spawn, flying outside of the map bounds, or piling into a gigantic unstoppable horde, then end goal is to pad your score by limiting your exposure.
Judging by the months of lamenting the addition of GV dar, I can only imagine the whines that would ensue if things like an icon location were added when flying off map, or an invisible wall that dumps all ammo and ord when you cross it, or any of the other suggestions people have made over the years.
Best thing to do is try and keep an eye on them, up a 163 when they arrive and blast them out of the air so their extra time off map just means it took them longer to die. :joystick:
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: Devil 505 on January 18, 2018, 05:12:19 PM
Flying off map should trigger killshooter for any gun or bomb damage. Need to make the repercussions for lame behavior sting a bit.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: molybdenum on January 18, 2018, 06:21:24 PM
I used to fly off map regularly (don't play any more). Here's why.
Many strats on most maps are placed at the margins of enemy territory. What are the options for a strat runner? Head directly to target, with your bomber icon screaming "Kill me!" I'm slow and relatively defenseless!" and give defenders a swift and easy kill? Thus wasting the hour I probably took to get to target for nothing?
OR...make them WORK to kill me? They'll get me (if they want to!) AFTER I drop on the target I spent an hour to hit.
It's the same as the GV dar crap. We don't want to avoid a fight. We want a fight AFTER we have a chance to achieve the objective we put a lot of time and thought into attempting to hit.
Next you'll be saying that NOE flying is "avoiding a fight," devil. Jeez.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: serun on January 18, 2018, 07:49:54 PM
My thoughts on this are that if you fly off the map your plane should just explode and send your silly behind back to the tower.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: Oldman731 on January 18, 2018, 08:31:58 PM
My thoughts on this are that if you fly off the map your plane should just explode
Agreed. Don't really know why that doesn't happen already.
- oldman
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: atlau on January 18, 2018, 09:16:35 PM
What does the AH universe look like when you are off map? A black vacuum?
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: eddiek on January 18, 2018, 09:32:55 PM
I've gotten to where most times I might climb high enough to ID them, and then I go find fun elsewhere. Let 'em bomb. They get a nice little message saying how much "damage" they did, which makes them feel like they accomplished something. Our HQ was at 0% most of the day, if not all day.....still had dar, so no real effect on me. I figure if they really wanted to fight, they wouldn't climb to the stratosphere. Mathman used to organize missions, most would be around 20K or that vicinity, and it didn't matter if they reached their target, or were intercepted and destroyed, they fought their way in, even announced to the whole arena that they were coming. Same with the GV folks......they want to accomplish their objective without, or before a fight. Man, I miss the early days of AH and AH2. The GV icons from 6K were a bit much, but a 3K GV icon would increase the number of fights, IF fights is what they are truly wanting. Sorry for getting off topic.........let em bomb. Things will be back up before they get their crates back on the ground, they will get the satisfaction of blowing something up, and everyone else gets to keep on doing what they like to do.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: icepac on January 18, 2018, 09:38:46 PM
I routinely flew NOE over 100s of miles of terrain, bombed the HQ down, and flew home NOE.
No need to leave the map.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: Mongoose on January 18, 2018, 09:48:36 PM
This is something that I have seen for awhile and is quite gamey and annoying that people fly off Map to avoid detection and yes i know you have a big arrow telling you that someone is off Map but that is not the point. There needs to be a deterrent to prevent this.
<some deleted>
I would like to have a meaningful Discussion about this but I have a feeling that wont happen :salute :bolt:
This has been brought up before. The consensus in the past was that there simply was not a good way to stop this behavior that would not do more harm than good. Many suggestions would be made, but each one would cause more problems than it solved.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: Mongoose on January 18, 2018, 09:52:37 PM
I used to fly off map regularly (don't play any more). Here's why.
Many strats on most maps are placed at the margins of enemy territory. What are the options for a strat runner? Head directly to target, with your bomber icon screaming "Kill me!" I'm slow and relatively defenseless!" and give defenders a swift and easy kill? Thus wasting the hour I probably took to get to target for nothing?
