Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Wolfala on February 23, 2019, 03:30:23 PM

Title: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Wolfala on February 23, 2019, 03:30:23 PM
https://abc7.com/crews-responding-to-cargo-jet-crash-in-trinity-bay/5153229/

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/GTI3591/history/20190223/1608Z/KMIA/KIAH/tracklog
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Vraciu on February 23, 2019, 05:58:43 PM
One of the guys I used to fly with was roomies in flight school with the Captain. 

The Atlas family is very sad today.    :salute
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Shuffler on February 23, 2019, 07:01:31 PM
That is just down the road from my home. My Wife showed me the news while I was in the scenario.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Busher on February 23, 2019, 07:16:05 PM
Let's say a prayer for those lost and for their families.

And please, this time could we please not speculate, and instead just wait until the NTSB completes their work.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Oldman731 on February 23, 2019, 11:39:34 PM
Let's say a prayer for those lost and for their families.

And please, this time could we please not speculate, and instead just wait until the NTSB completes their work.


Agreed.

- oldman
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: DaveBB on February 24, 2019, 12:17:14 PM
The plane seemed to be gliding in a controlled descent from the 5 seconds of video available.  Multiple engine failure from unknown causes is my guess (bird strike, fuel starvation, etc).  The depth of Trinity Bay probably played a large part in the scenario.  Several hundred thousand pounds coming to a halt immediately due to the mud.  That cargo surely shifted positions, right into the cockpit.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Misery on February 24, 2019, 01:02:00 PM
Animal flies for that company. He was not on that flight.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Puma44 on February 24, 2019, 04:36:49 PM
Let's say a prayer for those lost and for their families.

And please, this time could we please not speculate, and instead just wait until the NTSB completes their work.

Ditto!

And then an expert chimes on in.

The plane seemed to be gliding in a controlled descent from the 5 seconds of video available.  Multiple engine failure from unknown causes is my guess (bird strike, fuel starvation, etc).  The depth of Trinity Bay probably played a large part in the scenario.  Several hundred thousand pounds coming to a halt immediately due to the mud.  That cargo surely shifted positions, right into the cockpit.

Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Busher on February 24, 2019, 04:40:36 PM
Ditto!

And then an expert chimes on in.

Ya, tiresome isn't it. Puma, you would well know that 767's cannot be made to descend at 7000 ft/min in the approach phase of the flight.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Vraciu on February 24, 2019, 04:44:03 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Puma44 on February 25, 2019, 10:54:06 AM
Ya, tiresome isn't it. Puma, you would well know that 767's cannot be made to descend at 7000 ft/min in the approach phase of the flight.

Yes indeed!  Something went very wrong.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: DaveBB on February 25, 2019, 03:56:48 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Vraciu on February 25, 2019, 06:31:02 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Maverick on February 26, 2019, 10:05:02 AM
My opinion is that gravity brought the plane down.   :neener:
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: SysError on February 26, 2019, 11:51:57 AM
.... just wait until the NTSB completes their work.

Is there an average or "target" timeline on when they might be done?

Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Shuffler on February 26, 2019, 01:39:44 PM
Is there an average or "target" timeline on when they might be done?

They do not pressure themselves with limitations. They will be done when they are done.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Busher on February 26, 2019, 02:03:10 PM
Is there an average or "target" timeline on when they might be done?

No not really but I believe the recovery of the CVR and FDR will prove to be very helpful.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: DaveBB on February 26, 2019, 03:13:46 PM
This very topic on Airliners.net has over 700 replies.  Has the aircraft rate of decent, flight path over Trinity Bay, crew coms, air traffic control coms.  Feel free to wait for the NTSB report.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Shuffler on February 26, 2019, 04:26:18 PM
This very topic on Airliners.net has over 700 replies.  Has the aircraft rate of decent, flight path over Trinity Bay, crew coms, air traffic control coms.  Feel free to wait for the NTSB report.

None of that means much in the arena of what caused the crash.  There is even a few seconds of video with the plane steep nose down and the water splash. None of that tells why.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Vraciu on February 26, 2019, 05:48:45 PM
They do not pressure themselves with limitations. They will be done when they are done.

They'll come up with a preliminary report relatively soon--30 to 90 days is my best guess.   Won't be the final word though.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Vraciu on February 26, 2019, 05:49:37 PM
None of that means much in the arena of what caused the crash.  There is even a few seconds of video with the plane steep nose down and the water splash. None of that tells why.

I still haven't seen the video.  The only one out there so labeled seems to show a Guardian helo hovering and nothing else.    :headscratch:
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Vraciu on February 26, 2019, 05:57:01 PM
This very topic on Airliners.net has over 700 replies.  Has the aircraft rate of decent, flight path over Trinity Bay, crew coms, air traffic control coms.  Feel free to wait for the NTSB report.

Great place to download photos.


 :banana:
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Puma44 on February 26, 2019, 06:38:23 PM
None of that means much in the arena of what caused the crash.  There is even a few seconds of video with the plane steep nose down and the water splash. None of that tells why.

