Post by: Puma44 on October 17, 2018, 02:14:27 PM
To my mind and most everyone else who flew the F-4E, the absolute worst Emergency Procedure was a Dual PC (Power Control) Failure. Why, requires a short systems ground school. The stabilator in the F-4 was powered by two independent hydraulic PCs, one off each engine to the stab.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKTR0gMv/0-EEFA1-D7-345-A-4-E97-A329-41775-D2-AE2-C2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
If a very rare dual failure occurred, airflow would force the leading edge of the stab to the full down position and result in an uncontrollable nose pitch up of the Phantom. At this point the crew would be along for the ride and have no choice but to eject.
END O GROUND SCHOOL.
Here is a video that shows what would happen with a dual PC failure. The incident in the video was caused by a lost tool socket that rolled into the stick well on takeoff rotation and froze the the stick full aft. Different situation but, same result. Apologies for the advertisement at the beginning,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhajoju_7Qc&feature=share
So, here I am at Osan AB, ROK. It’s February, bone chilling cold, and nasty weather most of the winter. The bone chilling cold required wearing a poopy (anti exposure) suit because most of our flying was over the Yellow Sea in the ACMI (Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation) area. The poopy suit was to prevent freezing to death in the cold ocean water after an ejection.
On this memorable day, we were flying an air to air gunnery mission. We were going to intercept a Flight Systems International (FSI) F-86 carrying a dart tow rig. The Sabre would release the dart out on a 2,000 foot cable, enter a constant turn, and provide us a stable target to shoot with the 20mm, six barrel, 6,000 rounds per minute cannon in the nose of the Phantom. This was an incredibly fun mission. Anyhow, we got in the area early because the Sabre had a mechanical problem and was late taking off. He finally got to the area and had to air abort. So, we went into max endurance mode at 28,000 ft and 280 knots and were about 150 miles out over the ocean. The FSI guys were scrambling to get a second jet coming our way.
As we waited, my backseater (who was one of two I ever flew with that I would have rather had his body weight in extra fuel) was reading the paper. All I could see was newspaper in my mirrors. I’m busy paying attention to our position (now closer to North Vietnam and China than Osan) fuel status and engine health. It was a crystal clear day with huge whitecaps on the water from our altitude. At one point, I remember thinking it wouldn’t be fun to be down there.
Finally, we hear the second FSI jet check in with the GCI controller. As he reached his orbit point, the Sabre pilot reported the dart wouldn’t release from the tow rig. At this point we had enough fuel to stay a few minutes but, there wasn’t another tow jet available to launch. As I’m talking with the tow pilot and GCI controller, I hear snoring over the intercom. A glance in the mirrors reveals a helmet resting on his right side canopy rail. He’s dead asleep! So, I do a sweep of the fuel gages and engine instruments. There’s something amiss. The right engine oil pressure is gradually dropping. If that wasn’t bad enough, the left engine PC presssure was dropping at about the same rate. The two completely independent system gages were nearly matched in position and rate of decrease.
At first, I’m totally perplexed by what is in front of me and can’t figure out what is causing this bizarre picture. So, thinking through it one step at a time, I (not we) am going to most likely lose the left PC. That’s not so bad because there’s still the right PC. But, wait! The engine oil pressure is steadily decreasing and will most likely freeze and kill the right PC.
I’m about to have the dreaded Dual PC Failure. So it’s checklist time. I first go through the Loss of Oil Pressure checklist. Yada, yada, yada, secure the engine and perform a single engine approach and landing. I go through that checklist and don’t plan on being that lucky. I (sort of we) are now 120 miles out over the ocean with both gages getting close to the “0” position. Here’s the very succinct Dual PC Failure checklist:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGtkXqQZ/712-A6-FD2-F1-DF-462-E-90-D4-025-E7-BB2-DA3-A.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
We weren’t equipped with an APU.
In the process of this, I’ve declared an emergency and told the GCI controller I’m headed direct to Osan. Then, I called the SOF (Supervisor Of Flying, a senior pilot in the controller tower whose job is to track takeoff and recovery of all local flying and to assist with emergencies like this). We discuss the situation and he asks if he can read me any checklists and my plan. I advise that all checklists have been covered to include the Pre Ejection checklist. At this point the snoring from the backseat abruptly stops and a nervous WTF is going on question is blurted out. I tell the SOF we are coming straight to the field and will only get one shot at the runway based on the rate both gages are now approaching their empty sides. I tell my now fully alert backseater what’s happening and what the plan is, and to do his individual Pre Ejection checklist.
