Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: STXAce8 on September 08, 2018, 01:07:51 AM
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It was pretty bad.....discuss
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I do not bother with FSo. Tried 3 times and they were all total crap
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I do not bother with FSo. Tried 3 times and they were all total crap
Well that was a worthless response, lets just forget about this one and continue on about why this specific setup blows.
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Lets start with a step towards less suck, how about not having a 7 sector flight to the fight, and maybe even some drop tanks so if the axis survive the already unbalanced fight they can still make it home.
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When one side is purely defensive, it can get pretty ugly. With only 1 target to defend, it can get pretty ugly.
Side split was NO WHERE near what designer intended. Allied had almost a 20 man advantage going in, the design called for a 52 / 48 split in favor of the Axis. It probably should have been more of a 60 / 40.
Last night was our first frame back in FSO after a couple months off.
Once the enemy buffs were reported it was like a scene out of Finding Nemo. Too many had a " MINE" mindset.
To watch squads from our south fly north thru our patrol area vs wait for the battle to develop so maybe everyone could get involved was just "stunning " to say the least. We saw ZERO enemy planes last night within icon range. Buffs were eliminated at least a full sector to our north, and our orders had us patrolling a full sector north of the target.
The frame overall was a double ugly, and totally unimpressive from so many points of view sadly, and it goes way beyond the setup itself being the problem.
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Let's not panic, gentlemen. There will occasionally be bad nights. Actually, the majority of missions flown back then were spent flying around not seeing any enemy. I prefer realism over hyper-action but this one was even too real for me. :cool:
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I had several squaddies say the exact same thing as this thread title before logging off in disgust.It was pretty rough as Betty Lead, all bombers lost in probably under 3-4 minutes, had a few sneak away but logs show no landings so...
Here's what I see, all easily repairable.
- Late Axis Orders, came out Friday afternoon. Great that others stepped up, but could have been completely avoidable. With our community could have easily had orders Thursday, Wednesday if someone asked. This helps let people know there is still FSO, Had a couple not know FSO was happening.
- Side split failure. What was supposed to be an Axis advantage was a 20 man disadvantage. I would personally move at least 11-15, maybe more, pilots to Axis side in this particular setup to, especially with G4Ms vs P-40Es and eventually Spit V's
- Distance to target combined with the fact we only had 1 target made it turkey shoot for Allies. Need at least two with assault style setups to split forces. Up Bomber requirement to 16 instead of 12, allowing for 8 formations per objective.
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- Distance to target combined with the fact we only had 1 target made it turkey shoot for Allies. Need at least two with assault style setups to split forces. Up Bomber requirement to 16 instead of 12, allowing for 8 formations per objective.
This is the one that should be addressed.
As you very well know Nef, a designer's nightmare is side splits being off. Axis are supposed to have an advantage, that was far from the case last night. That is out of the designer's hands. The disadvantage only exacerbated the problem.
It takes 50 mins to fly from A50 to Rabat. There is a climb to 18k included. That leaves 10 mins, which is roughly 25 miles of deviation from direct to play with. The Allies, if they knew this, merely had to fly North until they found us. Devil and I both agreed that 0 bombers would make it to target if we adhered to the T+60 rule. It just isn't possible because the Allies know where we are 3 sectors before we get to target. Even if the escorts do an outstanding job, it is only a matter of time before we lose all the bombers. I believe that problem is rectified if the flight distance is cut down by at least two sectors, ideally more.
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I had several squaddies say the exact same thing as this thread title before logging off in disgust.It was pretty rough as Betty Lead, all bombers lost in probably under 3-4 minutes, had a few sneak away but logs show no landings so...
Here's what I see, all easily repairable.
- Late Axis Orders, came out Friday afternoon. Great that others stepped up, but could have been completely avoidable. With our community could have easily had orders Thursday, Wednesday if someone asked. This helps let people know there is still FSO, Had a couple not know FSO was happening.