OR...make them WORK to kill me? They'll get me (if they want to!) AFTER I drop on the target I spent an hour to hit.
It's the same as the GV dar crap. We don't want to avoid a fight. We want a fight AFTER we have a chance to achieve the objective we put a lot of time and thought into attempting to hit.
Next you'll be saying that NOE flying is "avoiding a fight," devil. Jeez.
The way you play will either have a positive impact on the game and the community, or it will have a negative impact on the game and the community. The tactic and attitudes you describe have a negative impact on the community.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: Mano on January 18, 2018, 11:19:58 PM
Easy fix :D
When you fly off the map you instantly appear on the exact opposite of the map. You would never leave the map. Ever.
Something else would result from this. We will be guarding all of of our frontiers.
:salute
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: Vraciu on January 18, 2018, 11:32:50 PM
My thoughts on this are that if you fly off the map your plane should just explode and send your silly behind back to the tower.
Or fly through to the other side like Asteroids or PacMan. :rofl
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: 1stpar3 on January 18, 2018, 11:33:17 PM
I can see where you are coming from, I just dont see it like you do. I dont see off the map as a game play problem. On or Off the map, still virtually the same condition. Done right, and dodging radars is pretty much the same as flying off map, IMO. You still have to look hard to find them, no? Thats saying, IF any one wanted to defends strats. Thats seems a bit Hot/Cold, dont always see defenders upping to intercept raiders. So what is the harm to game play?
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: Vraciu on January 18, 2018, 11:33:59 PM
This has been brought up before. The consensus in the past was that there simply was not a good way to stop this behavior that would not do more harm than good. Many suggestions would be made, but each one would cause more problems than it solved.
A gently rising mountain range up to 100K feet would do the trick nicely.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: DubiousKB on January 19, 2018, 08:55:43 AM
A gently rising mountain range up to 100K feet would do the trick nicely.
I wasn't part of the "old" conversations regarding this because when someone on the message board says it's been talked about before, that could mean 10-15 years ago!
My opinion on it is similar to Vraciu's approach (not sure if that's good or bad V!), but it requires some new maps. Now, not being a terrain editor like some of our dedicated community *oink*, I'm not going to speak TOOO far out of turn, BUT:
Isn't it possible to restrict the "off-map" flying by literally designing barriers at the terrain edge? Why not a large mountain range?
OR
Auto-Puffy Ack on speed/meth; the further "off-map" you get, the more lethal the ack gets. :devil At map edge, get a little puffy reminder. Keep going off map edge = johnny puffy-ack gunner get's increasingly better....
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: TWCAxew on January 19, 2018, 09:33:15 AM
we should have the same kinda walls in the MA as we have in matchplay that prevents running. I was impressed how that was implemented.
DutchVII
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: Kanth on January 19, 2018, 09:47:26 AM
i don't normally get into these things but that's what i was thinking as well.
Hitech should add AI fighters to patrol out there. :devil
I like this -- 40K 152s buzzing around ready to tear you up.
In regards to the loop around to the other side -- heck no, do you realize how easily that could be abused? For example, in the Uterus map, I could fly from the SW or SE corner due south, and end up directly over HQ and City within minutes, and be back to friendly territory just as quickly. I'd say as fun as it sounds, it's a big no.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: Wiley on January 19, 2018, 11:04:36 AM
I'm in favor of instant death.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: Mano on January 19, 2018, 11:23:20 AM
Another suggestion:
A small buffer zone around the edge of the map. Once you go beyond that buffer zone your engine dies. If you turn back your engine returns to normal operation.
This will keep players in the field of play.
:salute
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: Kanth on January 19, 2018, 11:41:43 AM
I"m also in favor of setting them on fire., which is why i don't often participate in these.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: 100Coogn on January 19, 2018, 12:11:45 PM
A small buffer zone around the edge of the map. Once you go beyond that buffer zone your engine dies. If you turn back your engine returns to normal operation.
This will keep players in the field of play.
