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Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: nrshida on September 08, 2018, 01:22:40 AM

Title: Fighters as bombers
Post by: nrshida on September 08, 2018, 01:22:40 AM
Yesterday, about ten minutes after I was appointed commander and lord chief general of the entire Knight armed forces (by virtue of being the only Knight online) I noticed a ground vehicle at my town. Not wanting Starbucks to fall and not being able to inform a specialist I dropped two bombs on him from my Ki-84. I'd not done that before and much to my surprise, one must've gone right down his chimney, because I killed him  :rofl

I'm not sure what I did or even if I could repeat it, i just pulled out of the shallow dive I'd used to spot him and used the force to let them go. Only one could've hit, the Ki-84 bombs looked pretty small and the vehicle said M4 - that's a Sherbet tank I think. How does that work, by hitting the top armour of the tank which is presumably thinner?

Inspired by the possibility to enhance Kilroy's gameplay, as an example, I was wondering what fighter bombing techniques people use. Is skip bombing or near-vertical dive bombing possible to aim? Is there minimum heights for fusing I think I once heard? How do you 'aim' so-to-speak with no bombsight? Is it just instinctive with practice? Does the bomb actually have to hit the vehicle or can the ground explosion do the job if it's close enough, like the rocket splash in Quake?



Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: BOBO on September 08, 2018, 06:09:04 AM
I stole and then modified a reticle that I thought looked really cool back in AH2.  Then I added a reference for shooting rockets and a pair of chevrons at the bottom for a dive bombing reference.  They seem to work fine for me with every plane that is not a Mosquito bomber. 
 (http://funkyimg.com/i/2L4A3.bmp) (http://funkyimg.com/i/2L4A4.bmp)
 (http://funkyimg.com/i/2L4A5.bmp) (http://funkyimg.com/i/2L4A6.bmp)
 (http://funkyimg.com/i/2L4A7.bmp)

I've also made a reticle for use with Japanese planes.
(http://funkyimg.com/i/2L4A2.bmp)
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: nrshida on September 08, 2018, 07:28:32 AM
I've also made a reticle for use with Japanese planes.
(http://funkyimg.com/i/2L4A2.bmp)

 :rofl I don't use a gunsight but I'm downloading that one  :banana:

Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: The Fugitive on September 08, 2018, 08:26:37 AM
Yesterday, about ten minutes after I was appointed commander and lord chief general of the entire Knight armed forces (by virtue of being the only Knight online) I noticed a ground vehicle at my town. Not wanting Starbucks to fall and not being able to inform a specialist I dropped two bombs on him from my Ki-84. I'd not done that before and much to my surprise, one must've gone right down his chimney, because I killed him  :rofl

I'm not sure what I did or even if I could repeat it, i just pulled out of the shallow dive I'd used to spot him and used the force to let them go. Only one could've hit, the Ki-84 bombs looked pretty small and the vehicle said M4 - that's a Sherbet tank I think. How does that work, by hitting the top armour of the tank which is presumably thinner?

Inspired by the possibility to enhance Kilroy's gameplay, as an example, I was wondering what fighter bombing techniques people use. Is skip bombing or near-vertical dive bombing possible to aim?

Skip bombing doesnt work in the game. If the bomb hasnt traveled the arming distance before it hits something it just disapears... no bounce.

Quote
Is there minimum heights for fusing I think I once heard?

500 feet. The bomb must travel 500 feet to arm. This is in any direction. Coming in low and releasing to "lob" to bomb becomes harder to do seeing as you dont have any real "markers" to judge speed and distance on the fly, but it does work.

Quote
How do you 'aim' so-to-speak with no bombsight? Is it just instinctive with practice?

In most cases the easest way I have found to dive bomb is to come in at anything from 45-90 degree angle spotting the target in the low forward view. As you start to pull up/out of the dive release the bomb just as the target drops under the cowling (for the 45 degree drop) or a bit closer toward the piper (for the 90 degree drop).

So practice/instinct does come into play.

Quote
Does the bomb actually have to hit the vehicle or can the ground explosion do the job if it's close enough, like the rocket splash in Quake?