By now, we’ve been drilling straight at the field and the approach end of the runway. Oh, by the way, single runway we could make a straight in approach to has a huge tailwind. So, we have to got the other end with about 135 degree turn to final from our direction of flight. As we get a visual on the field, a check of the two gages shows an uncomfortably low indication on both. I didn’t look at them any longer. Nothing to be gained at this point.
Gear and flaps down about a mile out, turn to final and roll out about a half mile. The flight controls are still feeling normal. Across the over run, flare, and started the throttles back to idle. As I continued the flare, the stick started losing the normal pressure feel. Touched down, popped the bag (drag chute), and rolled out to the end and EOR (End of Runway) check area. After touchdown, I stop cocked (shut down) the right engine since it was showing zero oil pressure.
We parked, chocked, shut down the other engine, safetied the seats, unbuckled, and climbed down to see what the back of the jet looked like. The belly about midway down the right engine was covered with oil. The left side at about the same point had a huge stream of hydraulic oil. It was now time to go through maintenance debrief and get out of this stinking (literally) poopy suit. I wrote the jet up and put it on a red X (grounded until repaired).
A couple of hours later, I called maintenance for a report on what happened. The left side PC had a material break causing a leak. When asked how much hydraulic fluid was remaining, the answer was zero. The right engine oil system also had an unrelated material failure. It was the same answer when asked much oil was remaining in the engine. Amazed that the right engine didn’t seize, I asked why? The engine oil was and is synthetic. It doesn’t break down and cause seizure instantly like conventional oil. Apparently, the synthetic oil coating in the engine continued to lubricate just long enough to prevent a really bad day. After rotating back home, I started using synthetic oil in my cars and do to this day.
Definitely dodged a bullet this day.
Post by: 1stpar3 on October 17, 2018, 02:47:59 PM
Post by: Puma44 on October 17, 2018, 02:54:48 PM
It was far better letting this guy sleep than distract me with his dribble. :D
Post by: colmbo on October 17, 2018, 03:00:10 PM
glove not clove!
Post by: 1stpar3 on October 17, 2018, 03:09:37 PM
We'll that beats the heck out of my "skydivers glove jamming the elevator on my 206". Well done sure.glove:eek: As in "How did he get a glove stuck in your elevator"----and the Ray Stevens Shiner's Convention song...."How DID you get that Harley onto the High Dive" :D I feel a STORY! if you feel up to it... :uhoh :salute
glove not clove!
Post by: Puma44 on October 17, 2018, 03:44:39 PM
We'll that beats the heck out of my "skydivers glove jamming the elevator on my 206". Well done sure.glove
glove not clove!
Well, that sounds plenty scary enough. I remember you telling that story in the past. Please refresh, at least my memory, and tells us again.
Post by: Vraciu on October 17, 2018, 04:17:35 PM
Post by: Puma44 on October 17, 2018, 06:07:44 PM
Post by: Ciaphas on October 17, 2018, 06:16:05 PM
Thrust you can trust
haha, I've been Egress mechanic for over 20 years.
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Post by: TequilaChaser on October 17, 2018, 07:32:47 PM
Thanks for sharing... Sux that you didn't have an APU, and was running of of huffer start.... I'll let you tell them what huffers are :D
Thanks for sharing
~S~
TC
(Puma, did you ever get the chance to carry any nukes? If so call me...i've got a couple scary memories working with them) LOX incidents as well
Post by: Vraciu on October 17, 2018, 08:02:43 PM
We'll that beats the heck out of my "skydivers glove jamming the elevator on my 206". Well done sure.glove
glove not clove!
“No glove, no love.”
