Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: oboe on April 07, 2018, 09:21:56 AM
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From p.237 of Bill Yenne's book, "Aces High", subtitled "The Heroic Saga of the Two Top-Scoring Aces of World War II", presented for your entertainment, analysis and comments:
"Bong next took a few shots at another Japanese fighter, but was hit in the radiator of his left engine. When he returned to Tacloban, Bong's crew chief discovered the round that punctured the Lightning's engine was not a 12.7 mm Japanese slug but an American .50-caliber round. Since no Americans had been shooting at Dick, he had apparently been flying so fast and maneuvering so much that he had overtaken and collided with one of his own bullets!"
Not sure I can imagine any real-world scenario where physics could make this possible. The rounds exit the muzzle traveling at the velocity of the aircraft + the muzzle velocity of the Browning machine gun, and the radiators on a P-38 are mounted well behind the gun muzzles, on the sides of the twin booms.
So no, just no.
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From p.237 of Bill Yenne's book, "Aces High", subtitled "The Heroic Saga of the Two Top-Scoring Aces of World War II", presented for your entertainment, analysis and comments:
Not sure I can imagine any real-world scenario where physics could make this possible. The rounds exit the muzzle traveling at the velocity of the aircraft + the muzzle velocity of the Browning machine gun, and the radiators on a P-38 are mounted well behind the gun muzzles, on the sides of the twin booms.
So no, just no.
Vertically.
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Vertically.
This. Happened to a Grumman Tiger in the 1950s:
"With that 0.5-G dive, Attridge had flown below the trajectory of his bullets and, 11 seconds later, flew through them as their flight paths met.."
http://www.aerofiles.com/tiger-tail.html
- oldman
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I think I need a diagram. I still can't picture it, given where the nose guns are on the centerline, and the radiators outboard in the booms?
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Bullets veer.... Planes maneuver...
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I can't see how this could of happened. Other Americans might not have been shooting AT Bong but that doesn't mean someone didn't hit him. We've all seen gun camera footage from WWII showing friendlies flying in front of friendlies that were shooting.
How do they know it was a .50 cal and not an enemy round. Did they recover the projectile?
The P-38 is subsonic, just can't see it overtaking his own supersonic bullet.
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Thanks for the link, Oldman, that helps me picture what might've happened. How unlikely though! And the P-38 had to have taken much longer to catch up to its own bullets, but it doesn't sound so impossible now.
The cynic in me assumed it must've been a cover story for a friendly fire incident they didn't want to deal with, especially involving their top ace.
<S> guys
EDIT: Colmbo the book said the crew chief recovered the round, but I don't know how they tell the difference between US and Japanese ammo. Color of the slug or shape maybe?
The .50-caliber bullets are supersonic after exiting the muzzle but like any ballistic projectiles start slowing from drag and dropping due to gravity immediately, so while still far fetched maybe its not as impossible as I first thought.
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Perhaps a “Golden BB” occurance. :huh
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Perhaps a “Golden BB” occurance. :huh
Yeah or a semi-squib round, etc..
The author’s description/implication leaves much to be desired, but...
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This. Happened to a Grumman Tiger in the 1950s:
"With that 0.5-G dive, Attridge had flown below the trajectory of his bullets and, 11 seconds later, flew through them as their flight paths met.."
http://www.aerofiles.com/tiger-tail.html
- oldman
BS, the bullets muzzle velocity is relative to that of the aircraft. The muzzle velocity of 50 cal is around 3000fps - roughly 2000 miles per hour. So the aircraft firing the bullet would have to exceed 2000 mph to get past the bullet it fired.
IF you fired almost vertically, then got your nose down and managed to intercept your bullets they would be falling at terminal velocity, around 300fps or less depending on the bullet. Unlikely to do anything to an engine.
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BS, the bullets muzzle velocity is relative to that of the aircraft. The muzzle velocity of 50 cal is around 3000fps - roughly 2000 miles per hour. So the aircraft firing the bullet would have to exceed 2000 mph to get past the bullet it fired.
IF you fired almost vertically, then got your nose down and managed to intercept your bullets they would be falling at terminal velocity, around 300fps or less depending on the bullet. Unlikely to do anything to an engine.
The instant that round leaves the barrel it is decelerating.
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The instant that round leaves the barrel it is decelerating.
And falling. While the aeroplane (for purposes of this exercise!) is maintaining a constant speed.
To my surprise, I couldn't readily locate a good ballistics chart for .50 BMG.
Might be easier to visualize if you think of the plane firing while climbing. Plane then levels off, while bullets travel in an arc above it. Given the right combination of angles, course and velocities, the bullets will come down on the plane.
- oldman
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Does this help?
(https://s20.postimg.org/cunjnwp65/M2balistic.jpg)
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Does this help?
Not quite what I was looking for. I was hoping to find the bullet's velocity at different ranges, to show how much it slows down. There are quite a few online ballistics calculators that will do that now, but I'm too lazy to calculate enough examples to illustrate the point. Plus I don't know the ballistic coefficient of the M2 ball round.
