Post by: Arlo on February 03, 2018, 01:39:40 PM
Outside of the AvA, WWI or AH events (and setting aside the training and dueling arenas) Aces High in the Main Arena is designed around a three-sided and fictional terrain of balanced proportions where three fictional 'countries' (Rooks, Knights and Bishops) combat each other using the same WWII hardware (all sides having equal access to and use of U.S., British, German, Italian, Soviet, Japanese ... and Finnish toys). Historically speaking, this represents no war known to man on Earth.
Of course, this is for balance and fair game play and some may argue that the equal access to all hardware or the three-sided free-for-all format doesn't matter and that AH is still a war game. Some may counter that setting makes all the difference and that this comes closer to a 'sci-fi' game where humans were abducted, placed on an 'earth-like planet', given equal proportions of combat hardware and resources as well as unlimited lives and forced to fight each other to (repeated) death until one side captures significant enough territory to force the terrain to rotate and win bonus perks. (Some will likely mention that there are, indeed, 'sci-fi war games.) Is the capture of terrain to the point of 'winning the map' really a 'war game' or is it just a competitive combat game? I guess it depends on your perspective.
What's yours? :t
Please bear in mind that several players just play to dogfight.
Post by: AAIK on February 03, 2018, 02:04:34 PM
There are two types of players:
1. Those who seek the chemical rush of intense air to air combat.
2. Those who want to be part of a larger group (Squads, wingmen).
Post by: Ciaphas on February 03, 2018, 02:12:07 PM
All you are doing is debating semantics and failing at doing so.
The literal definition of war as a noun is:
A state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.
The verb definition is:
engage in a war.
"small states warred against each other"
synonyms:fight (against), battle (against), combat (against), wage war against, take up arms against; feud with, quarrel with, struggle with/against, contend with, wrangle with, cross swords with; attack, engage (against), take on, skirmish with
"rival empires warred against each other"
Everyday the three sides in this game engage in war (which is synonymous with Engage in combat).
So, what’s the issue?
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Post by: Arlo on February 03, 2018, 02:42:29 PM
Post by: FLS on February 03, 2018, 02:56:18 PM
There are no actual 'nations' or 'states' or 'empires' in AH MA. Good God. :D
There are countries. :aok
Next you'll be telling us there aren't any aircraft. :D
Post by: Arlo on February 03, 2018, 03:00:07 PM
The point of the game is to win by capturing the most fields in a given map.
There are two types of players:
1. Those who seek the chemical rush of intense air to air combat.
2. Those who want to be part of a larger group (Squads, wingmen).
There are more than two types:
3. Those who want both.
4. Those who fly nowhere but the MA.
5. Those who fly in nothing but events.
6. Those who fly in both.
7. Those who fly in the AvA, as well.
8. Those who just fly in the AvA.
9. Those who fly in WWI, as well.
10. Those who don't fly but do GVs.
11. Those who do both.
12. Ship commanders.
etc.
Post by: Arlo on February 03, 2018, 03:02:34 PM
There are countries. :aok
Next you'll be telling us there aren't any aircraft. :D
There are 'sides.'
What rules each chess piece 'country?' Presidents, Kings, Emperors, Parliaments? Each each player allowed to vote in an election? ;)
Post by: Ciaphas on February 03, 2018, 03:03:28 PM
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Post by: bustr on February 03, 2018, 03:10:49 PM
There is no secret ingredient in the broth. The Melee arena is an open sandbox where you make it up as you go along each time you log in. That is why the current generation does not care much about win the war. Ganging and dominating our red guys appears to be in line with how they play other first person shooter games. Winning the war tends to be more important as a motivation to an earlier generation of players.
Arlo with a game like this it's not nice to open the hood where no one really wants to look. It's all about illusions that under the hood is not a VW bug air cooled but, a small block with a hemmi and a blower. That is the fantasy an open world allows the customer to play out for their $14.95.
If this were a war game, we would be firing generals, field commanders, and admirals every 15 minutes for incompetence and hiding from combat.
