Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Vulcan on September 07, 2001, 11:33:00 PM
-
Our mission wasn't even marginal - it was way off the ball.
If we had have made it to our assigned target it would have been gliding.
The point here is 'just do what you feel like if you can't make your target'. This is TOD. Its supposed to be planned, historical etc. If I wanted to 'use my iniative to hit what I feel like' - I'd stick to the MA. And, I don't know who planned our mission, it was planned very very badly.
I'd also like the CMs to check what the fuel multiplier was, our Hellcats (not a secret, already pointed out in another thread) barely covered 150miles before running dry.
p.s. <S> to Mrpluto for doing the best he could after being dropped no less than chin deep in brown sticky crap.
-
I think the stink was over making this thing public. You guys just don't know the hard work these guys on the multiframe team do, and when someone gets ticked and airs laundry in public, well, it just gets nasty. It's not like they're getting paid a dime to do this thing, or like they want to see you guys fail, people make mistakes.
My squads missions haven't been cakewalks. We were assigned to sink your CV with JU88's, in a torpedo run :eek:. We lost a couple of pilots, but your CV and cruiser are sitting on the bottom of the bay. ;)
Anyways, too bad you guys didn't show up. The allies really got reemed. Hope Rip takes a deep breath and comes back. He's a good guy from what I hear, hope it all gets worked out...
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]
-
I would just absolutly love for Rip and Vulcan to plan, organise and execute the next tod for us. Ive yet to participate in any event that ran perfectly smooth with no glitches. I bet they could pull it off for us.
-
yep, we sure missed having all the MAG33 bubbas in there tonight. Japs outnumbered US pretty badly. I hope all involved can find a more constructive way of dealing with mission problems ahead of time.
Allies are supposed to "Clear the Philippines" when it's all said and done, but if the rest of the frames go like this, we Japanese may be invading California very soon!! :D
--------------------
Sancho
XO 63rd Sentai, IJAAF
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: Sancho ]
-
Speaking for myself, I'd agree I'm no gun at scenario/mission building (in fact it'd be fair to say I suck). But when it comes to Ripsnort his attention to detail in missions etc is a long way above average and I know he'd do a damn good job.
Fair enough, the scenario guys do a steep job and a lot of us get a lot of fun out of their hard work. However, this run for Mag-33 was not even "a whoops it was marginal" (like we had one in Hostile Shores where most of us were 20 miles short of the CV - no complaints there, we missed by a whisker). But this was so far out of the ballpark you yanks would've been playing cricket.
There is a difference between a "glitch" and a complete clusterf**k you know.
Hopefully we will learn from this and move on.
Originally posted by rosco-:
I would just absolutly love for Rip and Vulcan to plan, organise and execute the next tod for us. Ive yet to participate in any event that ran perfectly smooth with no glitches. I bet they could pull it off for us.
-
Originally posted by hblair:
Anyways, too bad you guys didn't show up
(See Below)
(http://www.btinternet.com/~snaffers/bits/tod.jpg)
Just to point out 8 us us did show which is not a bad turnout considering we knew it was a one way trip (Or perhaps not even that).
I'm not even going to start to get involved in the "Rattles being thrown out of the pram" events leading up to this. The MAG formation stuck close together during the whole flight and continued on towards the target way after the point of no return. It was only when it became apparent that some if not all would not even reach the primary target that a secondary target was selected. Even then only about 75% of us made it I believe.
For my part I would like clarification on the Ditch/Death rulings on this. I hit the BH with both bombs, The next pilot through reports the BH down, but during the climbout lost most of one wing and took an engine oil hit from the ack. We had a report that CV15 had been sunk so I trimmed as best I could and headed in the general direction of friendly shores. the fuel ran out before the oil and I ditched West of P34. Bhorse also ditched very close by and between us we built a small boat from the remains of out Hellcats and made sails from our chutes, we then headed for home under the stiff southerly breeze and were picked up in friendly waters by a Catalina several hours later. :)
Did I die? was our mission a success? Forgive me if the answers are in the rules somewhere but I cannot find clarification.
Despite it all I was great flying with the brothers, excellent Job MRPLUTO, Good leadership under difficult conditions <S> guys, looking forward to flying with you all next time.