No the bombs have "splash damage" the smaller the bomb the closer it needs to be to get the max damage.
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: nrshida on September 08, 2018, 08:35:49 AM
Ah thank you Fugitive that was very comprehensive. I'd have liked to try skip bombing, that's too bad. Has anyone tried toss, especially over-the-shoulder in Aces High? I read American planes had a Toss Bomb Computer in the late 50s.

Very interesting topic I haven't investigated yet  :banana:

I thought the TA used to have targets on the ground once but I think they've been removed?

Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: BOBO on September 08, 2018, 09:04:30 AM
Ah thank you Fugitive that was very comprehensive.  I thought the TA used to have targets on the ground once but I think they've been removed?

Very interesting topic I haven't investigated yet  :banana:

The TA has a divebombing range, I believe the air starts happen when you launch NE from the airfields on top of the mountains there.  It used to be that if you selected a bomb or rocket there you would get a magic crosshair that would show you exactly where your ordinance would hit the ground.   I preferred the 10K and 15K bases for divebombing practice.  The air starts allow for a lot of practice in a short amount of time. 

(https://media.giphy.com/media/PMU0snkGXGMDPIfRv7/giphy.gif)

In no time you'll be taking out GVs like Iowa Hawkeye fans attack the goalposts after a road win against the Minnesota Golden Goofers.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/5UxQUKYqqWAXVgohZI/giphy.gif)

Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: Puma44 on September 08, 2018, 10:53:15 AM
Ah thank you Fugitive that was very comprehensive. I'd have liked to try skip bombing, that's too bad. Has anyone tried toss, especially over-the-shoulder in Aces High? I read American planes had a Toss Bomb Computer in the late 50s.

Very interesting topic I haven't investigated yet  :banana:

I thought the TA used to have targets on the ground once but I think they've been removed?



I’ve tried toss on occasion.  It’s inaccurate without a lot of practice. A perfectly straight vector line to the target is required and the time of release during pull-up takes a lot of experimenting.  I’ve found that when my heals are pointing at the target, the release is more accurate. 
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: BuckShot on September 08, 2018, 11:32:47 AM
I'm in the habit of glancing out at my wingtip for a horizon reference right after I start my dive. It helps me determine my aim point.
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: nrshida on September 08, 2018, 11:59:32 AM
I’ve found that when my heals are pointing at the target, the release is more accurate.

Great tip, thank you.


In no time you'll be taking out GVs like Iowa Hawkeye fans attack the goalposts after a road win against the Minnesota Golden Goofers.

That's one of the funniset things I've ever seen. What do they do with the goalposts after they get them outside?

Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: colmbo on September 08, 2018, 12:09:57 PM
Generally a steeper dive is a more accurate bomb. 

The most important factor is practice.
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: Puma44 on September 08, 2018, 12:35:48 PM
Generally a steeper dive is a more accurate bomb. 

The most important factor is practice.

Having done it real world, both of these tips are the key to accurate bombing.
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: nrshida on September 08, 2018, 12:52:05 PM
Having done it real world, both of these tips are the key to accurate bombing.

Wow interesting.
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: Puma44 on September 08, 2018, 01:02:26 PM
The steeper the dive angle the better.  A steep dive angle reduces some of the variables involved in dive bombing.

(https://s33.postimg.cc/kowd0mvyz/A6_A386_D8-195_C-440_F-_ACAF-64923_DA9713_D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/kowd0mvyz/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/kq6au1anf/5_B4_B7033-_A381-4_D82-89_E6-_AA336432_FD36.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/kq6au1anf/)
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: nrshida on September 08, 2018, 01:08:39 PM
The most important factor is practice.

I will do some work  :salute

Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: Lusche on September 08, 2018, 01:51:32 PM
Taking 1000kg bombs in the Tu-2 almost eliminates the necessity of aiming when dive bombing GVs in the Tu-2  :devil
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: Puma44 on September 08, 2018, 02:01:05 PM
A big BOOM is always better than just boom.
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: 1stpar3 on September 08, 2018, 02:38:53 PM
 :aok Lord NRSHIDA,SIR! Dive bombing with Ki-84.. :uhoh..ITS WHAT I DO :devil Even SpitXVI as it carries 2-250s and 1-500, MORE than enough to kill 3 T34s,M4s, wirbs, Ostis,well just about any thing. All 3 together...yup even Tigers :x Trust me...ITS WHAT I DO :devil Which is why, when I was saying the MPA fights were something I wasnt use to as I am usually Low and Slow..and PURE defensive. Absolutely nothing like that experience...stop a Sneak base take with 3 bombs and some Furballing to boot :rock Just dont consider your K/D score...you may run into Virgle or NOTAR in flacks :furious They die too...just harder to get them to stay still and NOT shooting back :rofl
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: BOBO on September 08, 2018, 03:51:22 PM
Great tip, thank you.