Post by: Arlo on February 03, 2018, 03:13:08 PM
I would hope that Arlo is trying his hand at trolling and nothing more.
Not trolling as much as applying sarcasm. This has indeed been a point of contention for some in this community. Those that share differing opinions on the matter usually find the other side amusing (or one would hope they only go that far). :)
I, personally, find your definition of 'war game' (in the MA) a bit broad for my liking (events are another thing) .... but then, I'm an historian and that likely narrows my parameters a bit. ;)
Post by: Arlo on February 03, 2018, 03:15:35 PM
If this were a war game, we would be firing generals, field commanders, and admirals every 15 minutes for incompetence and hiding from combat.
Which is why I'm content to be a virtual/imaginary/pretend Ensign. :D
Post by: BaldEagl on February 03, 2018, 03:16:44 PM
Post by: Arlo on February 03, 2018, 03:19:15 PM
It's The Hunger Games starring HT as Caesar Flickerman.
I've never watched "The Hunger Games" yet I seem to know enough about it to appreciate this post in a very mirthful manner. :D :cheers:
Post by: FLS on February 03, 2018, 03:21:02 PM
There are 'sides.'
What rules each chess piece 'country?' Presidents, Kings, Emperors, Parliaments? Each each player allowed to vote in an election? ;)
Go to the O'Club to change countries in the war.
The MA is a war game. Events are a war game. They are similar but different.
Post by: Arlo on February 03, 2018, 03:22:45 PM
Go to the O'Club to change countries in the war.
The MA is a war game. Events are a war game. They are similar but different.
If they are different then .....
Post by: bustr on February 03, 2018, 03:28:10 PM
Post by: Arlo on February 03, 2018, 03:30:58 PM
The Melee arena is an open world filled with WW2 toys to be used as players imaginations determine. Flipping the map sooner than it's rotation cycle is one option available from many functions in that open world Melee arena. The special events and AvA were created so our game could be played as a war game.
^^^^^^^^^
I completely agree with this. I'll further add that the MA is the best place to practice for events/the AvA.
:cheers:
(And opinions will vary .... which is ok. :))
Post by: Max on February 03, 2018, 03:57:36 PM
https://youtu.be/E8zwnXjIjPM
Post by: Arlo on February 03, 2018, 04:08:28 PM
Certs is a breath mint! :old:
https://youtu.be/E8zwnXjIjPM
Less filling ....
Post by: redcatcherb412 on February 03, 2018, 04:14:59 PM
Post by: FLS on February 03, 2018, 05:12:40 PM
If they are different then .....
You ran out of letters?
Would you like to buy a vowel?
Post by: Arlo on February 03, 2018, 05:29:07 PM
You ran out of letters?
Would you like to buy a vowel?
... then they are not the same. (Was leaving that obvious conclusion to you.) :D
Post by: Ciaphas on February 03, 2018, 05:57:10 PM
I hope that is not the case.
To have a war you must have two or more entities firing at one another.
It may not be the same “historical” context you are basing your definition from but it does not remove the fact that the MA is a war just played, well, more dynamic than any of the other special events.
Understand that by dynamics I am referring to more than the cats that are participating. It’s an open ended war that is volatile at best. There is no clear objectives for victory other than base caps and the eventual map rotation for winning the map. There are, however, missions that spawn micro objectives that at least within the scope of the folks in the mission, provide objective victory that in the end supports the map victory for rotation.
While I do agree with your comparison between the MA and the special events stuff (some of it at least) the MA is still viable as a war game.
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Post by: bustr on February 03, 2018, 06:34:38 PM
With unlimited lives there are no winners or looser's, just how often you can kick the other guy in the knee and get home to get a kills or damage message in the text buffer to show off with. You are free to organize friends and other players with green avatars to go with you as a group effort to create activity at a location provided for that kind of activity. Flipping the map just gets you some perks and another map to do it all over again alone, with friends, or with organized efforts. The AvA and special events arenas were provided to "play an organized war game".
The only war game in the "Melee" arena is the fantasy role you choose to assume in a sandbox filled with WW2 toys.
