Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: AKcurly on September 17, 2001, 03:42:00 PM
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Some of the allied pilots lost planes and upped a new plane. I suspect this is disco related, but the clarification should be in the log.
Some of the allied pilots lost planes and then took gunner positions and subsequently killed axis planes. I think that's at best unfair.
You have one life in TOD. If you die, you get to watch on the sidelines or perhaps join with a fighter to watch him participate.
No (that's zero, folks) axis pilots re-upped
after dying.
Please clarify this situation for me.
AKcurly
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Someone else is gonna have to clarify this, but as far as I understand it, there's currently a 1/2 hour rule wrt disco's (maybe like the 2 hour rule, it's there but not posted). I could be wrong about the length of the time limit - but disco'd pilots have been allowed to rejoin, and it's happened in every frame so far.
Gunning for buffs, ships, whatever has always been allowed by both sides, and currently that shows up in the "flights" category (it's why you see 16 flights for a squad of only 10, for example).
I've got no problem with either of these, personally - and they don't give advantages to any side in particular.
[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: Nash ]
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Originally posted by Nash:
Someone else is gonna have to clarify this, but as far as I understand it, there's currently a 1/2 hour rule wrt disco's (maybe like the 2 hour rule, it's there but not posted). I could be wrong about the length of the time limit - but disco'd pilots have been allowed to rejoin, and it's happened in every frame so far.
Gunning for buffs, ships, whatever has always been allowed by both sides, and currently that shows up in the "flights" category (it's why you see 16 flights for a squad of only 10, for example).
I've got no problem with either of these, personally - and they don't give advantages to any side in particular.
[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: Nash ]
Ok Nash concerning the discos. I have no problem with discos rejoining.
Concerning dead pilots manning ack positions ... while it may have been done in the past, it sure doesn't seem right to me.
Let's take a hypothetical case. Suppose some fighters attack a group of buffs. Maybe the buff escort kills the fighters. How is it fair to give the pilot (who's already been bested one time) a second shot at the buffs?
In the last TOD, 3 AKs in JU-88s were killed by pilots in shipboard ack positions -- pilots who had already been killed! That's not right!
Why not let walk-ons do shipboard ack? Why not just leave shipboard ack as AI?
Grumble. :)
AKcurly
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Startegy will certainly be affected if pilots are allowed to man guns once they lose a plane. Any strike mission will be greatly expedited so that any killed or unsuccessful pilots can then defend their home turf. If your bombs miss then ditch (no penalty for losing a plane) and hop from field to field looking for the enemy.
If we allow this then perhaps there should be some restrictions, like, only one resurrection and no moving to another field. You're stuck there for the duration.
Just my $.02
AKIron
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Actually curly makes a good point.
Manning a gunner station from the start is different than dieing and then jumping to bombers or fleet guns.
I can see letting disco's man fleet and field
defenses especially those later in the frame.
But that is different from a dead pilot manning a gun.
BTW just for the record yes One of those fleet gunners in question was myself.
<S> AK's that was a VERY nice attack, you almost got the CV also, but 2 torps stopped 50 feet short.
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If I'm reading the results right then it's not necessary for a successful RTB to score your points. That makes my previous comment about expedited strike missions even more significant. All strike missions should be one way assuming kills scored while manning guns will be counted. Maybe they should not be.
AKIron
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As a general editorial:
scenario designers should think LONG AND HARD before allowing dead pilots to take over as 5" gunners on the fleet, especially if the other side is flying torpedo planes. I've been in more than one scenario where an entire torpedo strike is wiped out by 1945-era anti-aircraft. The ack is sufficiently unbalancing that it penalizes a side that doesn't lose any of its aircraft, and rewards those who get shot down shooting up escorts. Besides, you can get kills on planes beyond tracer range.
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I don't want to come across as being too critical, I had a great time in the last two TOD events and very much appreciate the effort that goes into planning and coordinating these things. S! to all those involved in putting it together.
I also know that we are a very competitive bunch and good rules will make good neighbors. I seldom resist the urge to offer my $.02.
AKIron
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I support dead/discoed pilots as aircraft gunners.
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Nah, don't feel as if you may be being too critical AKIron. All these comments and suggestions are really helpful. Players gotta let the CMs know what they think are problems and offer alternatives. Nobody's being an arse about anything, and by offering up suggestions it's just making the TOD more solid for everyone of us. Growin' pains, but we're starting to hone in on it.
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Below was added in the last frame of London Calling or the first frame of our current TOD in the TOD rules. It is the last bullet under #2.
2. Participation
* Discos may be allowed to reup "only" in the first 30 minutes of the Frame. After 30 minutes players may choose to gun for a buff, field or ship ack only if available.
I personally don't see a problem with players who were killed maning ack. If you do please tell me why. As always my ears are open. :)
Akcurly, AKiron, dinger you think when we man ack it is significantly more deadly then AI? Many of you fly a lot more than I so I look to you for answers.
<S>
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My major objection is fleet 5" guns.
Here's an example from the last Snapshot I flew:
Out of 9 TBMs, three were shot down by zekes. Our fighter escorts killed ALL the remaining Japanese interceptors. So we drop down on the deck and set up a torpedo run. I pull it off pretty close to perfect -- pickle right as the small-caliber ack comes up.
Of 6 TBMs, NONE returned. Every single one was killed by 5" ack.
Okay, in WWII, torpedo-bombers were always marginal because of their incredibly high casualties. When the fleets beefed up their AA and got such toys as prox-fused shells, they were obsolete.
