Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JOACH1M on November 18, 2018, 11:13:45 AM
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Very sad day.
RIP :salute
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/2-dead-in-vintage-world-war-ii-fighter-crash-after-flyover/ar-BBPOksa?li=BBnbfcL
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Any more details on who owned it?
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Warbird Alley will have details shortly.
http://www.warbirdalley.com/news.htm#latest
(https://media-fox7austin-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/media.fox7austin.com/media.fox7austin.com/photo/2018/11/17/KTBC%20Fredericksburg%20plane%20crash%2011172018_1542500247001.jpg_6414722_ver1.0_640_360.jpg)
https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/texas/amp/World-War-II-era-plane-crashes-into-an-apartment-13401941.php
https://www.kxan.com/news/texas/2-dead-vintage-plane-destroyed-in-fredericksburg-crash/1603904380
Edit in:
https://www.worldwarbirdnews.com/2018/11/18/two-killed-in-p-51d-mustang-pecos-bill-crash-in-texas/
(https://www.worldwarbirdnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/P-51-Pecos-Bill-Photo-Christopher-Ebdon-CC-BY-NC-SA-2.0.jpg)
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Any more details on who owned it?
Here's a video shot of it entering a loop. I can't see it well enough on my phone to identify it.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc13.com/amp/vintage-world-war-ii-plane-crashes-near-texas-apartments/4709234/?espv=1
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.voanews.com/amp/4663409.html?espv=1
Edit in:
Pecos Bill. P-51D (s/n 44-74445) NL4132A.
http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/
(http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/avi_images/home/PecosBill.jpg)
Cowden Ward Jr from July 1 2017: "I have owned and flown my P-51 Mustang 'Pecos Bill' to honor and provide over 175 complimentary flights for our WWII veterans........what a great honor and truly a touching moment each flight has been .... ". Cowden and his veteran passenger were lost Nov 17 2018 in Pecos Bill. Thanks you Cowden for touching so many lives and bringing smiles to faces of our veterans.
https://www.worldwarbirdnews.com/2018/11/18/two-killed-in-p-51d-mustang-pecos-bill-crash-in-texas/
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The museums in Fredricksburg are worth seeing.
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Sad, :pray, here a photo i still have on my phone as I've seen it on 12 September , 2015 at Fort Worth air show.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4807/44128876820_fc077a92ac_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2aew2DN) (https://flic.kr/p/2aew2DN)
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God what a shame :frown:
Such a beautiful aircraft and great men.
Prayers go out to all involved with the pilots.
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Warbird Alley says:
17 November: A North American P-51D Mustang, N4132A (s/n 44-74445)("Pecos Bill"), crashed in a parking lot next to an apartment complex near Fredericksburg, Texas, USA, after an apparent engine failure. Owner/pilot Cowden Ward and his WWII-veteran passenger and former B-17 bombardier, Vince Losada, were killed. The aircraft had participated in a flyover as part of a history program for a nearby museum, and the owner was known to give rides to WWII veterans. [Local news report>>]
https://www.kxan.com/news/texas/pilot-who-honored-veterans-id-d-in-deadly-fredericksburg-plane-crash/1603904380
Vince Losada:
https://www.kxan.com/news/local-news/loved-ones-remember-wwii-veteran-killed-in-fredericksburg-plane-crash/1607617993
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How over time do the ongoing accidents with war birds effect if the FAA will continue to allow them to fly?
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To date, nothing to do with age caused the crash.
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My father spent a few years flying cargo with Beech 18 in the 80's and the reqs from the FAA were stringent due to age. So some parts were new creation while others were salvaged from air frames kept for just that. I flew with a collector of antique planes and low budget warbirds a few times my father was friends with. When he bought T28, he bought 3 so he could keep one flying by having the other two deconstructed and two refurbished engines in storage. To have his PT19 passed off air worthy, about the only original parts left were the info plates. He still ditched it in a corn field the first day it was out of the hanger, he was a so so pilot but, he was a millionaire retired IBM engineer. He bought the land from the farmer on the spot and had him help put up a quick barn over the PT19 to hide it from the FAA and cut down all the corn to cover up the landing mishap. He let the farmer keep growing corn on the rest of the acreage and profit from the harvest. Then paid him to bulldoze a dirt strip up to the barn the next spring when he flew it home after all the stealth repairs were finished. Having money and it being the 80's you could get away with that.
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My father spent a few years flying cargo with Beech 18 in the 80's and the reqs from the FAA were stringent due to age. So some parts were new creation while others were salvaged from air frames kept for just that. I flew with a collector of antique planes and low budget warbirds a few times my father was friends with. When he bought T28, he bought 3 so he could keep one flying by having the other two deconstructed and two refurbished engines in storage. To have his PT19 passed off air worthy, about the only original parts left were the info plates. He still ditched it in a corn field the first day it was out of the hanger, he was a so so pilot but, he was a millionaire retired IBM engineer. He bought the land from the farmer on the spot and had him help put up a quick barn over the PT19 to hide it from the FAA and cut down all the corn to cover up the landing mishap. He let the farmer keep growing corn on the rest of the acreage and profit from the harvest. Then paid him to bulldoze a dirt strip up to the barn the next spring when he flew it home after all the stealth repairs were finished. Having money and it being the 80's you could get away with that.