Melee (/ˈmeɪleɪ/ or /ˈmɛleɪ/, French: mêlée [mɛle]) generally refers to disorganized close combat in battles fought at abnormally close range with little central control once it starts.
In today's Melee arena, zero central control and 100% pandemonium.
Post by: Arlo on February 03, 2018, 06:35:44 PM
So, because the MA has no real historical significance other than the rides it’s not a war game?
I hope that is not the case.
To have a war you must have two or more entities firing at one another.
It may not be the same “historical” context you are basing your definition from but it does not remove the fact that the MA is a war just played, well, more dynamic than any of the other special events.
Understand that by dynamics I am referring to more than the cats that are participating. It’s an open ended war that is volatile at best. There is no clear objectives for victory other than base caps and the eventual map rotation for winning the map. There are, however, missions that spawn micro objectives that at least within the scope of the folks in the mission, provide objective victory that in the end supports the map victory for rotation.
While I do agree with your comparison between the MA and the special events stuff (some of it at least) the MA is still viable as a war game.
By loose definition, American football is a war game. I'm just not that loose. :D
Post by: bustr on February 03, 2018, 06:55:35 PM
The Melee arena is a daily cluster flop of keystone cops arena so customers can play act at war if that is what they choose between their ears. While running around like ferrets in a chicken shed throwing poo at each other and acting all kinds of ridiculous. You can get a taste of it in these forums by reading the years of complaints about how everyone else plays the Melee arena game wrong. There has never been any right way to play in the Melee arena, just play and take your chances.
Defining the Melee arena play as a war game is one more person who wants everyone else to play in the Melee arena their personal special way because, because, because, you get the point. There is not a special ingredient in the Melee arena noodle sauce. You just up a ride and take your chances like everyone has done since 1999 in the Melee arena.
Post by: Ciaphas on February 03, 2018, 06:57:02 PM
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Post by: redcatcherb412 on February 03, 2018, 06:58:36 PM
Its a combat game in an open world sand box "using WW2 toys" that "you" have decided is a war game.
In today's Melee arena, zero central control and 100% pandemonium.
And i'm sure some agree that pandemonium is exactly why they play AH. A game where one player can capture an entire town and airfield with every tool in the enemys toy box being used to try and stop them. It's a hoot. :cheers:
On edit: If I wanted the 'central control' aspect i'd see if the Army would take my tired old butt back and put me in a line unit. Been there, done that 50yrs ago, AH much much more fun and pain free.
Post by: Ciaphas on February 03, 2018, 07:00:04 PM
Stop assuming stuff man, you do this often when someone doesn’t agree with your thought process.
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Post by: bustr on February 03, 2018, 08:19:33 PM
Post by: Ciaphas on February 03, 2018, 08:39:09 PM
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Post by: Arlo on February 03, 2018, 08:41:02 PM
Post by: FLS on February 03, 2018, 08:49:15 PM
... then they are not the same. (Was leaving that obvious conclusion to you.) :D
You make a pointless point. Differences don't negate similarities.
Post by: Arlo on February 03, 2018, 09:05:40 PM
You make a pointless point. Differences don't negate similarities.
Nor do similarities make things the same. :old:
Post by: FLS on February 03, 2018, 09:07:44 PM
Nor do similarities make things the same. :old:
Nor is anyone claiming they do. See previous remark re: pointlessness.
Post by: Arlo on February 03, 2018, 09:11:54 PM
The MA is a war game. Events are a war game. They are similar but different.
They are different, they are not the same.
Hopscotch is a game. Soccer is a game. Only one is an actual sport. :cool:
Post by: FLS on February 04, 2018, 06:17:07 AM
Post by: waystin2 on February 04, 2018, 08:53:28 AM
Post by: flippz on February 04, 2018, 09:08:22 AM
The Pigs just like to watch red icon guys die and their bases burn. The war means nothing. It's the virtual death, destruction and chaos that means everything. We train and hone in the Melee for FSO and Scenarios. Thank you Red Icon guys. :aokand all this time I thought you guys were dedicated moving targets for us to practice on
Post by: Mongoose on February 04, 2018, 10:37:23 AM
The Melee arena is an open world filled with WW2 toys to be used as players imaginations determine.
