Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Vraciu on May 18, 2018, 11:29:15 PM

Title: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on May 18, 2018, 11:29:15 PM
Do I see the following or am I crazy?

- Yellow theater band under wing.
- Yellow or red gear door.
- Yellow or red main wheel (see red anti-glare demarcation stripe).
- Lack of outboard yellow and black wing bands.

(http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/rfc/FRE_008687.jpg)
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Devil 505 on May 18, 2018, 11:59:37 PM
looks like yellow stripe under the wing, outlined in black with red wheel. Gear door may be yellow or metal.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: JOACH1M on May 19, 2018, 12:01:48 AM
I see red wheel with red door. Yellow band under wing
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on May 19, 2018, 09:36:35 AM
Thank you, gents.   :salute

Lyric?   Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Greebo on May 19, 2018, 10:22:16 AM
I'd say black-bordered yellow bands under the wing and red gear doors and wheels, with the paint wearing off the gear doors a bit. Also the anti-glare panel looks to have a thin yellow or red border. Something like 8Y or BY seems to written within the "5" on the vertical stab.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on May 19, 2018, 10:36:32 AM
I'd say black-bordered yellow bands under the wing and red gear doors and wheels, with the paint wearing off the gear doors a bit. Also the anti-glare panel looks to have a thin yellow or red border. Something like 8Y or BY seems to written within the "5" on the vertical stab.

Thanks.  I have seen those black bordered stripes on drawings.  I need to dig up some others with it to get a feel for them.  Would they be the same on top?

The cowl stripe is rendered red in profiles—not that they can be trusted—and the rudder letters seem to be BY.

Such an odd duck of a scheme. 

I will dig through “SPITFIRES AND YELLOW TAIL MUSTANGS” to see if it has any helpful photos.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: horble on May 19, 2018, 11:19:07 AM
It's all various shades of grey to me.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on May 19, 2018, 12:06:49 PM
It's all various shades of grey to me.

That's just terble.    :rofl
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: lyric1 on May 19, 2018, 01:18:25 PM
Bare metal gear doors covered in dirt the higher up the door you go the less dirt there is.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on May 19, 2018, 01:48:56 PM
Bare metal gear doors covered in dirt the higher up the door you go the less dirt there is.

So that is not paint overspray/erosion or dirt over paint?   The 52nd had a number of airplanes with painted gear doors, fwiw.   

Dang, I wish that other P-51 wasn't cut off just this side of the mains.  "Spitfires and Yellow Tail Mustangs" doesn't have a single photo of this plane--I'm amazed at that oversight, frankly.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: bustr on May 31, 2018, 10:33:18 AM
If you look at the tires you can see this plane rolled trough a mud puddle. Then look at the gear door once again and you can see the mud splash on it.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on May 31, 2018, 10:38:00 AM
If you look at the tires you can see this plane rolled trough a mud puddle. Then look at the gear door once again and you can see the mud splash on it.

I agree there.  But I think the door is also yellow.   Yellow with a mud splash.  What do you think?
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Mister Fork on May 31, 2018, 11:40:02 AM
Here is a D variant in a simliar paint scheme...not sure if it'll help

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tYD_HH7BkJI/VHyFbL5gWHI/AAAAAAABd40/6_tGbTxOfxs/s1600/P-51_color.jpg)
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Mister Fork on May 31, 2018, 11:46:04 AM
And here a model from modeller P.k. from imodelers.com (http://imodeler.com/2015/02/tamiya-148-n-a-p-51c-mustang-52fg-15af-italy-1944-history-of-b-24h-liberator/) (that group is nuts about historical accuracy than we are...)

(http://imodeler.com/uploads/2015/02/mustang-c-15fg-spit-vb-uh-1-010-1024x529.jpg?10641)
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on May 31, 2018, 11:48:58 AM
I still do not see painted wingtips in that photo...   :headscratch:
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Mister Fork on May 31, 2018, 11:56:10 AM
Zoom in on the B%W image about 500 X - you will notice there is a slight discoloration on the wingtip around 3-4 in and it returns to normal metal color.  I'm guessing it's all yellow like the tail?

(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=393075.0;attach=29801)
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on May 31, 2018, 12:49:42 PM
Maybe.  Certainly not to the extent of the depictions in the model and some profiles of the plane. 
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: lyric1 on June 01, 2018, 11:07:05 AM
Maybe.  Certainly not to the extent of the depictions in the model and some profiles of the plane.