:rofl
:cheers:
Post by: Puma44 on October 17, 2018, 08:24:25 PM
Dang Puma...the way you literally described that sortie almost gave me a "pucker" factor.....LOL
Thanks for sharing... Sux that you didn't have an APU, and was running of of huffer start.... I'll let you tell them what huffers are :D
Thanks for sharing
~S~
TC
(Puma, did you ever get the chance to carry any nukes? If so call me...i've got a couple scary memories working with them) LOX incidents as well
Until the stick got mushy in the flare, I was mostly irritated about not being able to shoot the dart and the way odd mechanic problem. When I felt the stick get soft in the flare, there might have been one pucker pulse but, then we touched down and it was a non issue.
Surely there’s someone else in here that can explain a “huffer”.
Never did nukes in the Phantom. The primary weapon in the F-106 was the nuclear tipped Genie. I never carried one with a warhead. Every year each jet had to fire an inert Genie at a drone and “hit” within scoreable criteria. I was fortunate to live fire three Genies. An amazing experience. Once clear of the F-106 weapons bay, it accelerated instantly to Mach 3 in addition to the over the Mach speed of the Six.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvJL2JG5/4-ED1-C0-AB-8771-4-D5-A-8965-3-DA9-BFA5-F66-D.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
We did no notice nuke weapons load out recalls. Oddly enough, the recalls (initiated by the squadron commander) were usually at O dark thirty Saturday morning after everyone had been in the O’Club the night before. That was less than fun out on the ramp in the winter with a severe hang over and the typical North Dakota wind howling and driving the wind chill down to -20,-30,-40......etc. Then if it was snowing, well, you get the idea.
Post by: Puma44 on October 17, 2018, 08:40:11 PM
When all else fails, Egress prevails!
Thrust you can trust
haha, I've been Egress mechanic for over 20 years.
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You egress guys were a fighter pilot’s best friends, especially this one. If we ever had to “pull the handles” that seat had to fire, sequence, and hang us promptly under a good chute. I’ve always had the greatest respect for you egress troops! Thanks for a job well done! :salute
Post by: Ciaphas on October 17, 2018, 08:45:40 PM
haha pilots are very kind to us.
so far I've put 11 pilots on the ground back home with their family.
we lost one over at Laughlin AFB when I was there. It was a shame that a checklist interruption cost that Captain his life. I was a responder to the crash site, it was very tragic.
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Post by: TequilaChaser on October 17, 2018, 08:48:15 PM
On land on the "Ramp" we actually had to go all the way across the runways away from the flight lines/ramp/hangars when they were first time testing loading nuked headed tomahawks on our 1st S3-B Viking... I was playing Assistant Flight Line Coordinator and Plane Captain at the same time....we only had 6 people qualified to work with nukes...
Edit: had alot more sorties I had to coordinate over but I guess those Navy guys were scared to get their qualifications to work around nukes....sure damned seemed like it but I didn't mind the 2 jumps in rank at the time/moment in those days...
TC
Post by: TequilaChaser on October 17, 2018, 08:51:14 PM
Ty for your service
~S~
TC
Post by: Puma44 on October 17, 2018, 08:53:04 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxyzDNmk/80497-B00-0629-4-B84-B8-EE-5240-BF0-A0582.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The dart after someone skillfully cut the tow cable.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTgf627q/A1-D349-E7-4-F22-43-F0-AF2-A-076-F429000-B0.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Post by: colmbo on October 17, 2018, 10:45:21 PM
The FSI F-86 dart tow rig.
The dart after someone skillfully cut the tow cable.
Appears to have a fairly steep approach angle?
Post by: colmbo on October 17, 2018, 11:05:17 PM
For exit RPM is back to bottom of the green and power nearly to idle, trim for slow flight. As I would roll left a little tap of left rudder would bring the door down so I could latch it then MP to bottom of the green to keep temps up on the decent. I would also start rolling in a bunch to nose down trim for got from 70ish trim to around 170ish. On this iteration I was having to hold the yoke hard forward yet the nose was still wanting to come up. I figured out the yoke would move. WTF?! As I was slowing thinking this thru the airplane was still applying physics and now the nose was up about 45 or so. I did a couple repeats of roll 90 to bring the nose down and worked out a power setting that kept thing stable -- about 70-80 and decent at about 4-500 fpm. I was at 11k so time to think things thru. I called the wife on company channel, she manifested for us, and told her I had a jammed control, I might have to get out of the airplane and to get someone outside to get a eyeball on me and watch where I end up. Her was reply was a simple "Roger". Sounded like Yeagers sister. :) I let approach know I had an issue and soon after the boss came on and we started chatting. I had already spun my head around when this first happened and spotted 4 fingers sticking up jammed between the end of the stab and the right end elevator mass balance. Wedged right in there locking the elevator at about 2/3 UP.