- Side split failure. What was supposed to be an Axis advantage was a 20 man disadvantage. I would personally move at least 11-15, maybe more, pilots to Axis side in this particular setup to, especially with G4Ms vs P-40Es and eventually Spit V's
- Distance to target combined with the fact we only had 1 target made it turkey shoot for Allies. Need at least two with assault style setups to split forces. Up Bomber requirement to 16 instead of 12, allowing for 8 formations per objective.
With the side splits, we faced this in August as well. One frame the Axis were down by ~20-25 people and it showed. It is just something that happens from time to time, ends up being a perfect storm of understaffed Axis squads and overstaffed Allied squads. I don't think a knee-jerk reaction is necessary or a good idea to start moving squads from one side to the other. It happened in one of three frames last month, it had me worried but ultimately it sort of worked itself out. Moving a large squad like that could cause a problem in Frame 2 if everyone on the Axis shows up.
Perd covered the distance issue very well. There was not much a CIC could do in terms of any sort of tactical plan without breaking the rules. Giving the Axis Tangier as a launch base would give some options to the CIC and Axis would be slightly less strapped for time.
/shrug
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That was a tough go. :salute to the drunken/angry Auzzies..... Seems like there were a few factors which conspired against the axis on this go. A perfect poo-storm if you will.
Too bad it's not easier to add air-spawns to maps for setup purposes. And it seemed the visuals were all out of whack, first 20min i felt like we'd end up in space the world below was so tiny...
Not easy to have all this stuff setup, and CM's/CiCs or whatever other letters do the leg-work, i salute you!
There's already some decent suggestions, you guys will figure it out. :salute
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Why no carriers? The attack on Darwin started with carrier borne Zeros followed by level bombers. That would seem to alleviate a lot of the problem. I know from the overstaffed allies viewpoint it was no fun flying a pattern for an hour plus with no red icons ever over a route that no enemy could use due to the time/distance issue.
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Seems most of the “Pacific” setups are bad for the Axis. Feels like it’s always been that way. Sure we can put some mitigations in place, but I don’t know if that’ll change much.
Side note: Might be fun to do a kamikaze mission one time. Put the entire Japanese force in zeros with bombs. Put the Allies in late war stuff with the intent that it be a turkey shoot. If the Japanese get through to a fleet with a given number of planes, they win the frame. If the Allies shoot them all down, Axis lose.
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I agree with Snork
Add the 3 carrier groups for the allies to contend with and that should lead to Bettys at least having a chance
It would also give wounded players a chance at a safe landing. I know some do not care, but some of us really try to LIVE through an event. Not that my burning Zero would have landed anyway :rofl
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...
Side note: Might be fun to do a kamikaze mission one time. Put the entire Japanese force in zeros with bombs. Put the Allies in late war stuff with the intent that it be a turkey shoot. If the Japanese get through to a fleet with a given number of planes, they win the frame. If the Allies shoot them all down, Axis lose.
This might be exhilarating....
Worst part of FSO, the boring lead up to contact...
best part of FSO, the insane action after contact...
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With the side splits, we faced this in August as well. One frame the Axis were down by ~20-25 people and it showed. It is just something that happens from time to time, ends up being a perfect storm of understaffed Axis squads and overstaffed Allied squads. I don't think a knee-jerk reaction is necessary or a good idea to start moving squads from one side to the other. It happened in one of three frames last month, it had me worried but ultimately it sort of worked itself out. Moving a large squad like that could cause a problem in Frame 2 if everyone on the Axis shows up.
As you very well know Nef, a designer's nightmare is side splits being off. Axis are supposed to have an advantage, that was far from the case last night. That is out of the designer's hands. The disadvantage only exacerbated the problem.
Up the number of Axis and the number of Axis bombers, worst case scenario is you will have a larger than expected Axis advantage with a few additional bombers. This is by far the easiest defender setup in all of FSO, anything vs G4Ms.