:salute
To me, this is about the most fair response I have read. Some folks may drift off the map by accident. Maybe they're AFK for a short or something. This way the player may have a chance to continue their sortie, that is if they get back on the map before they become a lawn-dart.
Coogan
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: JimmyD3 on January 19, 2018, 12:41:50 PM
Dang you wont let that "lame game play" issue alone. Trying to do the same thing to Bombers you did to GV's? How about NOE that "Lame game play" also?
What ever.
NOE is not lame behavior -- NOE mission mass bailing because one fighter flies over them (seen it happen many many many times *coughjokerscoughvtardscoughcough*) is lame behavior.
Driving a Jeep inside a Tiger2 and machine gunning it down (yes, you used to be able to do this) is lame game play.
Flying off the map 30 sectors to avoid combat in a combat sim is lame game play.
And GVDar has been shown NOT to have affected the rate at which vehicles are bombed by more than a percentage point, while the deaths of attack planes against GV's has actually increased, so THAT is a LAME ARGUEMENT! :ahand :bolt:
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: molybdenum on January 19, 2018, 01:51:25 PM
Flying off the map 30 sectors to avoid combat in a combat sim is lame game play.
And GVDar has been shown NOT to have affected the rate at which vehicles are bombed by more than a percentage point, while the deaths of attack planes against GV's has actually increased, so THAT is a LAME ARGUEMENT! :ahand :bolt:
1) No one has ever "flown off the map 30 sectors." Even if they had the will, they wouldn't have had the fuel. If you feel the need to exaggerate to try to make a point, your point probably cannot stand on its own. 2) Got documentation for this mere percentage point difference that you claim exists?
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: wil3ur on January 19, 2018, 03:15:34 PM
30 Sectors is not impossible, I can do it on a single tank in a 262 if I want. Even moreso in a bomber. If you take into account they're flying more than a sector above the map, added with 10 sectors in and 10 sectors out, it's very easily a 30 sector round trip spent off map avoiding fights.
Percentages of tank kills were discussed in a previous thread with great backup, documentation, graphs and input from the illustrious Lusche.
But, as with everything else in the snowflake generation, perception Trumps facts! :old: :bolt:
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: SPKmes on January 19, 2018, 03:22:02 PM
What about a wall of wind on the boundaries...100 knot winds out
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: wil3ur on January 19, 2018, 03:24:36 PM
My preference would just be for an orbital laser to obliterate their aircraft in a great flash of light.
Wiley.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60AjI1pIzVQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INFavIUmhcE
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: haggerty on January 19, 2018, 04:04:38 PM
I love intercepting buffs, I have no issues with them going off map. Just imagine the map continues forever, what difference does it make if you dont see ground below them? I find that bombers are easier to spot off map as well. My only problem with people going off map is that 84% of the time they will bail when you spot them, hopefully the new proxy ranges have fixed that.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: JimmyD3 on January 19, 2018, 05:24:48 PM
NOE is not lame behavior -- NOE mission mass bailing because one fighter flies over them (seen it happen many many many times *coughjokerscoughvtardscoughcough*) is lame behavior.
Driving a Jeep inside a Tiger2 and machine gunning it down (yes, you used to be able to do this) is lame game play.
Flying off the map 30 sectors to avoid combat in a combat sim is lame game play.
And GVDar has been shown NOT to have affected the rate at which vehicles are bombed by more than a percentage point, while the deaths of attack planes against GV's has actually increased, so THAT is a LAME ARGUEMENT! :ahand :bolt:
As I said, "What ever". :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: BuckShot on January 20, 2018, 07:34:46 AM
How about infinite icon visibility distance when off map?
Fly off map: icon visible for 20, 30, 100k, Infinite.