I ended up putting on my gloves, zipping the suit up and yanking on the yoke. At one point I locked well forward (not my happy position at that point) followed right after by full after. I just kept it up until it finally fell out. The only damage we found was a very slight bend in the sheet metal where the glove have been jammed. Pee and a sandwich and away we went. New rule though was jumpers had to be naked so I could check for gloves.
Being a tandem jump the student is in a loaner suit, we think maybe a glove was just stuffed in the suit and came out on exit.
206 rolls pretty nice if you need to. :)
Post by: Puma44 on October 17, 2018, 11:22:07 PM
Appears to have a fairly steep approach angle?
More than likely on takeoff, unless it was jammed like my instance and the dart wouldn’t deploy.
Post by: Puma44 on October 17, 2018, 11:25:09 PM
As for the glove in the elevator I put a tandem pair out last. When the last jumper leaves my normal routine was to roll steeply right to watch the cleat then it was left roll in a spiral to watch the decent.
For exit RPM is back to bottom of the green and power nearly to idle, trim for slow flight. As I would roll left a little tap of left rudder would bring the door down so I could latch it then MP to bottom of the green to keep temps up on the decent. I would also start rolling in a bunch to nose down trim for got from 70ish trim to around 170ish. On this iteration I was having to hold the yoke hard forward yet the nose was still wanting to come up. I figured out the yoke would move. WTF?! As I was slowing thinking this thru the airplane was still applying physics and now the nose was up about 45 or so. I did a couple repeats of roll 90 to bring the nose down and worked out a power setting that kept thing stable -- about 70-80 and decent at about 4-500 fpm. I was at 11k so time to think things thru. I called the wife on company channel, she manifested for us, and told her I had a jammed control, I might have to get out of the airplane and to get someone outside to get a eyeball on me and watch where I end up. Her was reply was a simple "Roger". Sounded like Yeagers sister. :) I let approach know I had an issue and soon after the boss came on and we started chatting. I had already spun my head around when this first happened and spotted 4 fingers sticking up jammed between the end of the stab and the right end elevator mass balance. Wedged right in there locking the elevator at about 2/3 UP.
I ended up putting on my gloves, zipping the suit up and yanking on the yoke. At one point I locked well forward (not my happy position at that point) followed right after by full after. I just kept it up until it finally fell out. The only damage we found was a very slight bend in the sheet metal where the glove have been jammed. Pee and a sandwich and away we went. New rule though was jumpers had to be naked so I could check for gloves.
Being a tandem jump the student is in a loaner suit, we think maybe a glove was just stuffed in the suit and came out on exit.
206 rolls pretty nice if you need to. :)
THAT is a prime example of the golden BB theory! What a great story. Thanks!
Post by: Ciaphas on October 17, 2018, 11:38:19 PM
Thanks for sharing that Ciaphas...like I told puma...i find out or learn something new everyday
Ty for your service
~S~
TC
:salute
Post by: Puma44 on October 18, 2018, 12:21:45 AM
Thank you sir!
haha pilots are very kind to us.
so far I've put 11 pilots on the ground back home with their family.
we lost one over at Laughlin AFB when I was there. It was a shame that a checklist interruption cost that Captain his life. I was a responder to the crash site, it was very tragic.
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Good on ya! That’s an enviable number of lives saved. :salute
What happened with the checklist interruption? If you don’t mind discussing it.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 18, 2018, 12:51:09 AM
https://media.defense.gov/2018/Aug/21/2001956841/-1/-1/0/171120-AETC-LAUGHLINAFB-T38-AIB-NARRATIVE%20REPORT.PDF
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Post by: Puma44 on October 18, 2018, 01:08:53 AM
have a read through the mishap report:
https://media.defense.gov/2018/Aug/21/2001956841/-1/-1/0/171120-AETC-LAUGHLINAFB-T38-AIB-NARRATIVE%20REPORT.PDF
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Wow! Unnecessary tragic loss of life. So sad.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 18, 2018, 01:15:20 AM
Wow! Unnecessary tragic loss of life. So sad.