That's one of the funniset things I've ever seen. What do they do with the goalposts after they get them outside?

I'm ashamed to say that they were unable to get them out of that particular stadium.  The Goofers play their home games at this indoor stadium called the Metrodome.  The Metrodome's roof is like a big parachute so to keep positive static air pressure inside the stadium the entrances/exits all use revolving doors which made it impossible to actually get the goalpost past the lobby.

Nobody knows why, but running onto the field & stealing goalposts is a proud tradition among fans of the Iowa Hawkeyes.  It may be one of the contributing factors to the University of Iowa sitting near or at the top of pretty much every list of best party schools every year since I was a kid.

(https://images.roguegaming.org/images/2018/09/08/Vodka-samm.jpg)

Coincidentally, our home football stadium was named after a former player who was also a F-6 Hellcat pilot during WWII and it features a Pink Locker room that we provide to the visiting football teams.
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: Bruv119 on September 08, 2018, 05:01:19 PM
speed and dive angle, 

target is preferable stationary, on the move you have to judge a bit of lead onto where they will be when the bomb hits, easy with practice.  The Ki-84 is great for the powerful climb and ability to fight after you've added your 2 free kills. 

bomb****ing is a whole new world, Next you'll be asking how to use a bombsight and capturing a field.    :banana:

Hurri 2D has to be the gentleman's plane for griefing GV's especially when ords are down.   
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: nrshida on September 09, 2018, 06:25:51 AM
bomb****ing is a whole new world, Next you'll be asking how to use a bombsight and capturing a field.    :banana:

I find toss bombing a fascinating challenge. Complex, difficult and ultimately pointless, right up my street. Plus it just sounds way rude, Zack would have a field day.


Hurri 2D has to be the gentleman's plane for griefing GV's especially when ords are down.   

Bomb****ing you say, reeaaaally!


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMTAxMTAyNDAxNjBeQTJeQWpwZ15BbWU3MDY4NjI1Mjg@._V1_SY1000_CR0,0,799,1000_AL_.jpg)


Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: nrshida on September 10, 2018, 08:28:16 AM
Well I spent an hour toss bombing ( :rofl) and although I was able to establish some kind of group and could range the length correctly, I found the bombs were mysteriously off to the right of the aim line. I was able to watch the bombs all the way in. The forced delay of 0.05 seconds in salvo is annoying, they can - but not always - spread apart on the way down. Why I don't know. You can watch them ascend, turn flat and descend to target. That's quite fun.

Shame there's no coloured smoke trail for practice. Also shame there's not ground-mounted target in the TA. Centrelines would have been handy. Then it would be worth putting in more work.



Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: 1stpar3 on September 10, 2018, 02:57:16 PM
Smoke trail would be a great aid. There ARE ground targets in TA. From the Level/Dive Bombing(upper right) area, go south from each base. Large Circle bomb targets. You can also-OFF LINE- in TA exchange the offline drones to TANKS. A few line up beside runways, and show craters for a time...to dial in method.In ARENA FLAGS section of options, under Flight Mode Flags check the DIVE BOMB SIGHT...this gives you a point on ground where bombs will impact..sort of like lead comp Gun Site. I practice this DAILY, before I log into arena. PRACTICE PRACTICE as in anything else. Especially in KI-84..she tends to be a bit "SPEED" critical :uhoh So after eating timber or grass a few times...I will return in a Spit XVI...not as susceptible to compression, but still gives the SMALL BOMB thrill :x  The float too the right, I believe is Torque Effect. If you dive in and cut throttle you notice the "BUBBLE" slides/yaws to the left...I trim a bit left rudder and that disengages Combat Trim. Using manual rudder inputs seem to OVER CORRECT for some reason, where Trim does not. Or you just KENTUCKY WINDAGE it and aim to the left a bit :salute
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: nrshida on September 11, 2018, 03:46:40 AM
OFF LINE- in TA exchange the offline drones to TANKS.

