Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: davidpt40 on June 25, 2019, 03:25:01 PM
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I found this on Reddit. I was amazed by how many Soviet POWs had died by early 1942
While Nazi Germany was well known for the Holocaust, Nazis killed Soviet POWs in massive numbers as well, typically through forced starvation by Himmler's policies, and at a much greater rate than the Holocaust ever achieved. The camp commanders on the ground did not always know this as well. Taken from Hitler's Empire: How the Nazis Ruled Europe by Mark Makowzer (also, sorry for all the Nazi Germany posts. Currently doing some deep dives on it, will start posting more varied content soon):
[By this point, rather than waiting for Berlin to organize long-range transportation, some commanders set up POW work units to search for provisions, enlisted the help of local villagers and reminded their own men of the need to treat the prisoners properly. But it was much too little, too late. The death toll rose inexorably. As early as July, there had been mass starvation among the prisoners in Minsk, site of the first major encirclement, and death rates rose sharply after outbreaks of dysentery and typhus. 54,000 had died in camps in the General Government alone by 20 October; another 45,690 died in the next ten days. Further east, by November, the mortality daily in the Brjansk-Vjasma pocket was between 0.6 and 2.2 per cent. In Bobruisk, starving prisoners attempted to break out at night and were shot; the following morning 1,700 – one in ten – lay dead. Long before the world discovered the grisly sight of the overcrowded SS camps in the Reich in 1945, the Wehrmacht’s own POW camps – unseen by any journalists – had contained horrors that were, if anything, greater still in their magnitude. By February 1942, only 1.1 million Soviet POWs remained alive (of the 3.9 million originally captured), and of these only 400,000 were able to work. The overall mortality rate for Soviet POWs in German hands during the Second World War was 57.5 per cent; as many British and American soldiers died in German captivity during the whole war as died in these camps in one day. It was hardly surprising that German generals themselves believed that ‘the Führer wishes for the decimation of the Slavic masses’.
By February 1942, though, the propaganda war was the last thing on POW camp commanders’ minds. Johannes Gutschmidt, for instance, was a sixty-five-year-old former officer in the Wilhelmine army and a confirmed royalist. Although he had fewer than 200 men under his command he found himself guarding as many as 30,000 POWs at a time. Doing his best to find food and medical supplies for his detainees, he worried about their lack of shelter from the rain as well as the camp’s vulnerability to partisans reportedly gathering in the woods near by. At the end of October, Gutschmidt recorded the first act of cannibalism in his camp; several prisoners had eaten part of a dead comrade. By mid-November, many of them were dying despite some food being available: they were worn out and suffering from the lack of proper accommodation. As the thermometer plummeted below freezing, the mortality rate approached 1 per cent daily. A typhus epidemic was raging across the camps of the area. Elsewhere, things were even worse: at another camp in Vjasma, there had been 4,000 deaths, and the commander had been threatened with investigation by his shocked superior. On 21 January 1942 Gutschmidt had two Russian soldiers who had been surprised eating corpses shot; the next day, he marked the anniversary of the Kaiser’s birthday. The final entry in his diary, in early March, is a gloomy one:
"8 March 1942 [Smolensk] Now all the POWs capable of work are to be sent to Germany to free up armaments workers there for the front. Of the millions of prisoners only a few thousands are capable of working. So unbelievably many have starved to death, many are ill with typhus and the rest are so weak and pitiful that they can’t work in this state. The German administration failed to provide them with enough provisions, and there’s likely to be a nasty bust-up when so few come to Germany to work."]
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That's why they call it a war of annihilation.
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The treatment of POWs by both the Germans and the Soviets was barbaric. Look how many German POWs made it home after the war, compared to the number captured and sent to the POW camps. Majority weren't released from Soviet camps until the 1950's.
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5000 i believe.
A lot considering what the German people did to the Russian people.
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That's why they call it a war of annihilation.
It is difficult to call it another way, because our total losses amounted to 26.6 million people (civilian and military). 12 millions of them are military losses(soldiers).
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The treatment of POWs by both the Germans and the Soviets was barbaric. Look how many German POWs made it home after the war, compared to the number captured and sent to the POW camps. Majority weren't released from Soviet camps until the 1950's.
I was coming to post much the same. Neither the Soviets or Germans had a great record when it came to POW treatment. IIRC Hartmann's book had some pretty vivid accounts of the treatment he endured before being released about a decade later, and I'm sure German POWs without his fame endured much worse.
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The fact that the Germans were savages contributed to the Russians behaviour.
The Japanese from a American and British perspective is also interesting.
The Japanese still to this day believe they were the victims.
The amount of money invested in these countries highlights the need to placate both these types of races.
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13,000 of the 45,000 American POW's held in Andersonville during the Civil War died.
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13,000 of the 45,000 American POW's held in Andersonville during the Civil War died.
The crap sort of happens when armies burn and pillage crop lands, food gets scarce. FYI confederate P.O.Ws had a higher mortality rate then Federal P.O.Ws.