Agreed, had the pre-launch checklist been finished, his MK16 ESUP seat would have been armed and he would have had thanksgiving with his family.
in my job, gratification is earned through mishap and the importance of our job is learned through tragedy. It's not a job most would want to do but it's still one that needs to be done.
with that being said, we had maybe 7 mechanics that had never been through an ejection, let alone one that was fatal. They learned in that moment that what we do is real and people depend on us to do our job without error.
it was something they needed to experience, they will, for the rest of their careers, cross their T's and dot their I's.
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Post by: Oldman731 on October 18, 2018, 07:26:51 AM
it was something they needed to experience, they will, for the rest of their careers, cross their T's and dot their I's.
"Witness marks (scratches and indentations) on the Arming Lever of the MRP’s ejection seat at the
crash site indicated the arming lever was improperly placed in the “SAFE” mode, preventing selfinitiated
ejection."
Accounts like this make my blood freeze, when I think of how many times I've skipped over arming the parachute in the SR20.
Frozen blood just might spur me to pay better attention next time.
- oldman
Post by: Puma44 on October 18, 2018, 09:34:18 AM
Post by: Mister Fork on October 18, 2018, 10:03:03 AM
OM - you have one of those airplane parachutes for your SR20? Sweet. SR20 is a very nice airplane -and it's fast too (for a single engine non-turbine/non-turbo ). With that 170mph cruise speed, you could fly to Calgary in a single day, and pick up Puma along the way. :D
"Witness marks (scratches and indentations) on the Arming Lever of the MRP’s ejection seat at the
crash site indicated the arming lever was improperly placed in the “SAFE” mode, preventing selfinitiated
ejection."
Accounts like this make my blood freeze, when I think of how many times I've skipped over arming the parachute in the SR20.
Frozen blood just might spur me to pay better attention next time.
- oldman
Great stories Puma and Columbo. :salute
Post by: Puma44 on October 18, 2018, 10:28:19 AM
Come get me Oldman! I’m free for the next couple of weeks. Plus, it only gets colder the longer we wait. 💨❄️🌨❄️💨. I say that based on surviving three winters at Minot, North Dakota. ⛄️
Post by: Nefarious on October 18, 2018, 10:29:36 AM
Lots of great pictures and discussions shared every day.
Thank you for sharing here though!
Post by: Puma44 on October 18, 2018, 10:32:20 AM
Puma, are you a member of the F-4 Phantom group on Facebook?
Lots of great pictures and discussions shared every day.
Thank you for sharing here though!
Yes, of several F-4 groups. Glad to do virtual “hand flying” with you all.
Post by: Nefarious on October 18, 2018, 10:55:20 AM
Yes, of several F-4 groups. Glad to do virtual “hand flying” with you all.
Awesome..there's some great photos being posted right now of Korat F-4Es in the group I'm referring too. There's a few guys who post lengthy history's of certain F-4s, always a great read.
Post by: Oldman731 on October 18, 2018, 12:01:47 PM
OM - you have one of those airplane parachutes for your SR20?
No no no no. I fly an SR20. I don't own an SR20. Used to own a Saratoga (or part of one, at least), but maintenance costs became a significant source of marital discord. Now I'm back to flying rentals.
That said, Ciaphas' story, in particular, is a grim reminder of the value of slavishly adhering to checklists, which is easy to forget.
- oldman
Post by: Vraciu on October 18, 2018, 12:22:25 PM
No no no no. I fly an SR20. I don't own an SR20. Used to own a Saratoga (or part of one, at least), but maintenance costs became a significant source of marital discord. Now I'm back to flying rentals.
That said, Ciaphas' story, in particular, is a grim reminder of the value of slavishly adhering to checklists, which is easy to forget.
- oldman
Which is why I am a huge proponent of running flows then verifying them with the checklist, particularly single-pilot. It gives you two chances to catch an error.
