Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: air_guard on June 22, 2001, 11:53:00 AM
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Ive been using it more now since the perk points came out because the dweeb factor :D. Anyway it`s a pretty good plane to fly if u have patience and keep up the speed. On the other side if u accidently happens to go into a furball your chances isnt really good if u hang on that turnfiter spiral going on, the vertical fite is the thing.
And here is my point the 190d9,la7,p47-11 and the tiffie is pretty much the same thing why is the fu4c perked vs them ?.
ohhhhh guess i get some toejame coming in now but thats the way i feel. (hmmm urrggg well i shouda mentionded the loving nik but then CREAMO "fat drunk or a gangbanger" is going to pick on me agian and i dont want that to happen :D)
REMOVE THE PERKS FOR T_____E FU4C please ?
airguard
PS !
cant answer any posts until monday cause im gonna get increadeble drunk over a long time in a nice land called Denmark (København ). (good beer, great chicks, and always feel welcome in that country :D )
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: air_guard ]
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its the cannons baby.
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what ??????????
airguard YOU cant aford the 8 perk for c hog ???????????????????????????????
i say perk the whole plane set !!!!!
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3200 perk points for sale.
Drex
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I think it was perked more because of usage, than it was because it's -that- much better than some other plane. Of course, unless we're given an official explanation of its perkiness, it's all just speculation as to whether it was too uber or just over used.
Personally, unperk it. More of them out there means more perkies for the rest of us! Shoot one down and it's almost 3 points if you're in a Spit V! ;)
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Last count back in March or April, Blitz had over 4000 perkies, wonder what hes got today? He never uses them...
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Yeah, but he got almost all of them from attacking the Grunt Training Facility Rip. ;)
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Yeah, but he got almost all of them from attacking the Grunt Training Facility Rip. ;)
-SW
Negative. :)
I might add he's the only guy I know that could take out AA at a small field with a P51D in two passes, without dying, and do it consistently, with guns only..before they implemented this manable acks and "easy-acks" they have now.
VMF-323's only MoH winner for some incredible stuff this guy does.
He is never interested in facilities, only in field captures.
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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Looking at the plane vs plane kills, F4U-1C has a 2.4 to 1 kill ratio versus all other planes.
There's no other plane that even comes close to this ratio. Most are around 1v1.
Even the much maligned N1K2 only has a 1.2 to 1 ratio.
Is it the pilots or is it the cannons?
Hard to say.
Nexus
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Give the Spit Mark V the C wing and I hazard a guess that its K/D ratio might increase.
The online environment is friendly to a snapshot erratic move ,moreso than real world.
Your Mileage might vary I know mine does. Maybe I need a tune up ?
:D
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Baddawg ]
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The chog is better than most planes in the planeset. Look at the official polls conducted at the end of each tour. The AH community very heavily to the chog!!!0
The simple fact is chog was the #1 used plane every tour by a considerable margin and often also the one with the highgerst k/d.
People are not idiots and they fly the plane that the feel they can do best in, and the largerst number of people chose one plane in particular the chog.
I dont care what any of you pompous and arrogant, "I ate chogs for lunch in my C202" people say, the plane was a diddlying menace and a freak, especially if a dozen of them were everywhere at once which was often the case before. Combine that the at with its BS 600lbs underweight FM issiues now ackgnowleged by PYRO, and the plane was an uber dwweeb ride.
And yes I could kill chogs too I dont think I ever had a negative k/d rate against them in my 109s except for my first tour, so dont say some stupid garbage like I should just learn to fly better against them. The point is they are a freaks with poor FM, bizzare gunnery ability and are plain disguisting.
Its great that they are perked and * poits is kinda ok and fair value.
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Originally posted by Baddawg:
The online environment is friendly to a snapshot erratic move ,moreso than real world.
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Baddawg ]
Only if you're not on a 56k modem, we have to earn our shots! ;)
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I admit it's kind of strange.
The best explanation I heard around was it's overall usage was UNUSUALLY high around people. And I've been watching around all the debate and slug outs, nastiness amongst people about the C-Hog.
C-Hog is a kind of mysterious plane...
1) before the perk, it's usage was indeed VERY high..
2) people claim the cannons were outrageously powerful. No one was able to sufficiently prove this factor to be true.
3) on the other hand, though nothing was proved, it's results of performance in MA was also very successful, and the numbers of C-hog users were overwhelming.
4) if, it doesn't SPECIFICALLY have ANY kind of advantage over other planes, then why is it used so much? The opponents of "C-Hog guns = lasers" theory were also unable to give sufficient reason to this trend. :confused:
Mystery plane indeed..
If it really is no better than other planes, why did people use it so much? If the C-Hog guns were unreasonably strong, couldn't HTC just adjust the power instead of perk it? Why is the perk there? :eek:
The heart of this mystery..
*WHY DO PEOPLE REALLY USE IT SO MUCH?
(there's gotta be a reason..) :confused:
*WHAT IS IT ABOUT C-HOGS THAT HTC HAD TO DECIDE PUT IN PERK POINTS?
(people whine about a lot of things.. HTC wouldn't have just given into whinings unless they found out something's reasonable about these whines) :confused:
...
for answers to these questions, tune in next week on ...
"UNSOLVED MYSTERIES" * dum - dum - di - da *
:rolleyes"
..
anyway, I like what happened after the perk. I see about as many C-Hogs as I see other planes now.. even the N1K population seems to have calmed down a bit...
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It's definitely the cannons. NO question. They're a great advantage in a HO or a snapshot, many times giving a quick kill so you don't have to tangle with the T&B airplanes.
I believe the airframe is basically the same as the 'D' model so there aren't any advantages there. It's got good diving, high speed handling and some zoom climb capabilities. It's not the fastest or best turning, it's just a good all-around middle of the pack kinda plane. Obviously if there was something more in the flight model, you'd see a higher kill ratio with 'D' model and the 6-.50 cals but you have to lay on the lead for that. I get many more assists with only 6-.50 cals (P-51 case in point) and it takes longer to kill someone putting me at risk of someone else getting on my tail.
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: SpitLead ]
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: SpitLead ]
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Last count back in March or April, Blitz had over 4000 perkies, wonder what hes got today? He never uses them...
Hmmmmm, then he got hispanos at hogd? What a cheater! :)
Fariz
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Hehe Fariz...Blitz is the pure type of "Lets have fun!" gamer there is...he rarely comes home alive when I see him, because his only goal is to have fun...he's spends every bullet on the target, he dives into odds that are 10 vs 1, he never runs, except to drag to a squaddie, after every bullet and bomb is gone, he enjoys field destructions so much that I wouldn't doubt that he does an auger into buildings just to see if they'll go down...he once stole 2 LARGE airfields under the nose of overwhelming odds, by himself...I envy the guy, because he doesn't fly to live, he flys to purely have fun! One of the best guys I've ever personally flown with in over 12 years of online sims, and, he sounds JUST LIKE ARNOLD on roger wilco, hehe!