This ^ spot on Shuffler.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: MiloMorai on February 26, 2019, 11:00:01 PM
Was it a Boeing or an Airbus that had some kind of software glitch that caused pitch downs?
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Shuffler on February 27, 2019, 12:04:53 AM
I still haven't seen the video.  The only one out there so labeled seems to show a Guardian helo hovering and nothing else.    :headscratch:

I have not seen the physical video either. It is referenced in reports as a security video showing the later part of the event.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Vraciu on February 27, 2019, 12:06:26 AM
Was it a Boeing or an Airbus that had some kind of software glitch that caused pitch downs?

Egypt Air had a problem with “pitch downs” on the 767 you could blame on “programming” to steal a term.   :bolt:
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Vraciu on February 27, 2019, 12:08:04 AM
I have not seen the physical video either. It is referenced in reports as a security video showing the later part of the event.

Yeah.  I read it was from a prison surveillance camera.    Whew.   Can’t even die in privacy to preserve some dignity any more.......
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Oldman731 on February 27, 2019, 07:53:27 AM
Was it a Boeing or an Airbus that had some kind of software glitch that caused pitch downs?


It was the new and improved 737:  https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/11/indonesia-737-crash-caused-by-safety-feature-change-pilots-werent-told-of/

- oldman
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Shuffler on March 07, 2019, 05:28:12 AM
I have seen 2 videos now. Both from security cameras. This shows the best view.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/final-moments-before-amazon-prime-air-plane-crashed-in-texas-captured-on-video
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Puma44 on March 07, 2019, 09:44:19 AM
I have seen 2 videos now. Both from security cameras. This shows the best view.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/final-moments-before-amazon-prime-air-plane-crashed-in-texas-captured-on-video

That’s a significant descent rate.  Scary.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Toad on March 10, 2019, 06:49:10 PM

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/crew-recording-on-doomed-amazon-jet-reflect-loss-of-control/

Quote
It went from 5,850 to 1,325 feet, the last position captured by the website, in about nine seconds, which is many times faster than a normal descent rate.

Yikes! 4525/9 = 502.7 ft/sec. That's a bit over 30,000 feet per minute.

Now that's not off the FDR; that's "according to a flight plot provided by tracker FlightRadar24".

I'm finding it a bit hard to believe. That flight plot may have issues.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Shuffler on March 10, 2019, 07:43:22 PM
I am sure the instruments were not designed to eve see the type of descent that occurred. They probably went on the momo.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Vraciu on March 10, 2019, 09:45:35 PM
Preliminary CVR leak consistent with loss of control.   This video is chilling.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=acJpCjRayw8

https://www.rt.com/usa/453320-video-texas-plane-crash/

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/NTSB-Atlas-Air-crew-might-have-lost-control-18-13664793.php
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Puma44 on March 11, 2019, 10:14:16 AM
I am sure the instruments were not designed to eve see the type of descent that occurred. They probably went on the momo.

No doubt, the black box will be quite revealing.  The one video that shows the jet in a steep, rapid descent looks similar to a procedural loss of pressurization emergency descent from high altitude.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Vraciu on March 11, 2019, 02:11:37 PM
No doubt, the black box will be quite revealing.  The one video that shows the jet in a steep, rapid descent looks similar to a procedural loss of pressurization emergency descent from high altitude.

Yeah, but they weren’t that high when they started diving. 
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: noman on March 11, 2019, 04:02:01 PM
I believe they we 40 miles out @ an altitude of about 12k on final approach to IAH Runway 26L. Me and my wife had just driven past Anahauc as this happened. Did not see the plane as we were farther North driving on I-10 but saw multiple emergency vehicles on I-10 heading towards Anahauc. Went Duck hunting several times this past year where it crashed.
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: saggs on March 12, 2019, 08:59:52 PM
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/DCA19MA086.aspx?fbclid=IwAR1621OozOEbxGnG6HRCpOsQnij-bBxcql4Ds9u-DuhETTZdo_OuBQM7lLY

NTSB release.

Important bit:

"Also, about this time, the FDR data indicated that some small vertical accelerations consistent with the airplane entering turbulence. Shortly after, when the airplane’s indicated airspeed was steady about 230 knots, the engines increased to maximum thrust, and the airplane pitch increased to about 4° nose up. The airplane then pitched nose down over the next 18 seconds to about 49° in response to nose-down elevator deflection. The stall warning (stick shaker) did not activate.

FDR, radar, and ADS-B data indicated that the airplane entered a rapid descent on a heading of 270°, reaching an airspeed of about 430 knots. A security camera video (figure 4) captured the airplane in a steep, generally wings-level attitude until impact with the swamp. FDR data indicated that the airplane gradually pitched up to about 20 degrees nose down during the descent."
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 10:28:05 PM
Aloha Snackbar Demo?
Title: Re: Amazon Prime (Atlas Cargo) 767 down
Post by: saggs on March 23, 2019, 08:56:07 PM
Aloha Snackbar Demo?

At this point, it's as valid of theory as any.

Be interesting whether they know yet if the full throttle and elevator pitch down were commanded or not.