Great idea!


The float too the right, I believe is Torque Effect.

I'll do some tests. Aware of Kentucky Windage from watching Hickock45 videos  :banana: :salute

Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: BOBO on September 11, 2018, 04:05:51 AM
Great idea!


I'll do some tests. Aware of Kentucky Windage from watching Hickock45 videos  :banana: :salute

How's this for Kentucky windage in Aces High?
It was mostly luck but I'm still proud of myself :)  I got my range estimate to the runway by shooting some fuel tanks that I knew were near the runway.  HE splash damage can be a huge factor vs Aeroplanes.
https://youtu.be/KUeDy9IUczY
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: nrshida on September 11, 2018, 04:16:03 AM
How's this for Kentucky windage in Aces High?

Bloody hell, what a shot! Hats off sir  (http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/notworthy.gif)

Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: haggerty on September 11, 2018, 10:02:07 PM
I've probably bombed Kilroy 100 times by now, I'll try to put together a video on my methods one day.  Almost every plane I use has the same general area for bomb release, at the tip of the dash just below the bottom of the gun reticle.  Of course this is all dependant on dive angle and speed, but it works for me so often. 
Best bet is to do the online practice I think it is, that gives you a bomb reticle of where your bomb will land.  Then do typical attack patterns that you can replicate in the MA and find out what point of your cockpit you can use as a reference to drop the bomb at.  Once you get good you can kill wirbles with ease, leaving them only a slim chance of making contact with you.

Since im going to bed now, I'll just leave you with a 1 hour film of me doing ground attack, 14 kill run that I ended up bombing the wirble that shotout my engine.  Came back around on him and got him with a deadstick lob while avoiding a fighter.  Got the ditch in the end.
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: BOBO on September 12, 2018, 07:33:41 AM
Haven't done this for a while, and I've only ever done it twice.  But what about GVs as monster trucks?  Just be careful if you crush a plane with guns in the fuselage because they are uncrushable with the current physics model.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/xUbBItvohfO5j9pjIq/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: Zener on October 02, 2018, 09:45:43 AM
Slightly off topic but... I got a very lucky "neversaw'em" kill one day while trying to track down someone who upped a jeep and parked it in deep tree cover to keep the base flashing.  I was in an A-20, there was a FI up and a couple fighters too.  We were criss-crossing the GV dar square trying to find him... no dice.  After four passes I got bored and decided to land and find something else to do.  I pull up and bank steeply to the left, 70° or so, and while in the turn I pickle off all four of the wing mounted bombs thinking it will make for easier plane handling at low speed on approach.

As I start to level out headed for the field, I get a kill message in the text buffer, followed by 4 distant BOOMS.  I thought he must have towered and I got a proxy but soon I got a PM from one very angry jeeper.  "You cheatin' hacking *&^%*&, you never flew close enough to spot me .... etc."  I replied that I never did see him, I was just dumping bombs and going back to base and must have gotten an accidental hit.  He wasn't buying it one bit.  Told me he watched the bomb coming in like it was laser guided, how it hit a foot in front of his jeep, etc. so I must have knew where he was.  Nope, was just a pure lucky hit.     

As to the original topic question, the TA is your best friend comes to dive bombing.  Learn the angle that works best for what you like to fly and learn to fly an approach that works for you.  Use that cross pipper in the TA until you have a working idea of where your bomb will go for a given approach.  I find that if I stick close to the parameters (speed, dive angle) I trained with, I can hit targets with decent success.  If I miss, it's almost always because I veered too far from those familiar parameters.
Title: Re: Fighters as bombers
Post by: Zimme83 on October 06, 2018, 10:38:23 AM
Taking 1000kg bombs in the Tu-2 almost eliminates the necessity of aiming when dive bombing GVs in the Tu-2  :devil


I prefer the 1800 kg bomb of the Stukazz, It makes holes of the proper size.