TTFN
snafu
-
A big <S> to the pilots that flew escort for the 416RCAF. We managed to reach and hit our target due to some hard flying and sacrifice. Another big <S> to the gunners that added to the success of our mission.
So sorry, IJN. Looks like a port has gone missing.
Thank F/L Buzzbe for a well planned mission in the face of tough odds <S>
Also, thank you to all the U.S. squads that gave this frame their maximum effort against very tough odds, low fuel and impossible distances. Telling you to use your initiative was really all I could do as your C/O when we were faced with the situation at hand. You done good <S>
"War is hell"
-
Out of pure interest, where did you guys take off, and where was your primary target?
-
Hola,
416 RCAF "The Lynx" launched from TG18 North of Mindanao.
Due to excellent Escort (Yeager, Beemer, Voss and crew, many thanks) we reached our Target (Port on East side of Mindanao) with minor contact and all Avenger's intact on our bomb run.
Things went bad in a hurry, Holder had a mechanical failure during this phase and disco'd. Our escort had the Zeke's tied up, but for some reason twelve Zeke's were camping over the target.
It got messy at this point. We did hit the target and destroy the dock, but Firewall and myself went down due to fighters over the Port ( I was 3 seconds from pickling bomb's when hit).
Arena values were off, 62 IJN to 36 Allied. If we had parity, it would have been much better contested.
Again, to all the folk's with Yeager who coordinated Escort a big thanks from "The Lynx".
Originally posted by hblair:
Out of pure interest, where did you guys take off, and where was your primary target?
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: Buzzbe ]
-
Originally posted by Buzzbe:
Hola,
416 RCAF "The Lynx" launched from TG18 North of Mindanao.
Due to excellent Escort (Yeager, Beemer, Voss and crew, many thanks) we reached our Target (Port on East side of Mindanao) with minor contact and all Avenger's intact on our bomb run.
Things went bad in a hurry, Holder had a mechanical failure during this phase and disco'd. Our escort had the Zeke's tied up, but for some reason twelve Zeke's were camping over the target.
It got messy at this point. We did hit the target and destroy the dock, but Firewall and myself went down due to fighters over the Port ( I was 3 seconds from pickling bomb's when hit).
Arena values were off, 62 IJN to 36 Allied. If we had parity, it would have been much better contested.
Again, to all the folk's with Yeager who coordinated Escort a big thanks from "The Lynx".
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: Buzzbe ]
were they all zekes or did you you see some KI61's? I dont know if it was your group but I had a gruop of 4 KI61's that killed 3 tbm's and 1 corsair.
-
Originally posted by hblair:
Out of pure interest, where did you guys take off, and where was your primary target?
CV15 to A33
-
Ammo, there were only 4 TBMs that launched, I discoed 2 minutes from the port, so your group nailed the rest of 416 RCAF.
Please see my posts elsewhere (Clearing the Air) about the design of this frame. Hening as frame CO sent out what he received to the rest of us in 416 RCAF to discuss it. But there wasn't much to discuss, it was already planned. I would rather have been given a list of targets and been left to come up with a plan on our own.
I ain't whining here, 416 RCAF and the Corsairs of our escort group had a tough mission, but it was do-able. I don't mind losing aircraft because we were intercepted by enemies. Losing aircraft because you run out of fuel on the way to the target isn't good. Please, for future ToDs let the frame COs come up with the design.
-
Originally posted by -ammo-:
were they all zekes or did you you see some KI61's? I dont know if it was your group but I had a gruop of 4 KI61's that killed 3 tbm's and 1 corsair.
I only saw Zeke's, but Hening reported the Ki-61 kill.
It's very possible I just did not see them (Ki-61's), if the intercept happened at any other point it might have been different. I had just jumped to Aiming Position when I heard the Pings and I did not make it back to the Pilot position.
Hening was screaming like a girl ;) on the radio about Zeke's all over the place, should have listened to him.
-
Originally posted by -ammo-:
were they all zekes or did you you see some KI61's? I dont know if it was your group but I had a gruop of 4 KI61's that killed 3 tbm's and 1 corsair.
Hmm,
We lost one Avenger to a Disco, two to fighters and one landed the mission.