<S>
Sorry, drifted from the thread again...shoot me!
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Cannon. The Chog hits like nothing in the game. It's brutal.
Course, you have to have some skill in BnZ for long streaks minus HO's of course, but man, it rocks.
EDIT- Geez, Droopy, I mean Rip just slobberd all over my reply gumming Blitz...sheesh.
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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..... i know you guys were talking about the chog and all but i was wondering if you think the same about the tempest. A lot of the time i kill a pilot that is known as "good" all he can do is give me toejam about the only reason i killed him because i was flying a tempest...so i just thought i would get some opions on it before i say anything to the people that squeak :)
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I flew a Temp WAAAAY back when I had at least 70 perk points. Way to long ago, I have probably 10 minutes in it total.
Forget what it does, but know this for sure.
I ran into a swarm of them in a snapshot/historical-something event, and they are just horrid fast,mean, and make a F4UC pale.
Really.
Anyways, the F4U-C guns hit harder than anything in the game, on a fast BnZ platform.
Perk it? Not sure.
Let the crying tards decide.
..oh wait.
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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Originally posted by Creamo:
Cannon. The Chog hits like nothing in the game. It's brutal.
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
Incorrect as usual my fine, soon-to-be-feathered- friend...hits like the Tiffy, the Tempest too. ;)
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You know, you'd think the whines would cease after the damned thing WAS perked... but no sir, Grunherz has to throw in his usual drivel topped with incoherant babble on the whole "Chog" issue because he was anally intruded by Ripsnort's 4 cannons one too many times.
Poor bastard, you really should seek some professional mental help Grun.
-SW
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I agree with air-guard.
HTC shouldn't have perked anything.
Sax
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<RAM crawls out of the shades for a second>
Seawulfe, I would like to see if you had the guts to say that kind of insulting BS face to face with the one you are insulting. I would like it because:
1-I'm sure you wont be "man" enough to say that kind of crap in front of the one you are insulting. In wich case you are an useless coward who only barks like you do because you are after a screen.
2-I'm sure that, if you were, sooner or later you would meet someone who would put a nice black eye in your face ;). In wich case you are a stupid antisocial guy who is idiot enough to get his face broken just for not knowing to respect others' opinion.
In short words: either you are a coward or an idiot...just tell it to the open so we (at least me) can definitely classify you as either of each on (well, there is always the chance that you are both, in that case I'm sorry bout you :))
<RAM crawls back to the shades again>
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Ah.. what CHog thread is complete without the appearance of those that demanded its perking then quit promptly after it was perked.
AKDejaVu
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S!
In my opinion accuracy in AH for ALL air to air weapons is way too high. In this Sim`s kind of enviroment, where guns are able to hit at extreme ranges, an aircraft equipped with 4 long range cannon is going to dominate. The C-Hog does better than the only other comparably equipped aircraft, the Typhoon and Tempest, for gunnery because the cannon pairs are set closer together on the wing of the C-Hog, therefore, if you get a hit, it`s a double gun hit, and the effect will be to immediatly collapse whatever structure is impacted.
Second point of course, is that in a monthly rolling plane set, you`d only get the C-Hog for maybe 1 day. ;)
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Ah.. what CHog thread is complete without the appearance of those that demanded its perking then quit promptly after it was perked.
AKDejaVu
you are a cruel cruel man...
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PERK COPENHAGEN!
With it's near unnatural population of beautiful women (It's definately the babe-o-rama of europe), kind people, low crime rate and exceedingly good beer IT SHOULD BE PERKED! :D
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Hmmm Copenhagen...
I'll be gone for bit, vacation...yea yea vacation :D
Nomde
63rd FS/56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://members.theglobe.com/Nomdegurre/files/pictures/signature.jpg)
"God loves the 56th"
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Yep, no more chogs riding the stall horn with the trigger pressed plinking kills outta the sky with 1 ping.
Keep it perked. If they cant fly the dhog and get kills in it, a nearly identical A/C, then the reason why they fly is obvious. Why do you think people fly the 205 much more than the 202?
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<word comes again from the dark shades>
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Ah.. what CHog thread is complete without the appearance of those that demanded its perking then quit promptly after it was perked.
AKDejaVu
ahh, dejavu, you are wrong...no Chog thread is --really-- complete without AKSeawulfe cussing, insulting and putting down anyone who says that the Chog has been bad (or unbalancing, or anything wich means less than "good") for Aces High until it has been perked.
In all and every Chog discussions there will always be 2 sides arguing with better or worse points, in a more or less heated way; but there only will be only one sorry prettythang cursing and repeatedly going personal with all those who dont agree with him...
well in fact ,he will go personal, curse and insult anyone who doesnt think like him in ANYTHING. Chog, cannons, MGs, gameplay, MA, HA, the color of the sky,WWIIOL, Il2, Warbirds, the real sense of life, the underwear of Jennifer lopez...whatever....
guess who am I talking about?, yeah, about smilie-man :)
Originally posted by Tac:
Why do you think people fly the 205 much more than the 202?
huhmmm.....400hp more, highest top speed, and better climbrate in a plane wich turns a tad worse...
I will tell you tac, I would rather fly a MG armed C205 than a cannon armed C202 (mostly because the cannons are Mausers, and they feel like 7.92mm anyway <G,D,R> )
<Back to the shades>
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Bartender! Another Round fer all my mates!
Sing lads! SING!
"Perk 'em all!
Perk 'em all!
The large and the fast and the small.
Perk all the Nikkis and C-Hogs in blue,
Perk anything that can shoot back at you!
`cause they're asking to just perk 'em all
As back to their Gruppen they crawl,
There'll be constant crying
as long as they're dying,
So cheer up, my lads,
Perk 'em all!
Nobody knows if the FM's are true,
So cheer up, my lads,
Perk 'em all!"
Well Done Lads! Drink up!
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heh, the "cannon" armed 202 would easily thwack your 205 just because of the single ping ability. True, you may outperform it, but by simple stall-turn and spray it will keep its kill/loss ratio higher than your mg 205. HisZooka Cannons: No flying required. ;) :D :D :p
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The problem with the F4U-C wasn't really it's A2A capabilities.
The problem was its combined A2A and A2G capabilities. You'd have a bunch of chogs spawn from a cv, HO the enemy lose a few and then easily take down the field and all things moving on it with the cannons.
I've lost count of the times I've seen a tshjook swoop down, fire a .5 second burst and plop, there goes the tank/ostie/m16. And that was before the new armor modelling.