When you're making a torpedo run on the fleet, if you're disciplined, you have a shot at surviving the AI ack. But if the fleet has humans at all the 5" prox-fused guns, you're dead, along with all your buddies. Torpedo-bombing involves flying slowly on the deck along a steady course that requires a minimum of lead. The effective range of the torpedoes means that they must be pickled in icon-range.
Now put on the other side a guy lobbing shells that will kill TBs from the moment they appear as dots. Figure 10,000 yards for dot range. That means the gunner has one minute to pick up and fire wildly at the target in the hope of a lucky shot. Then the TBs pass the threshhold from rough to precise positional update, and the gunner can zoom in on plane type. If the gunner's good, he can hit at this range, and the TBs won't see the shell. If the TBs are in formation, there's a really good chance of getting multiple kills. After all, deflection isn't really an issue.
Thirty seconds later, the tracers become visible to the bombers, and the gunner gets a handy range counter above the planes, one that corresponds precisely to the data in the top-left corner of his firing screen. The bombers have to fly another 10-15 seconds before they can release. Then they have to turn out. If they bank hard, the AI ack chews them to pieces. If they do a rudder turn, they stay in 5" range for another 30 seconds. Remember all the gunner has to do is get close.
Dive-bombing is similar, only that the planes are exposed to 5" ack for a much shorter period, and the solutions are not automatically computed.
In short, putting humans in the 5" position makes for great fun for the gunner; but I do question the merits of allowing it in a scenario, particularly if the other side is required to use torpedoes -- it's neither realistic nor in any way fair.
I don't have an issue with other gun types, but the 5-inchers are really unbalancing, because of their cool radar-fuses and the range computer.
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Daddog, I don't have a problem with someone manning an ack of any caliber if that's what we as a consensus want. However, if we are going to allow someone to lose their plane and then man an ack we ought to have some rules governing it.
One question in my mind is, since we have eliminated radar and bars are we trying to simulate the "fog of war"? I'd like to think that we are as this adds the element of surprise to planning and execution.
Some have argued in the past that while radar was rare in WWII it actually simulates visual spotting and reporting via radio. I agree with this. So, why do we turn it off for this TOD? Well, I prefer having it off as it allows the side with good strategic and tactical planning to have the advantage they deserve.
This advantage could be somewhat negated by allowing observers or gunners to jump around among any friendly fields they choose, reporting enemy movements. Maybe this should be allowed. If so, it should be stated in the rules so that both sides can take advantage of it.
I like war games that have detailed and complex rules. I find them much more satisfying. However, unless we have particpants willing to invest the time needed to fully understand them they will be broken. Therefore it may be best to keep them simple like lose your ride and you are limited to joining as an observer.
My $.05 worth.
AKIron
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Actually Daddog IMO dinger is right. One thing to man field 37mm. Quite another to man fleet 5" guns. Especially against torpedoe planes.
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Well said, Ghosth and above.
I think everyone is looking for a "hard line" rule. If you are downed, you are down. You played a good game, but off to the sidelines and watch the game come to its completion.
It seems kinda unbalancing that the dead are allowed to avenge themselves manning something as brutal as the 5" ack guns and such, especially when the target is a CV and there are lots of gunner positions available for them to man.
My two cents, once your down, shine your halo and pluck your harp as you ascend to heaven :D
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Players should only be able to man buff guns and airfield 37mm after death, IMO. The 5" guns are too dangerous for the reasons mentioned above and it would be too hard to police which gun in the CV task force someone jumped into. I don't have anything wrong with someone manning the smaller guns on the ships, I just don't see how you can enforce that. Is there a way to close off specific guns on the ships?
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I support being able to join buffs as a gunner largely because I have had a LOT of fun doing so after I was shot down, and it helps to stretch a frame for downed pilots to the full two hours. :D
Now, as one of the TBM pilots who was shot up by enemy CV 5" guns the major reason why I got close to the fleet in a TBM is because I had a gunner (whether he joined at the beginning or as a downed pilot really didn't matter) and we got two assists on zekes. When we got within visual range of the CV we started blowing up without dropping our torpedos. No tracers were visible but there were some nearby splashes. So, I would have to agree that the CV 5"ers should be off limits to human gunners as they are excessively brutal (I never knew they were proximity fused until this thread) :rolleyes:.
Perhaps a few simple rules would help, such as:
- if you are killed you are done, period. You may observe but that's all.
- if you bail/ditch and survive you can re-up as a gunner on a buff or a field/CV gun (non-5 inch)
- if you disco before the half-hour limit grab another mount.
- if you disco after the half-hour limit you can re-up as a gunner (your part in the game plan is gone anyways)
The BIGGEST problem will always to have players read, understand and follow the rules. However, I think this will happen eventually but not overnight. (I don't know all of the rules yet :o ).
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i have no problem with manning 37mm and smaller caliber guns after being shot down
but imo the 5 inch are way too unbalancing and should not be allowed.
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Unfortunately the ships guns are an all or nothing deal. No way I can just disable the 5".
Joining as a bomber gunner is something that to the best of my knowledge I have no control over. But, a bomber gunner is not near as unbalanceing as the 5" guns.
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I think it would be better to play it safe. Since we can't be "gun specific" when it comes to manning ship ack we better not allow players to use them. Whoever the Setup CM is for Friday night I will have them "disable" ship ack.
I see no problem with those who have died to man any gunner positions on buffs or in fields.
<S>
Thanks for the feed back. :)
As always, TOD is a work in progress.