Post by: Mister Fork on October 18, 2018, 12:54:34 PM
Which is why I am a huge proponent of running flows then verifying them with the checklist, particularly single-pilot. It gives you two chances to catch an error.Speaking of checklists, aren;t most checklists today are on ipads or other electronic tablets?
OM - you didn't answer about flying up to Cowtown.... :noid
Post by: Vraciu on October 18, 2018, 01:32:46 PM
Speaking of checklists, aren;t most checklists today are on ipads or other electronic tablets?
OM - you didn't answer about flying up to Cowtown.... :noid
When I flew Falcons we used an electronic checklist on the MFD. For my money putting one on an iPad would be getting too cute by half. I wouldn't like it for many reasons. Generally speaking we still use a laminated paper checklist throughout most of the industry.
Post by: 800nate800 on October 18, 2018, 02:15:12 PM
Post by: Vraciu on October 18, 2018, 03:06:53 PM
I showed up to one of my Aviation classes back in high school with a ASA E6B and i got asked what it was...... my instructor laughed.
My first instructor, Marine Phantom guy, always reminded us that the batteries on a paper E6B never wear out.
Years later when I was an instructor electronic E6Bs were all the rage. The guy who did my PPL checkride was still a DPE. He was known to "fail" the batteries on a ride. All my students knew the old fashioned way so we played a joke on Darth Vader. We collected a dozen electronic E6Bs and stuffed them in the flight bag of my candidate. When the batteries "failed" my student reached back and grabbed another electronic E6B. When that was immediately "failed" he grabbed another. After he had hauled up the fourth or fifth one Darth said, "All right smart ass, no more electronics."
We had a good laugh over that one.
Post by: Puma44 on October 18, 2018, 03:19:16 PM
Post by: Ciaphas on October 18, 2018, 03:35:43 PM
Diligent use of a checklist, whether electronic, laminated or good old fashioned paper, is the best method of preventing a bad day.
Agreed
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Post by: streakeagle on October 18, 2018, 11:10:53 PM
I had geared up to go the USAF Academy, but with my vision status, I never applied. Instead I briefly went to West Point, but resigned after 3 months, a couple of weeks after the first semester started when I realized the stress was just too much for me without the carrot of being a pilot dangling in front of me. I ended up being a submarine sonar tech for 8 years instead. Not quite equivalent to zooming around at Mach 1+, but still quite the adventure.
Post by: Vraciu on October 18, 2018, 11:20:48 PM
You flew the F-106 and the F-4... awesome! I was born at MacDill AFB in Tampa, FL in 1968. I grew up with F-4s and UH-1s flying over my head almost every day. I watched F-16s replace F-4s starting in 1979. I had wanted to be an F-4 pilot, but realized the F-15 would be the equivalent by the time I graduated high school (1986). My vision went south in 7th grade and was below back-seater standards by 10th grade. I would have done anything to fly fighters. The best I have done is Cessnas and Pipers. Thank goodness for modern PC combat flight sims: most of the fun of the real thing (minus the g-forces and force feedback) and none of the scary life-threatening/life-ending problems... hit reset, try again!
I had geared up to go the USAF Academy, but with my vision status, I never applied. Instead I briefly went to West Point, but resigned after 3 months, a couple of weeks after the first semester started when I realized the stress was just too much for me without the carrot of being a pilot dangling in front of me. I ended up being a submarine sonar tech for 8 years instead. Not quite equivalent to zooming around at Mach 1+, but still quite the adventure.
Same here, except my vision went south in 8th grade (on my birthday—ugh). I went to USCGA having always dreamed of flying F-15s. Falcons seems to be a good enough replacement. When I got laughed at putting pilot on my dream sheet I asked to leave. Might have been a mistake, but I have 10,000 hours burning kerosene that says it wasn’t a total loss.
Your story resonates with me on every level. It still hurts sometimes. :salute
Post by: Puma44 on October 18, 2018, 11:33:34 PM
You flew the F-106 and the F-4... awesome! I was born at MacDill AFB in Tampa, FL in 1968. I grew up with F-4s and UH-1s flying over my head almost every day. I watched F-16s replace F-4s starting in 1979. I had wanted to be an F-4 pilot, but realized the F-15 would be the equivalent by the time I graduated high school (1986). My vision went south in 7th grade and was below back-seater standards by 10th grade. I would have done anything to fly fighters. The best I have done is Cessnas and Pipers. Thank goodness for modern PC combat flight sims: most of the fun of the real thing (minus the g-forces and force feedback) and none of the scary life-threatening/life-ending problems... hit reset, try again!