Or they come in with guns blazing taking down all hangars easily.
When the chog became an incredibly cheap perk, all of the sudden I started running into buffs again. I was quite amazed and pleasantly surprised.
Obviously, there are other great JABO planes in Ah, but none that are quite as good at doing both A2A and A2G, and none that can spawn from a CV. A 190A8 is an awesome Jabo, with a limited bomb load. Guns are lethal against planes and nowadays they can even with a long sustained burst kill ostwinds. But it doesn't have a) the huge loadout of the chog, b) a2a performance (not even close) and c) guns that easily can shred gv's to pieces. Its guns are great for hardened targets though.
P-47 - great groundpounder, but suffers from no 1 ping wing off guns and compared to the tshjook limited maneuverability, acceleration and climb rate.
Hope ya get my point :).
[ 06-23-2001: Message edited by: StSanta ]
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C and D hogs are the same plane but one has cannon. The D hog is seldom used and has a way less that 1/1 K/D ratio. LW guys feel that the only plane that should have 4 cannon is the 190. They feel the same about the nik
Most guys that complained about the Chog couldn't even get a 1/1 K/D in it themselves. Same goes for the nik
Most guys that complained were guys that flew fast B&Z planes and were pissed when a good solid snapshot ended their cowardly sortie. same for the nik
Chogs were used a great deal to carry ordinance, take off from carriers and were one of the few planes that was useful against the overmodeled GV's and ground targets.
The nik will be next and then the Spit.
I have never done anything but fly fighters and have never seen a reset but I have 1500 perk points for sale.
Of all the possible solutions for adding late war planes to the set the "perk" idea is the dumbest.
The C (or D) hog cannot hang on the prop and stalls as bad as any plane with no mysterious flight modling that I can see. same for the nik
I lose a lot of fights in the D that I woulda won in the C because the two or three snapshots I get into the enemey don't do dick in the D but woulda ended the fight before I was low and slow in the C.
lazs
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StSanta hit the nail on the head. Many including myself flew the chog because it was best multi-role plane in AH. Once you took off, one could do a lot of damage on the ground and in the air.
I do a lot of ground attack. I still fly it on occassion for a critical mission but now mostly fly the thyphoon in ground attack with 2k bombs.
I really like the 4 hispanos for deacking. I have flown the p47 several times but like the harder hitting 20mm guns better.
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i know i ain't gonna make a whole lot of friends saying this but you guys are whineing like little school girls. the whole time you sit here and squeak you could be spending playing and getting better so you don't get in the situations where the cannons do hit you. :(
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I've used the CHawg the past few tours when I've need the extra punch in very dense target rich enviorments..
It's ability to strip the enemy a/c of major components with just a few hits is awsome. When yha ain't got time to finesse a long .50 cal burst the thunderous snapshot of the Chawg does the trick..
I don't think I've landed many sorties in it tho... and none that reaped more points than it's cost.
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hmm i see nothing has changed in my absence......
still those who flew the F4uc claim it to be 'how it was' and will never admit to that feeling you got when flying it.It had the best gun combo in AH, is easy to kill with, tough as old boots and carried an enourmous ordinance load to boot.
WELL read up boys! It is INCORRECTLY MODELED!
600lb light? do you realise thats like 2 pilots in weight?? if it is 600 lbs lighter than it should be that explains a diddlying lot doesnt it!
what i find annoying? Laz,AKdeja, creamo etc were all on the 'LW are whiners' team and yet even now as Pyro tells them there is inconsistancies in the FM they still try to claim it was pilot skill that earned the kills.It was good piloting sure, but the plane was wrong! therefore every kill in one was FALSE. dont you see that?
if HTC put a sopwith camel in here and made it fly like a F4 falcon hell everyone would fly it.It(f4uc) was never the 'easy' ride we all made it out to be in anger, that i admit, but im sure EVERYONE was aware when flying it, that it was so awsome that it couldnt possibly have been completely modelled right.
hell if it was that good it would have earned a much more 'Legendary' status and would probably have replaced every aircraft type of the war!.Why bother with med bombers when the chog could do the work?
Quite simply, the chog was a great plane.
one of the last prop fighter planes, biggest ever prop blade i beleive.powerfull guns and according to AH ordinance loads to match the D model.(although i can find NO mention of hardpoints for bombs on F4Uc models)
People in AH overused an unfairly modeled aircraft because in AH it could do everything.
If you ask me its about time laz and others just shut up.I get sick of reading their posts myself as im sure the majority in here do too.
EVEN now they wont admit that the people who moaned about the chog were in any way right.As usual SW,Laz,Creamo are all the diddlyin' experts right? everyone else is a 'whiner'?
glad i left.
'LW guys feel that the only plane that should have 4 cannon is the 190.' LAZ
utter roadkill.
[ 06-24-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]
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"so you don't get in the situations where the cannons do hit you."
Lazs, the only way to achieve that is to not engage them in combat and stay faaar away from them. Its a fact that an F4UC can be wingless, tail-less and spinning & burning towards the ground with that trigger pressed the whole way down while 5 or 6 innocent other planes at d1.2 from them dogfight. if ONE of those sprayed shells hits any plane in any place, they are DEAD.
Now take Mr. Newbie or Mr. Vet flying that thing. The newbie can stall the chog and still have a damn good chance of hitting someone with that huge load of ammo he has..dont tell me you never had a chog turning with you, have it stall-spin with trigger pressed, the stall actually spun them giving them a snapshot at your 12 (when you were in their 6!), the vet can spray a bit if he wants, but he now has not only his skill to his advantage but also the singlepingkill ability. The kill ratio of that plane spoke for itself, and bear in mind that it was the most flown plane for 2 tours or so, but also that you could count with one hand the # of "vet" pilots that flew it regularly.That is why the F4UC should remain perked.
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Originally posted by hazed-:
600lb light? do you realise thats like 2 pilots in weight?? if it is 600 lbs lighter than it should be that explains a diddlying lot doesnt it!
Hmmm... let's see. The source I looked at (http://www.acepilots.com/planes/specs.html) says the F4U-1C weighed:
8,982 Empty
11093 Loaded
13999 Max Takeoff
Now other sources probably have slightly different numbers but these will serve the basic purpose.
So, mis-modeled by 600 pounds. Then if you fought one that was out of gas, bullets and after the pilot had bailed out ;)the weight was off by ~7%.
If you fought one after right after he took off with a "normal" loadout, whatever that is, then the weight was off by ~ 5.4%
If you fought one when he was at Max Takeoff Weight than the weight was off by ~ 4%.
So, maybe overall weight was usually off by about 5-6%?
This then is the reason that therefore every kill in one was FALSE. ?