Well said. I always felt it was like playing tag or Capture The Flag, but with airplanes. The ability to capture fields and flip maps gives us a chance to apply tactics and strategy.
Any way you cut it, it's a lot of fun. :banana:
Post by: Ciaphas on February 04, 2018, 11:08:32 AM
Splitting hairs for what reason? To try and prove some superiority complex?
Every offensive in a war turns in to a melee. The basis of comparison that is being used in long winded explanations boils down to not having a central HQ dishing out commands.
It’s quite easy to find this in the MA you just have to look for it. There are players that lead well and many of us will listen to them and push on with what ever it is we are doing. The by product of that is the inevitable map win and rotation.
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Post by: RufusLeaking on February 04, 2018, 12:33:30 PM
The melee arena is multiplayer flight sim in which planes (and gvs) can shoot and drop bombs.
The criteria for resetting the persistent map, aka winning, is to provide objectives over which to fight.
As a history nerd, some match-ups are slightly annoying, like when a P-47 opens up on a B-17. Not so annoying to prevent me from pulling the trigger, but, a hit to the immersion.
I still play as much as life and wife will allow, which is much less, lately. :salute
Post by: redcatcherb412 on February 04, 2018, 01:15:22 PM
I still play as much as life and wife will allow, which is much less, lately. :saluteStill waiting for Hitech to program a controller button to eliminate the ack of 'get yer asz in here and eat or the dogs getting it', Never mind the dogs busy licking its butt so the taste of the cooking isn't too overpowering. :D
Post by: Arlo on February 04, 2018, 02:13:22 PM
Still cracking me up on this.
Splitting hairs for what reason? To try and prove some superiority complex?
Every offensive in a war turns in to a melee. The basis of comparison that is being used in long winded explanations boils down to not having a central HQ dishing out commands.
It’s quite easy to find this in the MA you just have to look for it. There are players that lead well and many of us will listen to them and push on with what ever it is we are doing. The by product of that is the inevitable map win and rotation.
The MA definitely qualifies as a useful tool for all the military academies. (You're not the only one amused.) ;)
Post by: JimmyD3 on February 04, 2018, 02:35:27 PM
It's not an assumption, you express that as your opinion by your answers to everyone's reply's not aligned with your fantasy about the Melee arena. You are projecting it by the construct of your responses.
Kind of like you and the GV Dar, huh Bustr? :rofl
Post by: bustr on February 04, 2018, 05:51:36 PM
Post by: bustr on February 04, 2018, 06:04:20 PM
Post by: Ciaphas on February 04, 2018, 06:06:24 PM
Haha, you’re kidding, right?
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Post by: Arlo on February 04, 2018, 06:11:28 PM
So it boils down to official events being organized that creates your distinction between the two.
Haha, you’re kidding, right?
Not just organized but structured to represent or resemble WWII (you know, an actual war).
It's a simple and straightforward concept. Does it really bother you? :D
Post by: Ciaphas on February 04, 2018, 06:14:03 PM
It bothered you enough to create a new thread to discuss it
So it has to resemble a past war to resemble a war? Good god dude, splitting hairs like a champ.
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Post by: Arlo on February 04, 2018, 06:19:53 PM
I can ask the same of you two guys.
It bothered you enough to create a new thread to discuss it
So it has to resemble a past war to resemble a war? Good god dude, splitting hairs like a champ.
Theoretically, it can also resemble a potential war. The MA doesn't resemble anything of the kind, past, present or future. That's my perspective. I created this thread to discuss perspectives. Have at it. I'm not gonna repetitively have a cow about yours (aka 'You guys are this or that' or 'OMG' or 'Good God'). ;)
Post by: Ciaphas on February 04, 2018, 06:20:12 PM
Just had an amusing thought, I bet a number of this audience are laboring under the misconception that I'm some young guy pointing fingers and my seniors. No, I'm in my 60's making fun of my contemporaries taking a kiddy game wayyyy to seriously. It's a game with grown men fixated that it has to be a war game or else. The else, hmmm, the universe ends, the mailman won't bring the mail anymore, the wife won't think you are hunk......it's just a game.