The Allies appear to be 3 over their Max number, while the Axis are two over their minimum and had one Allied pilot lol. The 327th will probably only have 1-3 players this month per frame, so you're starting short from the get-go. A 7-10 or 11-15 squad to the Axis would be a good start.
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Why no carriers? The attack on Darwin started with carrier borne Zeros followed by level bombers.
This is after the carrier raids. CVs would make no difference as the Allies would not be tasked with attacking them anyways.
The side split has the Axis with a 10 pilot advantage in the design.
Frame 1 saw 69 Axis to 87 Allied.
Showing up is their job. There is no way in Gods green world you can have this setup work with the Axis having a an 18 pilot deficit.
The absolute min # for the Axis is 67. They had 69. I cant recall another FSO frame where the turnout was that poor.
One target or two...late orders or not...7 sectors or 5. The result would be the same.
As for the one target...well there had been a lot of talk about doing that and giving both sides all these options ect with more squads to task...but this wasnt the frame for it. In any case I wanted to try it out. So much for that.
...and yes I will likely have to move a large squad to Axis this time to make this things workable.
I am very disappointed in what happened let me try and see what I can do here.
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I am very disappointed in what happened let me try and see what I can do here.
Just do what you can. I'm sure it's like herding cats...
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This is after the carrier raids. CVs would make no difference as the Allies would not be tasked with attacking them anyways.
The side split has the Axis with a 10 pilot advantage in the design.
Frame 1 saw 69 Axis to 87 Allied.
Showing up is their job. There is no way in Gods green world you can have this setup work with the Axis having a an 18 pilot deficit.
I didn't mean for carriers to be targets, just a way to get zeros to target sooner and have a chance to land successfully.
The absolute min # for the Axis is 67. They had 69. I cant recall another FSO frame where the turnout was that poor.
One target or two...late orders or not...7 sectors or 5. The result would be the same.
As for the one target...well there had been a lot of talk about doing that and giving both sides all these options ect with more squads to task...but this wasnt the frame for it. In any case I wanted to try it out. So much for that.
...and yes I will likely have to move a large squad to Axis this time to make this things workable.
I am very disappointed in what happened let me try and see what I can do here.
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Here are my observations on this frame:
1-The setup was run right behind a holiday weekend. It should have been held off one week so everybody could catch up to what was going on.
2-The Axis orders went out the day of the event. This always leads to poor coordination, limited options considered, and usually the straightest approach to target is the one that is chosen. In this case it was.
3-I have never cared for the one side attacks one side defends setup. The bombers usually get gutted by defenders because the defenders do not have to try to figure anything out. Further there is no guarantee that everyone sees action unless everyone crashes together at the exact same spot at the same time.
4-The Allied defense plan was a good one. The Allied squads executed perfectly. The Axis bombers and fighters flew right into what AkWarHwk had setup and were ground to bits.
5-There are complaints about the writeup and objectives that could have been addressed ahead of lift time.
6-The Axis side if I am looking at correctly came in light with numbers. Nothing can fix this but the squadrons themselves.
7-The Allies came in the high side of required numbers. This just compounds the problems for the attacking side.
The Pigs have just received an email that we are now Axis for the rest of the month. We look forward to our new job and will see you all on the skies next week.
:salute
Way
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Here are my observations on this frame:
1-The setup was run right behind a holiday weekend. It should have been held off one week so everybody could catch up to what was going on.
2-The Axis orders went out the day of the event. This always leads to poor coordination, limited options considered, and usually the straightest approach to target is the one that is chosen. In this case it was.
3-I have never cared for the one side attacks one side defends setup. The bombers usually get gutted by defenders because the defenders do not have to try to figure anything out. Further there is no guarantee that everyone sees action unless everyone crashes together at the exact same spot at the same time.
4-The Allied defense plan was a good one. The Allied squads executed perfectly. The Axis bombers and fighters flew right into what AkWarHwk had setup and were ground to bits.
5-There are complaints about the writeup and objectives that could have been addressed ahead of lift time.