They could hide (with only an arrow) on the map but not from those willing to chase them off map.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: waystin2 on January 20, 2018, 08:55:02 AM
Leaving the map receives a warning "Return to map boundary in 5 minutes or all weapons and ordnance will be discharged". If they don't return let them take an unarmed sight seeing tour. :aok
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: icepac on January 20, 2018, 05:27:47 PM
Just make the dot visible to all countries once the con is off map.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: Mano on January 20, 2018, 07:27:23 PM
Some good suggestion so far. Would any of them be easy for Hitech to program? Maybe the disabled ords or the engine off once outside the boundary would not be so dificult to implement. I do not know.
It is also possible Hitech wants to keep it just the way it is. Do the few guys that wander off the map have any real impact on the game? I have gone off map while afk during climb out and it was not my intention to leave the map. When I came back it took awhile to get back on the map. I was also allot further from my target than I anticipatd. I wasted allot of fuel making my chances for return to base after dropping ords, slim and none. Many bombers reach their maxium alitude and do not climb any more. None of the bombers climb forever.
My two cents.
:salute
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: Traveler on January 21, 2018, 09:26:28 AM
This is not worth the time and effort needed by HiTech to fix/resolve. The route the nme takes to the target doesn't really matter anyway. If you chose to up to defend you just have to arrive at the target well above the bombers, all the targets are on the map. The problem as I see it remains with Bomber groups who seem to have unlimited performance at the higher altitudes while interceptors seem to fall far short. Now resolve that issue and your improving the game play.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: icepac on January 21, 2018, 04:37:14 PM
I used to enjoy the challenge to find them.
The only disappointments I ever had searching were when I didn't realize the arrow was someone who had fallen asleep while his plane flew 20 sectors off map.
It was also fun to up a gun heavy fighter and fly NOE where I thought they would come back into the map and surprise them by getting into "proxy range" before they could bail.
I don't know why others don't do it.
Instead, they up from a rear field dragging a "I'm coming" darbar and whine when the strat raiders bail before they can intercept them.
It's a given that they are low when someone suddenly shows up at your strats.
I'm probably only at the controls for about 50% of the time so I often sat where I thought they would show up and turn the sound way up as I did things around the house.
When you take off from a rear field, you don't have to worry much about range comms blasting the cranked speakers.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: molybdenum on January 22, 2018, 05:22:21 PM
"Mark Twain reportedly once said that "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Twain wasn't saying that statistics themselves lie; he was implying that dishonest people like yourself can twist statistics to support almost any purpose they have a vested interest in promoting. In the link you gave, Luche said that "Absolute numbers don't say much. You'd at least would have to look at the percentages of kills compared to toal arena kills. Better yet, look at the hours played in the different modes as well (which would also give information about changing gameplay by true k/h)" If you saw the graph with which you used to make your 1% claim, you certainly also saw his disclaimer about the validity of drawing conclusions based on it until the statistics they reflected were put in the proper context. And yet you deliberately ignored what he said to further your own agenda. Nice.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: wil3ur on January 22, 2018, 06:07:14 PM
"Mark Twain reportedly once said that "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Twain wasn't saying that statistics themselves lie; he was implying that dishonest people like yourself can twist statistics to support almost any purpose they have a vested interest in promoting. In the link you gave, Luche said that "Absolute numbers don't say much. You'd at least would have to look at the percentages of kills compared to toal arena kills. Better yet, look at the hours played in the different modes as well (which would also give information about changing gameplay by true k/h)" If you saw the graph with which you used to make your 1% claim, you certainly also saw his disclaimer about the validity of drawing conclusions based on it until the statistics they reflected were put in the proper context. And yet you deliberately ignored what he said to further your own agenda. Nice.
So... just to make you feel dumb, I already said that too! :neener:
Yup -- looking at the numbers, there's a whole lot of huffing over what appears to be gameplay as usual when it comes to the ground attack game.
Some people need an excuse for dying I guess, and blaming the game and/or hacks/cheats/shades seems to be the go-to excuse.
However, just to play devils advocate here so I don't beat up on the whiners too much... there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: wil3ur on January 22, 2018, 06:16:46 PM
Lusche has no skin in the game, and doesn't skew his numbers. Yes, there are other evaluations on 'score' in this game such as k/h, but again, it doesn't change the fact that NOTHING HAS CHANGED by the numbers. It's the PERCEPTION of people thinking they are being singled out.