This all happened at P55.
-
If the disco was during combat, the FE view of a disco is an explosion, so would explain the difference.
-
Originally posted by -ammo-:
were they all zekes or did you you see some KI61's? I dont know if it was your group but I had a gruop of 4 KI61's that killed 3 tbm's and 1 corsair.
Upon initial contact with the Ki's we spotted only three aircraft. Intercepting them was fairly smooth, though they did get some rounds through to our charges. I was killing the last of the three when I heard, "There's only one left, Voss" and then cut the Ki in half. That's when I looked behind and saw the fourth Ki about to open fire. I never heard the pings, but I saw the sheep! :)
Unfortunately, SkyKing disco'd just as the Ki's were coming into the area. Had he still been online I don't think you would have gotten two TBM's, but you never know!
Anyway, great scenario! The 13th is looking forward to more engagements of this sort. Well done everyone!
:cool:
-
Originally posted by Fatty:
If the disco was during combat, the FE view of a disco is an explosion, so would explain the difference.
Except, the disco of the TBM occured long before the Ki's came into range. I noted after the second wave of Zeke's that we were down to three charges, and was trying to sort out exactly what got through to even get a shot at them. Unfortunately, the one guy in the TBM flight I had on private was the lost flight.
We didn't have too much time to concern ourselves with that, though, as the Ki's were on us immediately after.
I have missed this sort of special event ever since AW DOS. Thank you CM's, and HTC for bringing that sensation back!
:cool:
-
I just wanted to pipe in and say I heard that it took over 4 hours to set up the TOD and that the person who did it was actually covering for the CM who was originally slated to do it. There will probably always be a few mistakes, but these guys are doing a GREAT job and I appreciate all their efforts and the time they volunteer to set this up for all of us. I had no idea it took over 4 hours for just the tasks on Friday to be completed not counting the other things they deal with prior to Friday.
Thanks to the CMs. You are making my Fridays the best time in AH for me.
-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels
-
Sorry to do this, but I just looked at a film, and it appears that CV13 was pretty darn close to 33. A big dar bar comes up in a sector offshore the southernmost part of the island.
From my quick-and-dirty experiment (Hawgs with 2x1000lbers, full internal fuel, climb to 10k, cruise at 30 MAP =225MPH), the F4U-1D should have more than enough range to hit the target.
What happened? Did you guys take off somewhere else (I agree it's not quite possible to do it from the far Western edge of the map)? Did you climb too high? (fuel multipliers affect how much you can effectively climb enroute) Did you lower your prop RPM?
-
Dinger... they sure don't look like F4U's to me... F6F's.. and it was 15 to 33
SKurj
-
Originally posted by Zippatuh:
CV15 to A33
I think he meant in what sector did CV15 launch you from. If it was way down in the SW corner of the map, yeah, it was a one way flight. We sank both the Carrier and the Cruiser. :D
-
Dinger, we launched in the 10.5 sector with Hellkitties, 100% fuel, 2 x 1000lb'ers. Headed ENE to A41, at A41 we realized that there was little chance we'd actually make to A33. So we turned NW thinking we'd hit the HQ, until someone realized the HQ was in fact the 'neutral country'. So we diverted W to A36. At about A36 some of us were real low on gas, those that survived A36 only made it as far as P34 roughly.
So draw an arc centered on A41 around, notice how it doesn't make it to A33? I think at best we would have just made P39.
After we launced the CV was 'warped' to the 7.7 cross (if I remember rightly).
So first, we could never had made it to the target, second, there was no way we would make it home.
Some of us who hit 36 thought f**k it and just went suicidal, hitting as much as we could. To top things off CV15 was sunk, no CAP apparently :(
A marginal mission I can take the challenge. But even after this run was 'fixed' (ie the cv 'warped' into 10.5 to launch us) as per postings in rips thread we still didn't stand a chance. I also believe the fuel multiplier was not changed as was promised, that it was still either 1.5x or possibly 2.0x.