6-The Axis side if I am looking at correctly came in light with numbers. Nothing can fix this but the squadrons themselves.
7-The Allies came in the high side of required numbers. This just compounds the problems for the attacking side.
The Pigs have just received an email that we are now Axis for the rest of the month. We look forward to our new job and will see you all on the skies next week.
:salute
Way
Axis orders went out late, but there was a VERY limited avenue of attack in order to make it to target on time. There weren't many options to consider unless you want to break the rules. There was no room to fly West or East or anything like that because the attack would not have gotten there by t+60. As previous posts have said, tests were run and with a STRAIGHT line to target the G4M's were to get there at t+51, and that is with limited throttling back. The orders could have come out 4 months ago and the route would have been the same. Simple math and testing would have concluded that the Allies could have went to a small area on the map and found the attack group no matter what.
The Defense plan was good, but with an extra 20 people to help with that. There were also plenty of Allies who didn't see any action at all according to the logs, because the over-abundance of pilots meant a slaughter as soon as the bombers were spotted. Not that is anyone's fault in particular...the plan worked and that is all that matters.
:salute
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Axis orders went out late, but there was a VERY limited avenue of attack in order to make it to target on time. There weren't many options to consider unless you want to break the rules. There was no room to fly West or East or anything like that because the attack would not have gotten there by t+60. As previous posts have said, tests were run and with a STRAIGHT line to target the G4M's were to get there at t+51, and that is with limited throttling back. The orders could have come out 4 months ago and the route would have been the same. Simple math and testing would have concluded that the Allies could have went to a small area on the map and found the attack group no matter what.
I hear what you are saying but don't you think one of the Axis CO's would have said something to the CM's when the objectives came out? When I see the objectives that I am concerned about I accept them or I ask clarification questions. The distance issue was there when we all received our objectives a week ago. Please understand my observations were never meant as a slam on anyone. This frame was a perfect storm of ugly convergences.
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I hear what you are saying but don't you think one of the Axis CO's would have said something to the CM's when the objectives came out? When I see the objectives that I am concerned about I accept them or I ask clarification questions. The distance issue was there when we all received our objectives a week ago. Please understand my observations were never meant as a slam on anyone. This frame was a perfect storm of ugly convergences.
No I know what you mean...me personally I opened up the objectives and saw the map and thought to myself "oh boy". I never got around to doing any time trials though, but I knew 7 sectors would be pushing it. I agree, the perfect storm. :)
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Flying defense and being a rank and file pilot for FSO, I don't receive the objectives and full orders. I absorb from both vox and text the fluid nature of the battle. As an experienced bomber pilot, CIC mission planner and long time player, I have to ask these questions to the Axis side.
1) Were there any Frame night leaders to call verbal changes to the Orders due to low turnout for better opportunities of success?
2) Were there any aggressive bomber pilots that night to throw the textbook training out the window?
For obvious reasons, please don't answer those questions in the name of Axis Command Security. Axis Squad COs know what they are doing. Those questions were to give the audience the perspective of being given lemons. Those lemons can be changed to sweeter things.
For the rest reading this, I have read the OP and the responses. There seems to be a little negativity and some anger. This is not the worst FSO. If it was, then both sides would have complained. This frame was not the best for one side due to prior reasons stated. The CM team with the agreement of the Pigs to balance out the side split. :salute
Let's move on and enjoy Frame 2 and 3.
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I do not bother with FSo. Tried 3 times and they were all total crap
I've enjoyed them all. This one was perhaps the least fun, but stuff happens.
I got an assist and it felt like a real accomplishment since I only saw two bad guys the whole frame. It's usually much more action packed than that.
Oh well. Next week!
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Pretty sure the Japanese General that came up with this plan has already committed Hari-Kari so as to not bring dis-honor to the Emperor or his family.
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Pretty sure the Japanese General that came up with this plan has already committed Hari-Kari so as to not bring dis-honor to the Emperor or his family.
lol, that means the allies will outnumber us again! as we all brought shame on our families! dang bug-eyed allies!