I had geared up to go the USAF Academy, but with my vision status, I never applied. Instead I briefly went to West Point, but resigned after 3 months, a couple of weeks after the first semester started when I realized the stress was just too much for me without the carrot of being a pilot dangling in front of me. I ended up being a submarine sonar tech for 8 years instead. Not quite equivalent to zooming around at Mach 1+, but still quite the adventure.
Those of us with that flying itch have to scratch it however we can.
It’s amazing how far the eyesight issue has changed. When I started USAF pilot training, it was made very clear that if any eye scarring from surgery was detected on an annual flight physical, immediate permanent grounding would occur.
Now, routine eye surgery is approved to achieve 20/20 vision. A family friend had surgery during college, achieved 20/20 uncorrected vision, went to USAF pilot training, graduated, and is now in C-17 training school.
Before retiring from the USAF, I worked some of the staffing to approve a small select number of Weapons System Officers to wear soft contacts on an experimental basis. My how things have changed.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 18, 2018, 11:52:54 PM
The B-52's seat was a fixed seat as well but with the mission it has, height requirements can be and are often wavered because the seat has two main directions of travel (up, down, forward and back).
The MB seats I work on (MB MK 16 ESUP (T-38) and the MB MK 16 (T-6 Texan II) have a fantastic seat that allows for a wide range of height requirements as the seat bucket travels up and down on two catapult beams while the head rest remains at a fixed position in the cockpit regardless of seat bucket position.
oh and the MB Mk series is super maintenance friendly where the ACES system was poorly designed with regards to MX upkeep.
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Post by: Wolfala on October 19, 2018, 12:07:11 AM
No no no no. I fly an SR20. I don't own an SR20. Used to own a Saratoga (or part of one, at least), but maintenance costs became a significant source of marital discord. Now I'm back to flying rentals.
That said, Ciaphas' story, in particular, is a grim reminder of the value of slavishly adhering to checklists, which is easy to forget.
- oldman
I have a SR-20 and a Supercharged SR-22. I’ve read too many reports with the arming pin kept in when it was a within envelope pull. Checklists.....checklists.... checklists....
Post by: 1stpar3 on October 19, 2018, 12:47:05 AM
You flew the F-106 and the F-4... awesome! I was born at MacDill AFB in Tampa, FL in 1968. I grew up with F-4s and UH-1s flying over my head almost every day. I watched F-16s replace F-4s starting in 1979. I had wanted to be an F-4 pilot, but realized the F-15 would be the equivalent by the time I graduated high school (1986). My vision went south in 7th grade and was below back-seater standards by 10th grade. I would have done anything to fly fighters. The best I have done is Cessnas and Pipers. Thank goodness for modern PC combat flight sims: most of the fun of the real thing (minus the g-forces and force feedback) and none of the scary life-threatening/life-ending problems... hit reset, try again!Same with me...plus a SEVERE knee injury...DAM Soccer :furious Love this GAME :rock
I had geared up to go the USAF Academy, but with my vision status, I never applied. Instead I briefly went to West Point, but resigned after 3 months, a couple of weeks after the first semester started when I realized the stress was just too much for me without the carrot of being a pilot dangling in front of me. I ended up being a submarine sonar tech for 8 years instead. Not quite equivalent to zooming around at Mach 1+, but still quite the adventure.
Post by: Mister Fork on October 19, 2018, 05:41:12 PM
:banana:
So I set off to become a military pilot as a kid and teeneager. In Canada, if you join the air cadets, and do your glider and then power school, if your vision is also good, pass both well, and you weren’t a moron, it almost guaranteed a ticket into direct entry officer for military pilot school.