-
haha im glad the real USN didnt have whiners like u guys. didnt you ever hear the story of the guys who took off at dusk to strike the carriers fleeing from the battle of the phillipine sea knowing they werent gonna have enough gas and knowing that if some how they made it they would have to trap at night? they were gambling with their *real* lives but i never heard one of them in their interviews critisize their commanders..
good think the virtual IJN/IJAAF has a bit more in the way of balls! kamikaze! ;)
-
You guys make alotta nice posts about pilots in the war going on missions that they may not have enough fuel to return from, but none of you recite missions where pilots obediently flew missions where the aircraft couldn't even reach the target....
SKurj
-
Vulcan,
What was your cruising altitude and your cruising manifold pressure?
-
Was there a rule that you HAD to take bombs? I tried it offline taking 100% + dt and rockets. The dt was enough to make it to 33 from the 10,5 sector, and making it back to 6,6,9 on internal fuel is certainly doable. Landing a21 would be a stretch but refueling at one of the closer friendly bases would have been no problem.
-
[edit]Read my next post for offline test result[/edit]
Guys, there's such a thing as finesse here. The formula for success isn't always WEP to 35,000ft then cruise around at 100% throttle. This was never done in real life. I would never cruise a flight of heavy fighters much above 18-20,000 ft. It's just nuts, and it sure aint historical.
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]
-
HB we didn't take rockets, we leveled at 25k, used from 40-55 manifold and didn't wep all over the place.
So the question remains, what was the fuel modifier set at?
Regurge our target was hangars, rockets don't make much of a dent in those.
Zig pull your head in. Do you think I enjoy taking an hour out of my Saturday afternoon on a hopeless mission? I'll whine all I like.
-
It takes 18 rockets to kill a hangar. A full load of ammo from f6f guns will do it too. There's 7 hangars at 33. I count 6 squadmates in the above screenshot, which would have been enough for all the hangars.
Not trying to start a flamefest here, but that mission was doable.
-
Ok, with a loadout like you guys had vulcan (F6F-5, with 2X1000 bombs, no rockets, full internal fuel, rolling from 10.5 sector with 1.5 arena fuel burn rate like in the TOD), I made it to A33, bombed, turned west, made it to just short of A5 when I ran out of fuel and ditched. Could have landed at A3 (wasn't it Allied base in TOD?) I cruised at 10,000ft at 40 psi.
If I'd just had rockets and drop tanks like regurge suggested, it would have been a piece of cake.
In other words, you guys caused your own deaths. How in the world you fellas couldn't even make it to A33 is beyond me. :eek: Just glad you're flying allied! :D
-
Thoughts?, comments?
-
Has anyone confirmed the fuel modifier setting yet?
HB we didn't fly on WEP, we cruised. Makes me wonder. No A3 wasn't allied.
Rockets and DT's? Regurge that would be nice if the defences had been dropped already.
Still no confirmation on the fuel modifier? Is there anyway to find out from film?
-
Comments by certain individuals need no reply, so I removed them.
Thanks banana and I apologize if any remarks I have made insulted you, or anyone else, personally.
Zippatuh
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Zippatuh ]
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Zippatuh ]
-
The fuel modifier was set at 1.5.
This whole thing is my fault, Vulcan, so I appologize to you and everyone else who ran out of fuel. The buck stops with me, I take full responsibilty. I'll do my best to make certain this doesn't happen again.
-
I think thats all we're after.
This whole thing has been inflamed by the 'take-it-like-men' corner.
BTW I won't be up this round NOT because of this issue but because I'm going skiing with some lovely Compaq people :)
Originally posted by banana:
I'll do my best to make certain this doesn't happen again.
-
I'm sorry you guys ended up in that situation. Even at 1.5 fuel multiplier, we should still be able to get 500 miles or so with bombs at best cruise speed. But my tests are giving short ranges like you guys experienced. I think there might be a bug in the Hellcat fuel tank switching. I will look into it some more this weekend.
-
Just had to chime in here, Hblair...who in their right mind flies at 10k alt deep in enemy territory with no escort? :)
-
And, for those calling the mission 'doable'..consider this:
Originally the mission was to launch from 6.6 sector. Then some dummy squeaked about it (me), the result was the CV was moved during the actual scenario, without MAG-33 leader MrPluto knowing what fuel, what load out could carry him how far, how fast, since he had no idea of the take off point of the CV. Now, I ask you, how many WW2 vets had missions where they had no idea where they would launch from until 15 min. before they climbed in the cockpit? I'll answer it for you, 0.