Inclined to say yellow wingtips comparing the tips to the yellow tail. Most certainly no black stripe like the model.

My.

(https://i.imgur.com/TRE7JJe.jpg)

Worth. :)
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on June 01, 2018, 12:16:01 PM
 :rofl :cheers:
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on June 01, 2018, 12:17:17 PM
Yellow tips as in the fairings?
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: lyric1 on June 01, 2018, 12:26:32 PM
Yellow tips as in the fairings?

Like the model as pointed out by Mister Fork in the cropped image.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Krusty on June 01, 2018, 12:33:44 PM
Bare metal gear doors covered in dirt the higher up the door you go the less dirt there is.

I can't believe you were the first to say this. Spot on.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on June 01, 2018, 02:35:50 PM
I can't believe you were the first to say this. Spot on.

I recognized the possibility of dirt from the jump.  But underneath that is yellow paint. 
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Ciaphas on June 01, 2018, 02:46:36 PM
This may help a bit

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180601/ff43971acef58a5d692028ded61126bd.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180601/fa9bf8ce17a487803c9013e668abd1aa.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on June 01, 2018, 02:49:03 PM
This may help a bit

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180601/ff43971acef58a5d692028ded61126bd.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180601/fa9bf8ce17a487803c9013e668abd1aa.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is closer than the model.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Ciaphas on June 01, 2018, 02:54:03 PM
I know this isn’t the Right model but it’s a good indicator as to the paint scheme that you will need to use.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180601/5f553c83e5b2a2f555ce96d2f320e9bb.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on June 01, 2018, 04:03:27 PM
I know this isn’t the Right model but it’s a good indicator as to the paint scheme that you will need to use.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180601/5f553c83e5b2a2f555ce96d2f320e9bb.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not really.  52nd FG schemes vary WIDELY.   Marie is the late-war version with the (bordered) all-yellow tail, yellow theater bands, and outer wing bands (with borders).   

VF*5 is a combination of the early (bordered) inner bands with the late (bordered) all-yellow tail.   I still have no clue what the wingtips are.   I guess yellow is as good as anything—though Wee Willie has the (non-bordered) yellow tail and inner bands (non-bordered) only. 
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Ciaphas on June 01, 2018, 04:32:36 PM
here is some more information for you. I would be interested as to when they added the wingtip paint. Perhaps the photo in question was prior to the tip paint addition or maybe wing tip MX was performed and this photo was snapped prior to paint.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180601/872267d63e2da74f0c2eb15854a8d6a1.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on June 01, 2018, 05:01:24 PM
here is some more information for you. I would be interested as to when they added the wingtip paint. Perhaps the photo in question was prior to the tip paint addition or maybe wing tip MX was performed and this photo was snapped prior to paint.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180601/872267d63e2da74f0c2eb15854a8d6a1.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The photo caption says Spring 1945.

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/9980

I’m guessing the wingtip paint is similar to this one.  No borders.  Also Spring 1945.

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/9962

(http://www.americanairmuseum.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/freeman/media-418163.jpg?itok=c46As2F8)

The question THEN becomes...  Were the wingtips scrubbed of paint, hence the shine?  WEE WILLIE has the non-bordered all-yellow tail and no outer wing bands.   Could both these VF P-51s be the same in that regard?


http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/bryguyw/media/563807_345790782122897_2039809715_n_zpseb11f8ee.jpg.html
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Ciaphas on June 01, 2018, 06:37:38 PM
If you look at the original picture you posted, the wingtip paint is different than the wing paint. The lighting and quality of the photo make it hard to see but the difference is there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: bustr on June 01, 2018, 06:41:06 PM
I still do not see painted wingtips in that photo...   :headscratch:

You can see it if you don't try to imagine yellow but instead look at the mottled gray effect to the tail. Then look at the wind tip again and you see the same mottled gray effect. That color screen shot of that model showing the yellow tips is a clue to compare the representation of yellow by the black and white photo.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on June 01, 2018, 06:58:39 PM
You can see it if you don't try to imagine yellow but instead look at the mottled gray effect to the tail. Then look at the wind tip again and you see the same mottled gray effect. That color screen shot of that model showing the yellow tips is a clue to compare the representation of yellow by the black and white photo.