I guess you would say then that every single thing in AH...or any OTHER WW2 MMP game...that isn't modeled 100% correctly results in exactly that same situation, false kills?
I doubt I'll be able to sleep tonight now. Gosh, knowing the F4U-1C's I fought had a 6% percent weight error has started me thinking.
What if panzers could go down hills at 100 mph? Would that make the kills they got at the bottom of the hill false?
What if say.. a Bf-109E could just pull a 90deg knife-edge bank turn indefinitely while fighting a Spit I that was doing the same thing...would that make all those kills false? ;)
Good luck finding perfection, chum.
But I am happy that you are now happy. :)
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guys... laz and lazs are two different people but..
I have never heard that the C hog was 600 lbs lighter than the D.. They both have exactly the same specs and fly exactly the same in AH so far as I can tell. The weights for the C and D hogs that I have are 703 lbs for the guns and ammo loads for both the 4 hispanos or the 6 fifties. The 1d was the biggest fattest pig of all the -1's also I can find no place where the -1 with cannon weighs more than a 1d. Why would it?
I hit kills? the cannon hogs kill very well but there is no "1 hit kill" ability. I used to fly it for a whole tour and have like 50 assists at the end of said tour. Now how in the hell do I get an assist if 1 hispano round de wings every plane in the game every time?
I repeat... the guys that complained the loadest about the Chog were the guys who knew the least about it and were the most unskilled in it. They were nothing but targets when they flew it but they hated it caus it could kill THEIR favorite plane. They couldn't shrug off a couple of seconds of hispanno fire like they do the fifties. Their lack of skill and the flaws of their chosen plane were both made obvious.
lazs
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yea... tac... don't try to tell me somthing about a plane till you can read!! ;)
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lol, u 2 crack me up. We got a case of minime's here ;)
"I hit kills? the cannon hogs kill very well but there is no "1 hit kill" ability..."
you mustve had a lag issue. a C-Hog will pop any fighter with one ping. From my experience, every time I hit any fighter with it its blown to pieces on the first hit sprite. If you think about it, 1 hit sprite is like... 4+ shells?, maybe more.
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what i find annoying? Laz,AKdeja, creamo etc were all on the 'LW are whiners' team and yet even now as Pyro tells them there is inconsistancies in the FM they still try to claim it was pilot skill that earned the kills
What I find annoying is that despite the fact that the plane has been perked and despite the fact that you have officially quit shortly after it being perked you still don't get that you were such a whiner in regards to this one plane that it is unbelievable.
I mean.. really.. was it necessary to insult anyone that flew it? No. But you did. Was it necessary to call anyone that even thought about defending pilots rights to fly whatever the want? No. But you did.
Now, you have the sliver of a "600 lbs too lite" for a plane that never handled that well anyways. Magically, you forget that your whole argument was basaed on "UBER LASER GUNS". Does 600 lbs too lite somehow make it more lethal in an HO situation? Nah... but you hold onto that number if you want.
The plane is out climbed by most in the arena. It is out turned by most in the arena. It is out accelerated by most in the arena. All it can really do is fire its 4 hispano cannons.
What really cracks me up is when someone like hazed comes in here and tries to pretend that its not purely 20 mm envy that motivates his discussion in this thread. That its not the fact that 4 hispanos pack a hell of a lot more punch than their LW counterparts. Hazed... you may notice they still haven't turned down the velocity on those hispano rounds ;) Oh yea... I forgot... you weren't really talking about that when you argued about the CHog.
AKDejaVu
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I want my 109G10 weight reduced 600lbs, im sure nono of you "insignificant 600lbs" crowd would object. :) IT'S A JOKE!!!!! PLEASE DONT BE OFFENDED
But honestly the thing that bothered me bout chog besides the guns was its increased ability in the vericay compared to the dhog, which seems to make sense as it was much too light and much lighter than dhog.
Ok ive tried to make this a resonable and measured post, I wonder how I will be attacked for it? :) :) (again a joke)
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Well, a couple of things I would like to mention. The F4U-1C is fun to fly, but there are quite a few things that I believe are incorrect about it in AH.
From AHT page 507, "The first production models, -1,-1A,and -1C had a much modified arrangement. Here the primary fuel tank was a protected installation in the fuselage just ahead of the cockpit with 237 gallons capacity. Addded to this were two unprotected internal wing tanks each of 62 gallons, making a total of 361 internal gallons. These models could also carry a centerline external tank of 175 gallon capacity. Another major fuel arrangement change was affected in the -1D Corsair variant where wing internal tanks were eliminated, making the total internal capicity just a 237 gallon fuselage tank. But more external drop tank fuel was added in the -1D. Two 150 gallon external tanks could be carried on wing inboard store stations."
If this source is correct, the fuel on our 1C is incorrect. Another table summarizes it with the 1c having maximum internal fuel of 361 gallons and maximum external of 175 gallons. A 1D had 237 gallons internal and maximum external of 300 gallons(2x150 gallon wing tanks).
As far as weight goes, it refers to an empty weight of the F4U-1 being 8982 lbs, and the 1D being 8971 lbs. I do not know if 4x20mm and ammo weigh more than 6x.50s and ammo, but the correct weight should be the 8982 lbs. with a correction for guns and ammo change. It goes on to state that weight with maximum internal fuel of a 1C is 12,835 lbs and the 1D is 11,962 lbs, BUT that is with the 1C carrying 361 gallons and the 1D carrying 237 gallons. The -1C weighed in at 12,039 with just the internal 237 gallons of fuel. Also, we need to account for gun/ammo weight differences, and I cannot seem to find where a 1A/1C could carry 2x1Ks.
AHT has alot of engine performance data as well. Summarizing their data, the 1C should not climb or go as fast as a 1D at all altitudes. The 1C has a less powerful engine. I can scan and post the charts for those that are interested.
Anyway, the 1C perk/no perk, dweeb/skill, blah blah blah seems to go on forever. The plane was unblancing the arena. It has more ammo for those 4x20mms than any other plane, and it seems the fuel, ordinance, weight, and power settings need to be revisted. AHT is only one source. I am not waving it like the bible or ten commandments. I just feel that some of these things need to be brought up.
<S>
trm
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I know this 'crusade' between pro-Luftwaffe and Anti-Luftwaffe has been going on more than I can imagine, and as a 3rd man, who (thankfully) lacks any kind of anger or frustration towards any of you people(the sort which might cloud any kind of judgement perhaps?), I think I can comment on this one pretty objectively..
I think every little part of what people have commented upon the C-Hog easily sums up and resonates into the conclusion that the C-Hog has turned into a VERY popular plane, and I don't think anyone can doubt that.