If you want to look at something REAL that changed in the game due to a change in mechanics, look at the A2A kills of the IL2 once F3 was removed. There is a very real disconnect in what happened/was happening there and the game fixed it.
Fact of the matter is, even with GV dar, it's still nearly impossible to see a GV until it's too late. The statistics in this regard show no real difference in this. I think the real telling numbers would be the amount of A2G kills prior to icon range being shortened, A2G kills prior to the Storch being put in and range being shortened even more, and AH3 where vehicles are mostly invisible. I don't have the time or the wont to do the research on this, but I can tell you from my own personal perspective, attack/bomb****ing went way down after all three of those things.
If you want to look at it historically, Trinity was the GV map. V85 spawn was an amazing crapshoot of spawn campers, smoke throwers, CV's shelling/upping attack planes and lancstukkas. This continued through all of the changes up until the map was retired... That being said, If you're red, I'm going to kill you regardless of what your where you are, and I don't need no GV dar to do it (and I still love shooting down buffs in my IL2 if I guessed wrong).
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: fuzeman on January 22, 2018, 07:06:19 PM
Neither for or against it but if they wanted to stop it a nice lightning bolt graphic would be great. :t
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: OldBull on January 24, 2018, 10:28:08 AM
This topic has been around as long as the game has. It is evident from the many posts here that there are many ways of discouraging this practice but none have been implemented. I t would seem that Hitech does not consider it a problem and isn't going to do anything to prevent it, much like bombing and bailing or other forms of play that some consider "The Downfall of the Game". I don't like it but I am not going to leave the game over it
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: Vraciu on January 24, 2018, 10:43:57 AM
Bomb and Bail has dramatically declined with the increased proxy kill range. Hitech DOES answer player concerns.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: wil3ur on January 24, 2018, 11:30:54 AM
Bomb and Bail has dramatically declined with the increased proxy kill range. Hitech DOES answer player concerns.
It has decreased quite a bit. I've only had one set do it to me while in icon range and still got the proxies. I have noticed the new thing is to shed 20K feet in a dive back towards friendly territory and try and ditch. There's just certain people that will do anything to avoid giving a kill, except actually learn how to fly and kill things. :x
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: Wiley on January 24, 2018, 11:38:26 AM
It has decreased quite a bit. I've only had one set do it to me while in icon range and still got the proxies. I have noticed the new thing is to shed 20K feet in a dive back towards friendly territory and try and ditch. There's just certain people that will do anything to avoid giving a kill, except actually learn how to fly and kill things. :x
Meh, long as he doesn't get bombs on target, count it as a win. I'm happy about the proxy change, although I rarely chase strat runners these days.
Off map is annoying in that you don't know if it's the guy who fell asleep and is 3 sectors off map or if he's just skirting the map with the intent to pop back on at the opportune moment. If you don't treat it as the latter, he gets a more or less free shot at the rear strats. It's cheesy.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Off Map Bomber Pilots
Post by: bustr on January 24, 2018, 11:59:37 AM
On my next terrain I'm setting up the backfield with the HQ\strats a little closer to the active combat feilds so I can place the three uncapturable airfields out past them. Since Hitech set my three uncapturable airfields on Oceania as 163 bases, I'll use that precedence to protect the HQ\strats from those off map greifers. I chose not to make use of Flak bases on Oceania since they don't seem to knock down many strat runners.
With two terrains under my belt testing many game functions and how players utilize them, this decision has come out of evolving how I setup strats on those two different terrains. We are reaching a point that either terrain construction evolves to bring the HQ\strats into danger and make that a normal part of game play or, you guys wish list them gone since most of you don't want to be bothered with defending them. Hitech personally making all three of the uncapturable airfields for each country on Oceania seems to be a shift towards accepting some change like all the tests I've been incorporating in my previous terrains. We play this game differently now than we did ten years ago.