- oldman
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Since no matter how good a fighter jock he was, he couldn't see everything going on in the airspace around him, i'd suggest some other Allied fighter driver had a round go astray.
Douglas Bader's story was he collided with a 109 when he went down. Turns out he was shot down by a squadron mate who chopped off his tail with 20mm.
Johnny Godfrey in watching gun camera footage after he returned from his stint as a POW learned that it was his wingman who shot him down while strafing.
Friendly bullets don't exist :)
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And falling. While the aeroplane (for purposes of this exercise!) is maintaining a constant speed.
To my surprise, I couldn't readily locate a good ballistics chart for .50 BMG.
Might be easier to visualize if you think of the plane firing while climbing. Plane then levels off, while bullets travel in an arc above it. Given the right combination of angles, course and velocities, the bullets will come down on the plane.
- oldman
As I noted above the bullets coming down would be slow (ie no longer ballistic) and unlikely to damage an engine.
Sure the bullet is decelerating, but according the the table above it flies 3000 feet in 1.44 seconds. Assuming the P-38 is somehow going at 400mph, that's still only 586fps. Eveb if we decided to go full retard and took relative velocities away that P-38 is still going to be over 2000 feet behind the round at the 1.44 second mark, and still going more twice as fast as the P-38.
if by some miracle the P-38 got under the round in a dive and managed somehow to catchup to it, the round would be no longer ballistic, and the relative speed between the p-38 and round would negligible such that the 50 cal round would do NOTHING. For those who don't get this... imagine the P-38 has some how slipped in front of the 50 cal - and intersect it's arc, both are travelling at similar speeds in the same direction - so the 50 cal would have no destructive effect even if it did hit.
If by now you still don't get it, I have great deals on bridges.
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If by now you still don't get it, I have great deals on bridges.
*looks at shiny hook*
*swims away*
- oldman
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Would all of this be possible if the plane was on a treadmill?
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I find it far more likely he has some left over brass that found its way into his engine housing or was a friendly fire incident.
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As I noted above the bullets coming down would be slow (ie no longer ballistic) and unlikely to damage an engine.
Sure the bullet is decelerating, but according the the table above it flies 3000 feet in 1.44 seconds. Assuming the P-38 is somehow going at 400mph, that's still only 586fps. Eveb if we decided to go full retard and took relative velocities away that P-38 is still going to be over 2000 feet behind the round at the 1.44 second mark, and still going more twice as fast as the P-38.
if by some miracle the P-38 got under the round in a dive and managed somehow to catchup to it, the round would be no longer ballistic, and the relative speed between the p-38 and round would negligible such that the 50 cal round would do NOTHING. For those who don't get this... imagine the P-38 has some how slipped in front of the 50 cal - and intersect it's arc, both are travelling at similar speeds in the same direction - so the 50 cal would have no destructive effect even if it did hit.
If by now you still don't get it, I have great deals on bridges.
And then he flew through the vertical....
I find it far more likely he has some left over brass that found its way into his engine housing or was a friendly fire incident.
The latter seems most plausible.
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Would all of this be possible if the plane was on a treadmill?
Beat me to it. :aok
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Would all of this be possible if the plane was on a treadmill?
He could grip it by the husk!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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It was pining for the fjords
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This has become an interesting thread!
Now I don't know anything about ballistics and material thicknesses, but I understand that if the bullet has been shot upwards it is possible to get where it is coming back down. I'd like to learn the answer to these questions:
How thick/strong is the cover of the radiator of a P38?
Could a free falling bullet penetrate said radiator cover?
Some 20 years ago there was a true story in the local newspaper about a unfortunate hunter who fired his rifle to shoot a wood grouse sitting in a nearby tree, the distance being like 100 metres/yards or so i.e. a normal shooting distance. He missed the bird, instead the bullet killed the hunter's own brother who was sitting at a fire 2 kilometres from there. How likely is it to hit with a single bird size rifle bullet compared to a burst of .50's out of machine guns?
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The quoted text in the OP is emotive given the mention of high speed and manoeuvres and leads us to think of amazing feats not possible in reality. However, if we break it down simply then we can start to see how it is possible.
As I noted above the bullets coming down would be slow (ie no longer ballistic) and unlikely to damage an engine............
............................. ........If by now you still don't get it, I have great deals on bridges.
Vulcan, your thinking is wrong sir. As Vraciu has tried to point out, you are failing to fully understand the vertical aspect of the equation.
As I read it your contention is that even if the plane and bullet could meet they would have similar relative velocities and so damage is unlikely. That is a flawed conclusion.
If I throw a cricket ball or baseball horizontally and try to catch up with it I cannot. However I can easily throw it with the same velocity and easily catch it if I change the angle I throw it to be more vertical and I use speed and manoeuvres to try to catch it. When it comes down it has less energy than when I released it but it will damage me if it hits me. I challenge you to stand under that ball and refute my statement.
Therefore it is equally possible to fire a bullet from an aircraft at a certain angle and have that same plane intersect the bullet coming down. I will leave you to do the math but I am certain that bullect could inflict damage.