I must say this:
The F4U-1C has two kinds of strengths.. one is absolute and material strength which might be represented as figures and numbers, and the other is a immaterial, circumstantial, tactical strength, which cannot be presented in any kind of figures or charts.. but can be read and analyzed by looking at the current 'facts' and 'trends' of AH MA.
I think being out turned, out climbed, out accelerated by many planes in abolute figures doesn't have to necessarily mean that the F4U-1C is therefore, in aspect a 'non-whinable normal plane', sirs.
I think the C-Hog is a very circumstantial plane which despite its weak points, the overall circumstances of AH MA has molded up and multiplied its strong points.
It is out turned by many planes. But under the Carrier based Airfield raid conditions, do you really need to turn that much? Or require a good turning ability?
It is out climbed by many planes. But under same conditions the majority of battles in MA is performed, do you really need to climb that much? Up to say, 20k?
It is out accelerated by many planes. But as with the situations I have stated above, base raids are either "VULCH" or "RUN". You don't need to worry about accelration much when you have 7~8 more guys than defenders. You don't have to worry about just about anything when you are vulching.. If you are on the run, the Hog is a fast plane. Just dive a little and head straight back to CV and the odds are, base defense planes (majority being Spits) won't catch you.
The thing is, under MA circumstances, most of the times the C-Hog is NEVER in a condition where you might have to worry about its weak points. But on the other hand, it's speed, it's roll rate, it's sturdiness and ordanance load out, the fact that it's a carrier-based plane, the power of the guns, it's multi-role capability, plus maybe 600lbs less weight than usuall.. All it's strengths have summed up into just more than a normal 'total'.
It's weaknesses, I think, don't mean ANYTHING since we are not fighting in an environment it's weaknesses would present themselves naturally..
I mean if we are to meet a squad of C-Hogs fighting a squad of G-10s at 22K, the relative slow speed, bad rate of climb would kick into factor. If C-Hogs were to meet a band of Spitfires at co-alt the good turns, fast dive capabilities, good zooming, good climb of Spitfires might give the Hogs a hard time. If C-Hogs were to meet La-7s co alt at about 10K, faster speed and accelerations would drive C-hogs nuts..
But we don't have many of those situations.. and so, we don't get many chance to see the weaknesses of F4U-1C ever meaning anything. F4U-1C doesn't need to turn, doesn't need to climb, doesn't need to accelerate like other planes, at least not while MA is like this.
Some people ask for 'material facts' to a question which cannot be answered that way, and I don't think that is right.
Asking for material facts against the contempt spread over the LW population concerning the Hispano cannons would be appropriate. But denying the reality which cannot be translated into material facts is also wrong. After all, no one still has answered the question: "WHY IS THE F4U-1C IS SO MUCH POPULAR?"
It can not be answered with one word like "cannon", but neither can the question be pushed away and ignored with the same ol' same ol' "There's nothing wrong with it" or "WHINE AGAIN! YOU WHINERS".
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Sorry. long post, but need some summarizing.
I think the Anti-LW people are right in asking hard facts against the Hispano issue. I shake my head and can't quite understand how a single ping, no matter how powerful a cannon is, can rip out the entir rear hind, or blow out planes from d1.2. But, I have to admit numerous testimonies between pilots are contradictory, and there isn't much data to explain how the Hispano REALLY was, except charts and data tested from the official authorities. Hard evidence is hard to find.
But, I also think the Pro-LW guys have instinctively also noticed what many people like me have noticed, the "circumstantial", or "relative" strength given to the C model Corsair which is almost the greatest compared to other aircraft in this aspect(people who point out the A2A, A2G capabilities are essentially realizing what I realize(but phrase it differently), too).
Just like there is something special about Mart, there is something special about the C-Hog. It may not be the guns like LW guys insist, but there definately is something, contrary to what Anti-LW guys say.
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The weight difference is not 600lbs anyway.
A long time ago Pyro said that the AH chog weighed about 200lbs less than the dhog. Later F4UDOA dug up some nice navy documents which showed empty/loaded weights of the 1c and 1d being 9000/12470 and 9014/12175. There is still a mystery to the weight thing since the 1c seems to gain 320 lbs more than the 1d during loading which is odd because it doesn't carry more gas and it carries less weight in ammo (The 4 cannons in the 1c weigh more than the 6 MGs in the 1d but 924 rounds of 20mm weighs less than 2350 rounds of .50). So an empty 1C should weigh more than an empty 1D just because of the guns, but in fact it weighs less so there is something else going on. Likewise loading a 1C should add less weight since the only apparent loading difference is the ammunition but the navy documents show otherwise. Even if the 1C is 450 to 500 lbs too light (not 600), these same documents give the F4U C and D about 10% better climb (and thus acceleration and sustained turn) than they have in AH so if Pyro changes the FM based on this data, the 1C’s performance will IMPROVE.
Hooligan
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<S> Hooli,
The weight diff is not 600lbs, that is correct. But, the 1C is a 1A with cannon, whose engine produces less hp than the one in a 1D. The 1C we have does not seem to be modeled that way, it's performance should be slightly less if anything. Not to mention the fuel differences I posted earlier.
trm
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Trimmer, I do believe that the 1C we use was co-developed with the 1D and is not necessarily a 1A with cannons.
AKDejaVu
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lol.. whyd u call me a minni me tac?? :confused: :p :p :p . So now how about you guys stop crying and go play so i can shoot you down :), and i will do it with a chog :D
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Deja <S>,
With all due respect, I have seen sources that say otherwise, including America's Hundred Thousand and some others that may not be as reliable.
trm
[edit] Oh, I see, the one we use in AH you mean, not the 200 that were built.
[ 06-24-2001: Message edited by: TRiMmer ]
[ 06-24-2001: Message edited by: TRiMmer ]
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Trimmer:
There is conflicting data about the genesis of the 1C and what engine it mounted. F4UDOA found some Navy docs that claim it is a 1D equipped with cannons. "The F4U-1C is too heavy" argument is based on the 1D genesis, loaded weight of 12470 lbs, 237 gallons max internal fuel figures from these documents. If the 1C is indeed a 1A with cannons then it probably isn't too heavy, but it needs more fuel capacity.
F4UDOA's documents are posted on the web somewhere but I can't find the link. If you would like me to email you the information please let me know what your email address is.
Hooligan
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<S> All,
I give up, after reading more than I care to about the plane. It does seem to have differing specs, but I do believe the fuel is wrong on the one we have in AH. The fuel capacity should be as I posted earlier, exactly as a -1 -1A. The rest of it seems too unclear, and I retract any observations I made. See ya up! :)
trm
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"WHY IS THE F4U-1C IS SO MUCH POPULAR"
CANNONS ;) :D
You have listed all the truths as to why the plane, its flying characteristics is not "uber". its not. Its the guns. Those 22k 109's would find themselves in serious trouble at 22k with quick-rolling and amazing rudder capability hogs spewing 1 ping death. Get a 50 fuel hog vs a 100 fuel chog to make up for the weight difference, give equal pilots... chog has the best chance of winning.