I think I can buy that. 
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on June 01, 2018, 06:59:27 PM
If you look at the original picture you posted, the wingtip paint is different than the wing paint. The lighting and quality of the photo make it hard to see but the difference is there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sounds good to me. 
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on June 06, 2018, 03:23:12 PM
This is a rough look at where I'm going with the paint...

(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=393075.0;attach=29834)
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Guppy35 on June 06, 2018, 03:55:22 PM
Keep in mind that the theater bands and red nose were painted at the depot before delivery to the Groups.  They were not outlined in black.  It was standard for all the groups to have red noses and yellow ID bands.

(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/MTOMarkings.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/MTOMarkings.jpg.html)

This is an image from the depot where they were assembling the Mustangs to get them ready for the Groups.  Note the placement of the bands on these 51Cs, as well as the already painted nose.  Any other Group markings were done once they arrived at that Group.  So the yellow tails of the 52nd, the striped of the 31st the checkerboards of the 35th or the red tails of the 33nd were all done once they became operational.  So the variety you'll see is in the group markings, but not the theater markings.

(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/MTOBands.jpg) (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/MTOBands.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on June 06, 2018, 05:35:30 PM
Keep in mind that the theater bands and red nose were painted at the depot before delivery to the Groups. They were not outlined in black.  It was standard for all the groups to have red noses and yellow ID bands.

http://s152.photobucket.com/user/guppy35/media/MTOMarkings.jpg.htm


This is an image from the depot where they were assembling the Mustangs to get them ready for the Groups.  Note the placement of the bands on these 51Cs, as well as the already painted nose.  Any other Group markings were done once they arrived at that Group.  So the yellow tails of the 52nd, the striped of the 31st the checkerboards of the 35th or the red tails of the 33nd were all done once they became operational.  So the variety you'll see is in the group markings, but not the theater markings.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/MTOBands.jpg[/img][/URL]

Actually, we have cases where they were outlined in black and others were even outlined in WHITE.

Variations I’ve seen:

- Inner bands outlined in black (like this one apparently).
- Outer bands outlined in black (like Jo-Baby, 4FS, WD*D).
- Inner and outer bands outlined in white (Abdul’s Baby, 4FS, WD*A).
- Non-outlined inner and outer bands (5FS, VF*D).
- Non-outlined outer bands only with nothing inboard (Meg X, 4FS, WD*L).
- Non-outlined inner bands only with nothing outboard (like Wee Willie, 2FS, QP*C). 

This airplane has a bunch of odd stuff about it all in one place.    The bands are outboard of the gear doors so I'm wondering if they're located as shown in your schematic.  I'll give that another look.   (Edit: They look to be between the gear doors and the wing pylon.)

If the photo does not actually show the black borders I’ll remove them.  Consensus seems to be they’re bordered. 

I’m still not convinced the wingtips are yellow.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: bustr on June 07, 2018, 03:53:49 PM
I looked at a bunch of 15th AF and 52nd FG and the wingtip is either yellow or aluminum. You can see variations of the yellow stripe and black boarder, yellow tip and no painting at all.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on June 07, 2018, 05:46:29 PM
I looked at a bunch of 15th AF and 52nd FG and the wingtip is either yellow or aluminum. You can see variations of the yellow stripe and black boarder, yellow tip and no painting at all.

I’m leaning toward metal...
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on June 09, 2018, 01:05:22 AM
The more I stared at it the more I wondered if the plane had yellow stripes just inboard of the tips, so I decided to keep digging for a picture with a different angle.  Well...this photo threw me for a loop.  Stripes outboard, no inner stripes on top of the wings...

So what about underneath?

(http://arsenal-info.ru/img/3966754343/pic_99.jpg)

Source page with description I can’t read:

http://arsenal-info.ru/b/book/3966754343/5
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: lyric1 on June 09, 2018, 02:11:29 PM
The more I stared at it the more I wondered if the plane had yellow stripes just inboard of the tips, so I decided to keep digging for a picture with a different angle.  Well...this photo threw me for a loop.  Stripes outboard, no inner stripes on top of the wings...

So what about underneath?

(http://arsenal-info.ru/img/3966754343/pic_99.jpg)

Source page with description I can’t read:

http://arsenal-info.ru/b/book/3966754343/5


(https://i.imgur.com/JGiNrYi.jpg)
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help
Post by: Vraciu on June 09, 2018, 02:30:27 PM
 :rock  :aok :cheers:Thank you!