If you do not get that I have a great deal on bridge repair kits. Let me know the delivery address.
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Would all of this be possible if the plane was on a treadmill?
No, as others have pointed out, there must be a vertical element for this to work out. Hence, the need for an escalator rather than a treadmill. Logic man.. logic.
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Or it was a long distant stray from a friendly in another fight out of sight near by somewhere.
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If Dude did smoke his own engine with one of his rounds he is probably the most unlucky dude in the world considering bullet speed, trajectory and the degradation of the rounds impact due to friction constantly slowing the round.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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All of this would be possible if the plane was on a treadmill.
Fixed.
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The quoted text in the OP is emotive given the mention of high speed and manoeuvres and leads us to think of amazing feats not possible in reality. However, if we break it down simply then we can start to see how it is possible.
Vulcan, your thinking is wrong sir. As Vraciu has tried to point out, you are failing to fully understand the vertical aspect of the equation.
As I read it your contention is that even if the plane and bullet could meet they would have similar relative velocities and so damage is unlikely. That is a flawed conclusion.
If I throw a cricket ball or baseball horizontally and try to catch up with it I cannot. However I can easily throw it with the same velocity and easily catch it if I change the angle I throw it to be more vertical and I use speed and manoeuvres to try to catch it. When it comes down it has less energy than when I released it but it will damage me if it hits me. I challenge you to stand under that ball and refute my statement.
Therefore it is equally possible to fire a bullet from an aircraft at a certain angle and have that same plane intersect the bullet coming down. I will leave you to do the math but I am certain that bullect could inflict damage.
If you do not get that I have a great deal on bridge repair kits. Let me know the delivery address.
Nope. The bullet must be intercepted while it is still ballistic and able to do damage. If you look at the ballistic table linked above even at 3000 feet the 50 cal drop is only 28 feet vertically. And at 3000 feet the bullet speed drops to ~1000fps, and relative to the P-38 around 500fps. I would wage in any scenario where the bullet intersects the plane again it has to go non-ballistic and dropping at terminal velocity only.
You keep ignoring the fact the bullet has to do damage when it hits, thus still needs be travelling fast relative to the P-38. (ie your cricket ball is not going to damage a P38)
Now, about the bridge you want to buy from me.
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Birds aren't ballistic, nor are they made of metal, and they can ruin your day if they hit an engine. What if circumstances conspired (scarily unlikely circumstances, like winning the powerball while being struck by lightning unlikely, but we're already in that realm) such that he was pulling up again after the bullet went up, then came down, and he happened to be closing with the bullet?
Wiley.
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Nope. The bullet must be intercepted while it is still ballistic and able to do damage. If you look at the ballistic table linked above even at 3000 feet the 50 cal drop is only 28 feet vertically. And at 3000 feet the bullet speed drops to ~1000fps, and relative to the P-38 around 500fps. I would wage in any scenario where the bullet intersects the plane again it has to go non-ballistic and dropping at terminal velocity only.
You keep ignoring the fact the bullet has to do damage when it hits, thus still needs be travelling fast relative to the P-38. (ie your cricket ball is not going to damage a P38)
Now, about the bridge you want to buy from me.
Ever poked around a radiator much
Doesn't take a lot to jam a hole through it.
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So Vulcan, if the bullet was just hanging there in mid air and the P38 was doing 350 MPH and the 2 met your summary is that it could do no damage?
Not sure I would want to walk across any bridge bearing your name.
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Going up the escalator would substantially increase to impact velocity.
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What would be the possibility of a misfire/slug leaving the aircraft at a severely reduced velocity and ultimately ending up in the engine to cause the damage
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So Vulcan, if the bullet was just hanging there in mid air and the P38 was doing 350 MPH and the 2 met your summary is that it could do no damage?
Not sure I would want to walk across any bridge bearing your name.
Well if you going to change the physical laws of the universe and have bullets randomly hovering in front of aircraft I guess it could happen... at terminal velocity at 50 cal round is going to have about 110-120 foot/pounds of energy - close to a subsonic 22lr but being a bigger round it would depend how it hit (ie side on or pointy end on).
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What would be the possibility of a misfire/slug leaving the aircraft at a severely reduced velocity and ultimately ending up in the engine to cause the damage
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Yeah or a semi-squib round, etc..
The author’s description/implication leaves much to be desired, but...
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Well here is the damage a subsonic 2x4 can do:https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/gifs/1992andrew8.gif (https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/gifs/1992andrew8.gif)
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Well here is the damage a subsonic 2x4 can do:https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/gifs/1992andrew8.gif (https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/gifs/1992andrew8.gif)
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I personally love Bill Yenne and have read many of his books. Oddly enough, my favorite of his is his military biography of Alexander. He is a good researcher.
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Theoretically possible, but beyond incredibly unlikely. Like into the "guy accidentally drops his old black powder carbine and it discharges and hits bullseye 1200m away".
Yeah, it's possible, sure. But you're going to wait years before you see it again.