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Oh, so it's not 600 lbs?
Then revise the theoretical error percents as follows:
Empty error ~ 5%
Loaded error ~ 3.6%
Oh, and those of you who are asserting the "one ping kill" capabilities of the -1C....
can the rest of us see the film?
What? Forgot to turn it on yet AGAIN? NONE of you has FILM? :D
[ 06-24-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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Originally posted by R4M:
<RAM crawls out of the shades for a second>
Seawulfe, I would like to see if you had the guts to say that kind of insulting BS face to face with the one you are insulting. I would like it because:
1-I'm sure you wont be "man" enough to say that kind of crap in front of the one you are insulting. In wich case you are an useless coward who only barks like you do because you are after a screen.
2-I'm sure that, if you were, sooner or later you would meet someone who would put a nice black eye in your face ;). In wich case you are a stupid antisocial guy who is idiot enough to get his face broken just for not knowing to respect others' opinion.
In short words: either you are a coward or an idiot...just tell it to the open so we (at least me) can definitely classify you as either of each on (well, there is always the chance that you are both, in that case I'm sorry bout you :))
<RAM crawls back to the shades again>
Oh no! It's the whiney BBS jockey here to tell me about how much of a p*ssy I am in real life! Hey jackhole, you are the one monitoring the BBS on the WEEKENDS!
If you think I'm either of the above, you are dead wrong.. but I've got nothing to prove you. Your so damn whiney I would of slapped your face off your head in real life.
Stop crying to me, you don't even play AH anymore... maybe you should move right on along, the only thing you ever contribute is a complaint or a whine.
You got little man syndrome?
-SW
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Toad, you must be related to Jerry Springer.. I know this is true..somehow..must be ;)
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Well, Tac... do I remind you of him because you been one of the panelists on his show and you got to know him? ;)
Post that "one ping" film, Tac. You must have 1000's of those by now. Love to see it. :D
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EVEN now they wont admit that the people who moaned about the chog were in any way right.As usual SW,Laz,Creamo are all the diddlyin' experts right? everyone else is a 'whiner'?
glad i left. - hazed
Me too.
:p
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Originally posted by hazed-:
EVEN now they wont admit that the people who moaned about the chog were in any way right.As usual SW,Laz,Creamo are all the diddlyin' experts right? everyone else is a 'whiner'?
Hmmmm yup, that sounds about right.
Whiner.
-SW
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are you guys calling me a whiner or lazs??? :confused: :eek:
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There is no such thing as a Dweeb plane.
However there is plenty of dweeb/whiner "pilots"(1).
Note (1) : I've never seen any 1944/45 LW pilot whine in a BBS about numbers over germany neither I've seen any RAF pilot whine about the 109E4 during BoB.
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1st i want to say, if a plane was so widely used, there must be a reason for it. And cause most online sim pilots take the easy- to-fly-easy-to-kill with planes, i think that the chog represented this plane in a bye a wide margin in AH.
Now about the underweight conditions.
Pyro stated in the "Flight Model Stuff" post that the Chog is underweighted. So no doubt in this fact. But he says not if it 200lbs,600lbs or something else. To clear this up it would be nice if pyro posts the Dhog/Chog weights of AH here.
Same is with the eng-performance, atm we dont know what is right, if Chog has -1A eng or 1D engine, till it is found out i can live with a -1d engine in the Chog as long as the underweight is corrected.
And last a side note to toad.
If a differnce of 3-5% means not much to u, here my guess: reduce the P51 topspeed by 3% which is around 12 mph, increase the weight of a Spit by 5% etc. i think u would wonder how AH balance would change. 3-5% are a huge difference in aircombat, they can easily decide about the outcome of a fight.
P.S.: I would like to see my D9 lightened by say 500lbs, would fly as if it had only 25% now, would really make a difference i guess. Or u want to tell me fuel load doesnt affect flight performance, fuel consumption is nothing more or less than a weight decrease, i cant believe u never noticed that a plane performs much better with 50% fuel rather than 100%
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Oh no! It's the whiney BBS jockey here to tell me about how much of a p*ssy I am in real life! Hey jackhole, you are the one monitoring the BBS on the WEEKENDS!
LOL! seawulfe, lets see, take a look into the DATES (you know what does that mean, right?)
see when did I post my message?. the 22nd. At more or less 9 pm my hour in spain. Just 10 minutes before taking dinner and going out for drinking dancing and having fun until 6 am :D
I wont say that it qualifies like "monitoring BBS" :D
If you think I'm either of the above, you are dead wrong.. but I've got nothing to prove you. Your so damn whiney I would of slapped your face off your head in real life.
What a sorry prettythang :D
Stop crying to me, you don't even play AH anymore... maybe you should move right on along, the only thing you ever contribute is a complaint or a whine.
So, it seems I really hit on spot, right? <GDR>
You got little man syndrome?
-SW
If you tell me whats that Ill answer you. It seems you are too familiar with complexes of inferiority
SW...how to say it...grow?...no because you'd grow in stupidity too. Mature?. No, because you'd be a sorry prettythang anyway.
ahh you are hoppeless :)
[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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LOL this ended up as a long discussion. :D
well ive wont fly the crap plane anymore from now on i will only fly the 202 :D
Anyway its intresting how the fu4c can get peoples attention there must be somthing special with that plane after all.
airguard
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Originally posted by R4M:
ahh you are hoppeless :)
When I can start to understand what you are posting, I'll start replying again... until then, stay in WW2Ol. Don't need you whining over here.
-SW
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Naudet,
Perhaps I didn't use a good correct example.
You go to school and take a test and you get a score of 95%. You go home and SOME members of your family berate and harass you for totally screwing up the test.
HTC models the F4U-1C and do a very good job except the weight may be off 5%. Howls of outrage and protest! Long threads on the BBS, accusations of bias, etc. etc.
Sorry, I laugh this stuff off.
Those of you who think this is such a CRITICAL, game-destroying error, please post the FM programming that you have done. Any WW2 plane you choose.
Then let the slavering horde critique you on how you did.
Short answer: This is a MINOR error if you are intelligent enough to look at the "big picture", the overall view of the game.
On top of that it is getting fixed.
Remind me again, I seem to have forgotten... which massively-multiplayer online recreation of WW2 air combat has better flight modeling than we enjoy via a free download that is upgraded every month or two?
I'll wait for your answer because I surely can't think of one.
;)
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But Toad!!! You forgot, if it shoots them down in a dogfight it must be perked!