If it’s just a game what does it truly matter?
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Post by: Arlo on February 04, 2018, 06:22:23 PM
If it’s just a game what does it truly matter?
Two different things.
Perspective about AH MA. <----------> Perception of the value of someone else's opinion based on your age/experience versus their's.
Post by: Ciaphas on February 04, 2018, 06:25:37 PM
As far as it being different, how so?
You have a perspective and so do I.
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Post by: bustr on February 04, 2018, 06:37:04 PM
If it’s just a game what does it truly matter?
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It matters more to you because you are feeling like something important to you is being attacked while you have staked out a stand and a line in the sand on a hill that don't even exist.
I'm making fun of you because at our age, we should be above this nonsense. The MA is a kiddy game that has provided me 15 years of "fun" because of who well Hitech programmed it. WWiionline is a war game or so the producers say it try's to be. War Thunder is a kiddy combat game. IL2 is an open world sand box combat game just like the Melee arena. The Melee arena in 15 years has only been a keystone cops super mario brothers pandemonium cluster flop arena. And if we want to go back to the beginning, that is all Air Warrior ever was except for the special events just like to day in our Special Events Arena.
A very long time ago I was paid to play AW so I could do phone support for my company's sound card issues in AW. I got free Thrust Master equipment to test on the side. I've been playing AW since about 1988 and started supporting sound cards for that company around 1993.
The Melee arena is not a war game.
Post by: Arlo on February 04, 2018, 06:37:36 PM
Age and experience, we won’t get in to that.
As far as it being different, how so?
You have a perspective and so do I.
And they obviously differ (are different) over whether AH's MA represents an actual 'war game.' There's combat (air and ground), there's capturing flags/towns, there's sinking ships but 'a war game' is actually structured to have more of a semblance to an actual war and not just a few elements of such. The MA is more akin to a virtual sport (that allows you to pretend you're fighting a war if you can manage enough separation from reality).
P-51 buddy, there's a P-51 on your tail!
Count-down to a generalized categorization ('you guys') or an emotional exclamation ('Good God') in 3 .... 2 .... ;)
(This isn't going to cause a personal issue, in your mind, between us, is it?) :cheers:
Post by: bustr on February 04, 2018, 06:42:20 PM
Stop playing kappa. He was masterful at stirring the AH forum pot.
Post by: Ciaphas on February 04, 2018, 06:43:14 PM
With how condescending you are I suppose it’s not really all that big of a surprise.
Haha be above this nonsense?
As far as attacking something important to me, try again Dude. You profess to know so much about me. stop assuming.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one. Can’t debate with someone who reads or listens to respond.
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Post by: Ciaphas on February 04, 2018, 06:45:12 PM
Bustr in with the usual back sliding comments. Haha
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Post by: Ciaphas on February 04, 2018, 06:52:43 PM
The MA is very dynamic as far as aggression and defense. This mimics war more than a single campaign. So.. .
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Post by: Arlo on February 04, 2018, 06:58:38 PM
Feel free to visit my VF-17 website (link below) if you want to see how much I'm really into AH+WWII+VF-17. :D
Post by: Ciaphas on February 04, 2018, 07:00:17 PM
I take nothing personal. Debates are just two opposition views hashing it out. I like debating, it’s healthy and keeps your mind sharp.
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Post by: FLS on February 04, 2018, 09:14:12 PM
Post by: Arlo on February 04, 2018, 09:37:18 PM
Arlo is using his personal definition of war. There is no debate. :aok
War game. War has a definition all it's own. :D
Post by: Ciaphas on February 04, 2018, 11:34:56 PM
Arlo is using his personal definition of war. There is no debate. :aok
Lol
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Post by: JimmyC on February 06, 2018, 07:48:36 PM
AH is FUN...
Big difference