Cool story! :rock
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How over time do the ongoing accidents with war birds effect if the FAA will continue to allow them to fly?
Many of these planes are remanufactured. About the only thing original is the data plate.
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Consider... Piston engines are nowhere near as reliable as turbines. The Merlins being used today are light years more durable than the original for a number of reasons (aftermarket mods like improved oil and cooling systems, reduced horsepower due to lower octane fuel, etc.) but they’re still a high performance piston. There are plenty of non-warbird piston crashes out there. It’s the nature of the beast.
The bigger issue for me is the pilot’s age. As bad as I feel in my forties I can’t imagine pulling Gs in a P-51 at age 73. I’m more afraid of sitting behind a 73-year old pilot than I am flying a 73-year old restored warbird.
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They definitely weren't pulling any Gs on that flight. 90+ year old in the back. Looks like the plane either ran out of gas, had an engine failure, or got too slow and spun in.
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They definitely weren't pulling any Gs on that flight. 90+ year old in the back. Looks like the plane either ran out of gas, had an engine failure, or got too slow and spun in.
Incorrect. They were performing aerobatics before the accident. The crash occurred later as they were returning to the Gillespie County Airport (T82). Cause still unknown.
It’s just as likely the guy became incapacitated and drilled it in. There’s no way to know. The investigation will tell us if the engine was producing power when it hit. That’ll be the big clue allowing for rampant speculation based on something that’s at least factual.
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Incorrect. They were performing aerobatics before the accident. The crash occurred later as they were returning to the Gillespie County Airport (T82). Cause still unknown.
It’s just as likely the guy became incapacitated and drilled it in. There’s no way to know. The investigation will tell us if the engine was producing power when it hit. That’ll be the big clue allowing for rampant speculation based on something that’s at least factual.
Maybe a 1g roll. Definitely weren't looping. Like I said, the guy in the back was over 90 years old.
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Maybe a 1g roll. Definitely weren't looping. Like I said, the guy in the back was over 90 years old.
They were doing more than just a 1G roll.
As I said, I'm more afraid of a 73-year old pilot that a 73-year old airplane, especially when the SHTF.
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Plane looks way too intact to have been "drilled in".
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Plane looks way too intact to have been "drilled in".
I guess you are unaware of how strong a rear fuselage/tail assembly generally is.
He dumped it in the complex parking lot nose first. The tail came off and flew into the covered parking area. I’d define that as drilling it in.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X7BwmmOCvus/W_Cqsf81UeI/AAAAAAACWn4/ByGbkbBZBucJCkxWKerTDXYUPZT8vcU6gCLcBGAs/s1600/KathrynsReport.jpg)
(https://media.kvue.com/assets/KENS/images/615578580/615578580_360x203.jpg)
“[W]ay too intact...”
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I'm totally aware of mustang damage scenarios as I used to work at the paul garber restoration facility.
You are implying that the guy was too old and got in over his head doing aerobatics and "drilled it in" when witnesses stated it was flying low with the engine sputtering.
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So many “expert” opinions and yet, no facts.
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So many “expert” opinions and yet, no facts.
So true.
I hear CNN is hiring folks. :old:
Coogan
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I'm totally aware of mustang damage scenarios as I used to work at the paul garber restoration facility.
Well you’re not applying that knowledge here. Restoration to static display is one thing. Accident investigation is another.
You are implying that the guy was too old and got in over his head doing aerobatics and "drilled it in" when witnesses stated it was flying low with the engine sputtering.
1) I implied no such thing.
2) Witnesses are notoriously unreliable.
I was responding to the notion that an “old” warbird could be the problem by pointing out that I have more faith in a 73-year old rebuilt P-51 than a 73-year old pilot.
He drilled it into a parking lot on the return flight to T82 after doing aerobatics at a commemoration for the Nimitz Museum. Why? We may never find out. But let us not pretend the guy didn’t do exactly what I said here. Something went bad and he lost the airplane. It’s as simple as that.
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So many “expert” opinions and yet, no facts.
I’ve stated the facts. He lost the airplane—as evidenced by the fact it got mashed into a parking lot. We may never find out why. That area is hilly and full of Live Oak and Juniper trees so it may have been a no-win scenario.
Warbirds are risky machines by nature. But so is anything else. It’s a matter of mitigation and determining if it’s worth it to fly one based on that risk. Should they be banned from flying because of the occasional sensational crash? No.
So, yeah, that’s my expert opinion.
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So true.
I hear CNN is hiring folks. :old:
Coogan
This comment in no way applies to what I’ve said. Quite the opposite.
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No need to get in a defensive crouch.
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No need to get in a defensive crouch.
No need to go with the ad hominems either.
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:rofl