-SW
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tac... you are of course, as usuall.... wrong... fly the Chog for 100 kills and I will guarntee that you will have assists. everyone I know that flys the Chog gets assists. you know nothing about chogs so probly shouldn't enter into the conversations about em.
laz... if you didn't want to be mistaken for me then you shouldn't have called yourself laz. Is it so hard to add the "er" to the end?
lazs
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
What I find annoying is that despite the fact that the plane has been perked and despite the fact that you have officially quit shortly after it being perked you still don't get that you were such a whiner in regards to this one plane that it is unbelievable.
I mean.. really.. was it necessary to insult anyone that flew it? No. But you did.
ok show me where i insulted anyone flying it? as far as i can remember the nearest got to insulting anyone who flew it was to claim its easy to kill in it and therefore the better pilots would be fairer on those less skilled if they chose a more challenging ride.The reasons i quit were for pricing and the lack of any new 'gameplay' features being added, and i clearly stated it was not fair of me to expect HTC to keep up with what i wanted to see added.I stated that it was burnout that caused this because of flying essentially the same game but with added planes to try.The last update with the d11,ki and Il2 was a dissapointment for me 'personally' because i had little interest in them.again i dont expect HTC to pander to my every whim, it just happened that the last update didnt thrill me enough to overlook the basic strategy/gameplay that id played for almost 2 years. Id essentially got tired of the game but not the planes or the dogfighting.I just cant dogfight forever deja because i prefer a greater element of strat ok?
Was it necessary to call anyone that even thought about defending pilots rights to fly whatever the want? No. But you did.
? i think i get the jist here.I NEVER asked for the plane to be removed.I thought in the interest of the game less of the f4cs around would be benefitial to all.seems HTC agreed when they perked it and i myself found the 2 months i flew after it was perked were full of a much more diverse target enviroment.This i personally thought helped stop the frustration of fighting f4ucs constantly.You claim i have something against those that flew it? i think you are wrong.I had a problem with seeing the damn thing everywhere and seeing as how it was deadly it rather spoiled the enjoyment of a good dogfight.best ive had was a 109g2 vs a spit5 i think with superfly.had we both been in f4ucs the fight would have been over after the first hit instead this fight switched advantage again and again with both of us being hit.Dont you agree this sort of fight is more fun?
Now, you have the sliver of a "600 lbs too lite" for a plane that never handled that well anyways. Magically, you forget that your whole argument was basaed on "UBER LASER GUNS". Does 600 lbs too lite somehow make it more lethal in an HO situation? Nah... but you hold onto that number if you want.
if it was 600lbs and you think this weight is to be disregarded why not let every other plane have a 600lb weight reduction? Id sure like to have the 190a8 with 600lb taken off it!(joke deja).I watched an interveiw of the best p47 pilot of the war and he stated he preferred the older p47 without the added weight of armour because it reduced its performance so much.I think he said'for every 100lbs of weight you add you need 400 horsepower to compensate it' (or something along those lines memory is shot :D), but obviously you know better right?a few hundred pounds less weight didnt give the f4uc ANY advantage???
'uber laser guns' was my arguement was it? I think i merely agreed with others and added that to my overall opinion that too many f4ucs was bad for the game.
What really cracks me up is when someone like hazed comes in here and tries to pretend that its not purely 20 mm envy that motivates his discussion in this thread.
again deja you employ your considerable talent at mind reading! of course THATS IT! Im just envious of the guns! why did i not realise this before? you are a moron deja.
That its not the fact that 4 hispanos pack a hell of a lot more punch than their LW counterparts.
i never said they didnt deja, but i did question whether the difference was as high as it appears in AH:
Mg151/20:
fire rate: about 750 rounds per minute.
muzzle-vel: about 800 m/s.
projectile weigh: average of 92 - 110 grams.
Gun Weigh: 41.5 kg
Hispano Mk-II:
fire rate: about 600 rounds per minute.
muzzle-vel: about 860 m/s.
projectile weigh: average of 130 grams.
Gun Weigh: 50 kg
Hispano Mk-V:
fire rate: about 750 rounds per minute.
muzzle-vel: about 840 m/s.
projectile weigh: average of 130 grams.
Gun Weigh: 42 kg
then there is this :originally vermillion post:
The MG151 has approximately 78% of the delivered energy (ie Lethality) of the Hispano MkII.
The Hispano MkV has about 96% of the lethality of the MkII.
and finally from the man himself:
'The 20mm mine shell didn't show up quite so well. A comparative test with
the Hispano concluded that there wouldn't be much difference. What the
Hispano lost in explosive effect (only half the HE), it gained in kinetic energy, and it stood a better chance of punching through aircraft structures to reach fuel tanks,
or to inflict structural damage. Once again, it was with wing hits that the
mine shell was most dangerous.
Cheers,
Tony Williams'
this is single shell vs shell but a hit is a hit and so similar effects for a single hit in AH should be seen right?
Hazed... you may notice they still haven't turned down the velocity on those hispano rounds ;) Oh yea... I forgot... you weren't really talking about that when you argued about the CHog.
AKDejaVu
exactly right deja I never did argue the velocity was wrong.Again i say it. My arguement was that something was wrong with the chog and too many in the arena was killing the game for me personaly.the guns also seemed incredibly easy to kill with and from what i read of every other post on the subject the mg151 was only marginally less effective(as in it should acheive similar results in a different way eg harder to hit with but not much less deadly, with mineshells etc)
is my arguement a whine? no . but you said it was didnt you?. :D
we can all twist what we say into personal attacks deja, but what i said on the chog was a complaint by a customer about an issue that was felt to be spoiling the game.The reason i said im sick of reading yours and others posts is that they always end up a slanging match with one side calling the other whiners.I have explained before how much i detest this crap but it is always brought up again and again when i question anything in the game,and usually by you or SW or Laz1.
[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]
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Originally posted by hazed-:
I have explained before how much i detest this crap but it is always brought up again and again when i question anything in the game,and usually by you or SW or Laz1.
Explained in a whine... you will get the same reaction from me.
Now if you were to exclude the "Why doesn't the Luftwaffe get same treatment" crap... then hell, maybe I would give 2 sh*ts about what you say.
But as usual, there's the ever-present "The LuftWaffe MUST have equal treatment!" no matter how asinine the problem is.
So, the F4U-1C was perked because of whining masses (you dolts do realize that pre-whining the F4U-1C was NEVER as popular, doncha?) and here we are a month and a half later with the same crap being brought up.
"Cannons" nope that didn't work...
"It's uber" hmmm didn't work
"It's fast and rolls real well" Nope didn't work
"It beats LuftWaffe planes easy" nope didn't work
"Sheer numbers".. well no toejam shirlock, maybe if you whined more about that f'in plane it would have seen usage up into 50% of the arena's players.