Nice things to know prior to a mission is where you will launch from, how much fuel it takes to get there, once you know these parameters, you can then plan the mission and ordnance accordingly, MAG-33 FL was missing this important information
[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Just had to chime in here, Hblair...who in their right mind flies at 10k alt deep in enemy territory with no escort? :)
I would, except one change, I would turn 3 of the hellcats into sweeping escorts, give them a drop tank and no ordinance, let them WEP ahead of the jabo mission to about 18k, if they encounter baddies they can tangle with 'em and pull the fight to the deck. 10,000 ft is a very practical altitude considering the jabo's are carrying the heavy ordinance. 25,000ft for bomb laden fighters is bologna, unfortunately your guys found out the hard way. Not trying to sound smart, but I've been flying mostly axis in these aces high events for two years, every time I encounter allies they are higher than me, and sometimes I'd be at 28,000 ft. I finally decided that I'd let the alt monkeys be alt monkeys, I'd fly my own brand of mission, it seems to be paying off too.
BTW, whenever my squad has been assigned JU88's in the TOD's, we came in at an altitude of about 100ft, hasn't failed us yet. It may some day, but not yet.
-
Originally posted by hblair:
I would, except one change, I would turn 3 of the hellcats into sweeping escorts, give them a drop tank and no ordinance, let them WEP ahead of the jabo mission to about 18k, if they encounter baddies they can tangle with 'em and pull the fight to the deck. 10,000 ft is a very practical altitude considering the jabo's are carrying the heavy ordinance. 25,000ft for bomb laden fighters is bologna, unfortunately your guys found out the hard way. Not trying to sound smart, but I've been flying mostly axis in these aces high events for two years, every time I encounter allies they are higher than me, and sometimes I'd be at 28,000 ft. I finally decided that I'd let the alt monkeys be alt monkeys, I'd fly my own brand of mission, it seems to be paying off too.
BTW, whenever my squad has been assigned JU88's in the TOD's, we came in at an altitude of about 100ft, hasn't failed us yet. It may some day, but not yet.
Sounds like a mission I would put together, however you fail to see the fact that we had 7 hangs to destroy, with 3 escort that leaves us short for ordnance on target.
-
I might add, that anytime I'm flying barcap, and see high/low cons, I know automatically what the objective of the low group is...if they all come in at high alt, then, as defending BARCAP, I don't know what their mission objective is...attacking a lower group of heavy cons is easy, once you get past the escort (faking the HO) you simply dive, take out the heavy fighters in one pass, and extend home. Mission over for the guys with 10k alt. ;)
You see, there is no one answer..especially when you have no idea what the distance to target is until right before the frame begins, as in MrPluto and MAG-33's case.
[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
-
Well Rip, by your logic Ki-61s escorting Ju-88s and intercepted by a superior number of F4Us would never make it. But go read the AARs.
I agree you were dealt a crappy hand. The original mission left no chance to survive. The mission as excecuted was very difficult at best, and only if you picked the right loadout with no time to plan.
The fact is, there were a couple of fuel/ordinance combinations that would have gotten you to the target with the ability to do some damage and, with a bit of luck, rtb. But you had to believe that maybe you could do it without bombs, and without 25k of alt.
C'mon guys, have some faith in yourselves :)
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Sounds like a mission I would put together, however you fail to see the fact that we had 7 hangs to destroy, with 3 escort that leaves us short for ordnance on target.
Then why not just blow up how ever many hangars you can. There are 3 frames in the TOD. What you miss in one frame you can go back and hit next time. Bombing missions aren't always 100% successful. Knocking out 50% of Japanese hangars at an airfield will definitely be noticed by our ground crews. ;)
-
Well, to be honest, all this discussion is definately easier with hindsite, since hindsite is always 20/20. ;) Guess I'm not used to seeing MAG_33 not fulfil their goals, but in this case, it was not their fault since A) they didn't know where they would be launching from...and B) Their CO was alittle disgruntled at the mission planning. Pluto did the best he could considering the hand he was dealt...and I doubt anyone would have done better.
[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]