So I joined the air cadets in 1982, carrot dragging me – well, I was dragging the carrot stick along because I wanted to be a pilot so bad. Accumulated almost 10 hours right seat in a 172. Couple hours in gliders. Life was looking up! :cool:
Then forking Top forking Gun came out. (FORK YOU TOM FORKING CRUIZE!) And the competition for the flying seats skyrocketed as every tom dick and harry suddenly wanted to be a fighter pilot (groan) and hook up with the blond flight instructor. Instead of a typical school competition of 5 or 6 cadets, I had 32. Just for glider. :furious
Still managed finished 3rd overall, but we were only allocated 2 seats at glider school. And those two tards were the "TOP GUN" fans (groan). My sister was also a glider pilot instructor at the school (a good one) and they still had hope for a cancellation. She helped me out - just in case of a late cancellation, I did some post-exam tests, threw me up in gliders with instructors. I was a natural they said - passion showed in my flying and stick handling.. It was looking good if someone dropped out. Got 4 more hours in student seat, and several more in a 172.
They had me do my medical to get my gliders permit just in case... :x
Strong protan colour blindness. I didn’t even know I was colour blind or what it even meant. What the hell is ‘protan’. Turns out, I can’t tell the difference between low colour greens and reds. Fork. My dad took me in for my medical. He said I looked like it was a combination I found out at age 4 that Santa Clause didn’t exist and I was adopted all in one when they said I was colorblind. I did a ‘lantern’ test – it meant I could still fly gliders and small single engine airplanes VFR, but my chance a career as a pilot in any capacity was essentially zero. (sigh) Received my gliders permit – but the flying balloons had all popped. :(
Even when I joined the military as army signals 2 years later, I was helped out on my colour test. Tester gave me a break and passed me anyways. 10 years army sigspig was still a great experience :aok
Now, with over 20’000 hours of flight simulation on dozens of combat flight simulators, give me a C-47 I’ll put it on a turning carrier any day. One eye closed. In my pajamas.
:airplane:
Post by: DaveBB on October 19, 2018, 06:10:08 PM
Those of us with that flying itch have to scratch it however we can.
It’s amazing how far the eyesight issue has changed. When I started USAF pilot training, it was made very clear that if any eye scarring from surgery was detected on an annual flight physical, immediate permanent grounding would occur.
Now, routine eye surgery is approved to achieve 20/20 vision. A family friend had surgery during college, achieved 20/20 uncorrected vision, went to USAF pilot training, graduated, and is now in C-17 training school.
Before retiring from the USAF, I worked some of the staffing to approve a small select number of Weapons System Officers to wear soft contacts on an experimental basis. My how things have changed.
The doctor that did my Lasik eye surgery was a flight surgeon for the USAF and did tests and check-ups on USAF pilots to see if high g loads impacted lasik surgery. This was in 2009.
Post by: Vraciu on October 19, 2018, 07:38:10 PM
The doctor that did my Lasik eye surgery was a flight surgeon for the USAF and did tests and check-ups on USAF pilots to see if high g loads impacted lasik surgery. This was in 2009.
The bigger issue isn’t LASIK itself but retinal detachment. The shape of the eyeball for those of us who are nearsighted increases the risk of suffering this event. One can imagine what 9-G exposure is like and probably still never grasp it without living through it. I guess the risk must not be as much of a problem as originally thought.
The Navy is okay with PRK and has been for a long time, they were just a few years too late to help me.
I wound up doing LASIK and this got me bounced from going back into the Coast Guard as a Reservist. Despite 20-15 vision in both eyes one of my flaps has a tiny wrinkle. I can’t even tell, but it was enough to deny me a LASIK waiver. Ironic.
Too bad they don’t let guys like me fly KC-10s and the like to free up other pilots—or at least reduce their deployment lengths. I’d do that as a Reservist in a heartbeat.
Post by: Puma44 on October 19, 2018, 09:53:12 PM
It’s tragic the military isn’t more flexible. They’ve come a long way but, much farther to go, especially with the big shortages in the current force.
Post by: icepac on October 19, 2018, 10:00:22 PM
My upper legs are two long from hip to knee. Would lose them in case of an ejection.
Post by: icepac on October 20, 2018, 10:51:04 AM
Post by: Shuffler on October 20, 2018, 11:51:54 AM
Never written "two" meaning "to" before.
... or even "too"? None of us are perfect. I stand as an example.
Post by: 1stpar3 on October 21, 2018, 05:33:51 PM