And we've been over the guns before, it's always the same thing. "My LuftWaffe guns aren't as good as..." well hell have you looked at the explosive power of MG151/20's shells modelled in AH vs the Hispano???
-SW
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Throw grenade
close door
gets most of the dweebs in AH in one fell swoop.
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http://hipe.uia.ac.be/~gustin/scratch/fgun/fgun-am.html (http://hipe.uia.ac.be/~gustin/scratch/fgun/fgun-am.html)
20 mm (MG-FF, MG 151/20)
2 Minengeschoß m. Zerl.
2 Brandsprenggranatpatronen L'spur m. Zerl
oder Brandgranatpatronen
1 Panzersprenggranatpatrone o. Zerl
oder Panzerbrandgranatpatrone (Phospor) o. Zerl.
Here the Minengeschoß appears for the first time. A version of the 20mm M-Geschoß with tracer did not exist, so tracer was used on HE/I (Brandsprenggranatpatrone) or pure incendiary (Brandgranatpatrone) rounds. The latter was apparently a new development in 1944, intended to replace the less effective HE/I. The fifth round was a semi-AP projectile, explosive or incendiary. Apparently the main reason this was used instead of a solid AP round was that a solid projectile would have been too heavy.
It was recommended that more AP or semi-AP ammunition would be loaded when the probable targets were well-armoured attack aircraft such as the Il-2. On the other hand, against the four-engined bombers of the RAF and USAAF the high explosive types were more effective."
Hazed, you continually compare Hispano belt loadings and MG151/20 beltings as if they were identical.
I think I recall that AH is mirroring this standard belting for the MG151/20. That is 2 out of 5 in a 5 round burst are Minengeschoß.
Now, what is the Hispano belting? What's the ratio of HE to AP to AP/I?
When you know that, you can make an informed comparison.
As far as we know AH models the average of the belting correct? NOT the individual shell by shell force.
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(me:laz)"so you don't get in the situations where the cannons do hit you."
(tac) "Laz, the only way to chieve that is to not engage them in combat and stay faaar away from them"
well tac maybe thats what you need to do so you stop crying over a little game.
:confused: :( :(
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
<snip>
So, the F4U-1C was perked because of whining masses (you dolts do realize that pre-whining the F4U-1C was NEVER as popular, doncha?) and here we are a month and a half later with the same crap being brought up.
<snip>
Ya know SeaWulfe....I brought this up once in the past and was berated for it by someone on this BBS. I never really liked the Chog myself. Thing turns like a pig for me....I am too much of a turner and burner type flyer to have the patience to boom and zoom. But after the whines began, I started to fly it more and more just to hear the whiners whine. I am sure I wasnt the only one. :)
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Toad here u get an answer.
Yes u r right its a minor fault, and also it is corrected which is fine and will should solve the CHOG uber plane discussions.
My point is simply that in WW2 sims such minor faults can have suprisingly impressive influences on the gameplay.
When it is solved there will be no problem any longer.
Btw i learned to like the DHOG much better in the A2G support role, it has more rockets and beside the VH ack the 0.5 cals rip ack to pieces in milliseconds.
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Toad:
Standard British loadout was half AP/I and half HE/I for the Hispano (according to the book Guns of the Royal Airforce).
Hooligan
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*ROFL* Last time I checked, the CHog was perked at 8 points. Stop whining about the damned thing! Stop whining about it being perked! Stop whining about the whiners!
Like I mentioned in another thread, it's all speculation as to why the CHog is perked until HTC comes out and says why THEY perked it (yes, HTC perked it, not the whiners!) If it was perked for usage #'s, then oh well, it got perked to balance out the usage. Deal with it. If it was perked because it was "uber," oh well, it was uber, deal with it (then HTC should perk other "uber" planes to be fair.)
I'm sure more than a few Spitfire/Hurricane pilots said "damned bloody 109's everywhere..." during the BoB. If Churchill coulda perked Hitler's Luftwaffe, don't you think he would have?? ;)
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Naudet,
I'll wager that there are other as yet unknown errors in other aircraft FM's. Given the scarcity of really good germane and unquestionably correct data there almost has to be.
So shall we all get upset over that to? Something is probably wrong... we just don't know what it is yet! Oh my!
I just Play The Game.
Because when Dale and Doug find an error that can be documented as incorrect they fix it.
Guess what? I don't think I've flown the F4U-1C in probably 6-7 tours, maybe more. During that time I'm near certain I killed more of them than they killed me when I was drilling around the skies of AH in "inferior" planes. I know I killed a bunch in the C-205. :)
Yet in all that time with F4U-1C uber turbolasers and an incredible 5% error in aircraft weight.....
I still had fun playing AH.
HOW CAN THAT BE?
The game just keeps getting better and the errors keep getting weeded out. Maybe that's how.
Or maybe it's because I don't lie awake at night worrying that the Gestunkena Ray Gun 32.5mm gun shoots 151' too far. Or that the Iron Eagle F91.5 climbs 47 FPM faster than the rate of climb I found for it in a dusty old comic book on WW2.
I just Play The Game; simply because it is STILL, by far, the BEST one available.
YMMV. ;)
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Hazed, let's take a look at this:
"The 20mm mine shell didn't show up quite so well. A comparative test with
the Hispano concluded that there wouldn't be much difference. What the
Hispano lost in explosive effect (only half the HE), it gained in kinetic energy, and it stood a better chance of punching through aircraft structures to reach fuel tanks,
or to inflict structural damage. Once again, it was with wing hits that the
mine shell was most dangerous.
Cheers,
Tony Williams"
Apparently Tony is talking about the Hispano HE/I shell in this comparison with the mine shell which "didn't show up quite so well".
So basically he's saying 1 mine shell is an unknown bit "inferior" to 1 Hisp HE/I.
OK. Now the beltings:
A 100 round belting of MG151/20 would have 40 mine shells. The rest would be 40 Brandsprenggranatpatronen (a HE/I type) and 20 Panzersprenggranatpatrone (a "semi-AP projectile").
I haven't seen a definitive rating on these HE/I or semi-AP but I assume from what's been posted here that both of these were inferior to the Hisp. HE/I and AP/I respectively. Otherwise, no need for the mine shell, right?
Now, the Hispano belt of 100 has 50 HE/I said to be slightly superior to the best of the MG 151/20 shells, the mine shell. It also has 50 AP/I shells that are clearly superior to the "semi AP".
Now, if, and this is a big IF, AH models the belting's OVERALL leathality and NOT "shell by shell" leathality, Hispano belts will be significantly more leathal than the MG151/20 belts.
As I say, this is the way I understand the current modeling. It models overall average leathality, not shell by shell.
It may not be that way at all.