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Pretty sure the Japanese General that came up with this plan has already committed Hari-Kari so as to not bring dis-honor to the Emperor or his family.
We either break the T+60 rule or fly straight to target. No options.
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We either break the T+60 rule or fly straight to target. No options.
Yes it was a joke to say let's put it behind us and move on. I read all the other posts about this and realize what happened was unforeseeable (to a lowly nobody like me) and unavoidable. Just wish I could have dropped my bombs is all. Now I am just waiting to be respawned as a vengeful fighter ace that will take down many enemies for the Emperor ( May he Live forever with the Sun on his face ) :airplane: :salute
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:ahand
Well, All pretty much good points . Nobody should enjoy FSO as any less than a Challenge. Even difficult.. Combat does that. Balls were dropped...some picked up and made the most of in a difficult situation. Didn't we all learn from it some??
Some disappointments, some victorious ovations.. For me, I just enjoyed flyin 'round the area and watchin everybody else with nk1dog in my lap.. I enjoyed being there with you all!! Shall we adjust as indicated and try again?? Thank you all for the analysis and glorious suggestions. Banzai!!
:joystick: :old:
:salute
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This crap is utter garbage, Pacific fso's generally suck, but this is something beyond the pale. If this were my first FSO it would also be my last.
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I think c-hogs need to be enabled for frame three, the buffs got within a sector of target last night, thats too close for comfort. :D
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:rofl
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I think c-hogs need to be enabled for frame three, the buffs got within a sector of target last night, thats too close for comfort. :D
By Frame 3 we might be able to drop some bombs!
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I believe logs will show a slightly different story than Frame 1. The addition of players certainly helped, but the crux of the issue persists. Seven sectors is just too far in slow aircraft such as the G4M. It can be rectified with more time allotted tp drop, but that makes for a long night.
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The Pigs and Unforgiven got most of our bombers into the target. Problem was getting home. As the bombers were leaving and looking at our fuel state the remaining Pig A6s decided to fight to the end rather than fly for 55 minutes at 200 mph to land safely. Closer launch or droppers for the incoming attackers would help. Not interested in extra bombers. 12 is enough.
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Perhaps moving the targets North to A54, A2, V77 would help.
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I think the lesson here for designers is simple. If you don't have a terrain to match the historical location then stop. It will be a disaster.
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Well there are closer targets?
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Use of the wind by the CM setup could solve a lot of the timing issues.
Setting some strong southerly layers and some strong northerly layers (with a couple of zero wind in between) could easily remove one of the bugbears. Even a very slight updraft could be looked at below 10k just to help. (updrafts have to be slow or they rip formations to shreds).
3 hangars went down and complete trios flew away from the target zone frame 2. A couple of arena settings and a tactical change or two and it could get quite competitive.
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I think c-hogs need to be enabled for frame three, the buffs got within a sector of target last night, thats too close for comfort. :D
Then give us Ki61's and Ki84's plus N1K2's so we have a slight chance!!!! lmfao JK!!! :cheers:
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If I was an evil thinking Design/Setup CM for Frame 3, then I would contact all the Axis squads. Since your side is in the overwhelming majority, then let's have some fun with the small fledgling Allied side. Everyone gets to have all Betty bombers with formations. There will be over 250 bombers in the air. You can arrive in all directions, altitudes and some within T + 60 and the rest after T + 60.
Will some get shot down? Yes, but not all of them.
Will the target get hit? Absolutely.
Allied scouts would report the first large group of bombers and get defenders moving that direction. Then, other scouts would report more bombers in another area away from first group. Reports of more bombers at NOE, high altitude, from the west, north, east and south. Confusion, mass hysteria, cats and dogs living together. What a horrible scenario.
We shouldn't do that. That would be the worst FSO Frame ever. Players would smash their monitors in frustration. Squads would break apart. Memories of your 3rd grade teachers saying, "I told you so" would resurface.
I am sure clear thinking heads will prevail for Frame 3 and we will have an excellent turnout and combat for all.
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If I was an evil thinking Design/Setup CM for Frame 3, then I would contact all the Axis squads. Since your side is in the overwhelming majority, then let's have some fun with the small fledgling Allied side. Everyone gets to have all Betty bombers with formations. There will be over 250 bombers in the air. You can arrive in all directions, altitudes and some within T + 60 and the rest after T + 60.
Will some get shot down? Yes, but not all of them.
Will the target get hit? Absolutely.
Allied scouts would report the first large group of bombers and get defenders moving that direction. Then, other scouts would report more bombers in another area away from first group. Reports of more bombers at NOE, high altitude, from the west, north, east and south. Confusion, mass hysteria, cats and dogs living together. What a horrible scenario.
We shouldn't do that. That would be the worst FSO Frame ever. Players would smash their monitors in frustration. Squads would break apart. Memories of your 3rd grade teachers saying, "I told you so" would resurface.
I am sure clear thinking heads will prevail for Frame 3 and we will have an excellent turnout and combat for all.
That would also be overwhelmingly against the rules in multiple aspects.
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I know. No matter what you do. There is someone who complains about something.
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3 hangars went down and complete trios flew away from the target zone frame 2. A couple of arena settings and a tactical change or two and it could get quite competitive.
Yep... three bomber hangers down and a good chunk of the town. Landed nine out of fifteen of our bombers, after losing one group to a disco. I'll take 50% when flying Betties any day. :salute
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Yep... three bomber hangers down and a good chunk of the town. Landed nine out of fifteen of our bombers, after losing one group to a disco. I'll take 50% when flying Betties any day. :salute
WTG! :aok
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As mentioned before, the logs for frame 2 will show a different story. I designed the Axis plan specifically to split forces and attack 90 degrees offset, flash bases, and put scout sweep fighters in front to create as much chaos and fog of war as possible to give us a chance at getting bombs on target and run the allies out of as much ammo as possible before bombers would arrive.
Attacking with betties from a distance where maneuvering for an approach to target with deception is not easy in this scenario.
Allies have faster fighters with cannon. The right attack run on a bomber set can drop all three in a single pass.
Frame 2 worked out much better because we did get two additional squads that allowed for a little flexibility moving to contact.
Again, you'll see it when the logs come out. There was some intense fighting. We lost an entire bomb group on one end but bombs out and a great attack from the other end. 3 hangers and a portion of town is success. The fact we landed any bombers is icing on the cake.
Fuel became our fighter's biggest enemy the second half of the frame. I landed with 2 gallons left and no rudder.
Looking forward to frame 3.
This month presents some unique challenges for the Axis. Forces us to really think and plan.
I spent well over 12 hours planning frame 2 and flying test routes. The mission was perfectly executed. I couldn't have asked for more from the squads that flew the mission. It's simply a complicated problem to solve.
But I do claim an Axis victory for frame 2 in that we hit target and landed some bombers. Hey... ...theybwere betties!!! Even one landing is victory IMHO.
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Those of us in Spits were sucking on air in the fuel tanks. I landed with about two mins of gas praying nobody would jump me before I got home.
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Frames 2 and 3 was what this setup was meant to be with the Axis having enough pilots to do it properly. I take my part of the blame for frame 1 as I should have anticipated the split a bit better...In any case I hope there was some fun in there. :salute
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Frames 2 and 3 was what this setup was meant to be with the Axis having enough pilots to do it properly. I take my part of the blame for frame 1 as I should have anticipated the split a bit better...In any case I hope there was some fun in there. :salute
Great recovery Squire!
Thanks for the "think quick" and "I'll fix it" attitude. :aok
The event was awesome!
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Also a big thanks for enabling drop tanks. It allowed for protracted fights on both sides. The last two frames made up for the first. All in all a fun scenario.
Thanks!