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It is difficult to call it another way, because our total losses amounted to 26.6 million people (civilian and military). 12 millions of them are military losses(soldiers).
I would say it is impossible to call it any other way but I was not just saying it I was referencing the term of art: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_annihilation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_annihilation)
I don't find the treatment of POW's by the Russians and Germans equivalent. Beyond the old "who invaded who" lies the impetus for the maltreatment. The Germans were genocidal the Russians were ruthlessly practical,"no man no problem". The Germans behaved as though the Soviets were non human while the Russians behaved as though being human was irrelevant when set against the needs of The State.
No matter how you slice it it is effing awful.
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The sources vary, but some say that 80% of Russian males born in 1923 did not survive WWII.
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The Germans were not exactly nice to USA and 'Brit' POWs late in the war. Long distance forced marches in winter.
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The devastation that Megalomaniacs have caused throughout history is both sad and frightening.
Good thing we keep those kind of people out of leadership positions now, huh. :rolleyes:
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Soviet P.O.W’s who were liberated after the war often found them selves sent straight to Gulag. Order 227, those who surrendered were considered traitors, and often family members were punished too.
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Soviet P.O.W’s who were liberated after the war often found them selves sent straight to Gulag. Order 227, those who surrendered were considered traitors, and often family members were punished too.
It's nonsense. If POWs did not cooperate with the enemy they were not imprisoned. Unfortunately, they did not receive a decent reward during the life of Stalin but after Stalin died they was rewarded. For example Mikhail Devyatayev( fighter pilot known for his escape from a Nazi concentration camp on the island of Usedom, in He-111) or Pyotr Gavrilov (major, Defense of Brest Fortress).
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5000 i believe.
A lot considering what the German people did to the Russian people.
Red Army had a record of atrocities well before having a german atrocities as an excuse.
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Between the years 1941-1942 alone, up to 200,000 Red Army soldiers were executed by the NKVD. However, since Order No. 227, the Battalions were increased in number and men within each increased also. Estimates on how many Red Army prisoner/soldiers, “Deserters” and “Panic-mongers” were executed throughout the war, are estimated between hundreds of thousands to a million… but one cannot truly know the true loss of life under these Orders.
Stalin had severe trust issues as many know, and peoples who were exposed to western culture who were not party elite were considered compromised. Even civilians whom were forcibly brought to Germany as slave labor were either sent to Gulag or forcibly resettled in the more desolate parts of the USSR.
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Red Army had a record of atrocities well before having a german atrocities as an excuse.
A certain forest in Poland comes to mind.
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Red Army had a record of atrocities well before having a german atrocities as an excuse.
Did Poland invade Germany in the 1920's under Pilsudski?
What was that about?
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Between the years 1941-1942 alone, up to 200,000 Red Army soldiers were executed by the NKVD. However, since Order No. 227, the Battalions were increased in number and men within each increased also. Estimates on how many Red Army prisoner/soldiers, “Deserters” and “Panic-mongers” were executed throughout the war, are estimated between hundreds of thousands to a million… but one cannot truly know the true loss of life under these Orders.
Stalin had severe trust issues as many know, and peoples who were exposed to western culture who were not party elite were considered compromised. Even civilians whom were forcibly brought to Germany as slave labor were either sent to Gulag or forcibly resettled in the more desolate parts of the USSR.
We can try to figure it out. I think you mix two events: verification POWs after the war and order No.227.
In your first post, you wrote about the verification POWs, but for some reason you mentioned order No.227. These are not related things.
Some number about verification and "Gulag" from Igor Pyhalov:
By March 1, 1946, 4,199,488 Soviet citizens were repatriated (2,660,013 civilians and 1,539,475 POWs).
civilians
2.146.126 - Sent to the place of residence
141.962 - Called to the army
263.647 - Entered the working battalions
46.740 - Transferred to the NKVD
61.538 - It was located at the collection points and was used in the work of the Soviet military units and facilities abroad
POWs
281.780 - Sent to the place of residence
659.190 - Called to the army
344.448 - Entered the working battalions
226.127 - Transferred to the NKVD
27.930 - It was located at the collection points and was used in the work of the Soviet military units and facilities abroad
"Transferred to the NKVD" means second step of verification. These were mainly ROA members and other collaborators.
Numbers from [V.N. Zemskov; 2016. — ISBN 978-5-8055-0299-7] about NKVD's verification
140 thousand - few years of work without moving(some restrictions, not prisoned),
10 thousand - spare divisions,
40 thousand - Entered the working battalions,
20 thousand - Sent to the place of residence,
8.728 - arrested,
30.477 - special camps(special settlements) .
Order No.227 is absolutly another story. It there is on the Internet, may be in English too but I'm not sure about quality translate.
Order 227 was an attempt to restore discipline in the army after retreat 41-42 years. If a person deserted, he could be punished before order no.227, the order explained to all the seriousness of the situation
There are many studies the Red Army's anti-retreat forces and Order No.227 in particular. For example Igor Pyhalov http://militera.lib.ru/research/pyhalov_i/13.html.
It does follow from the book’s chapter that mostly from escaped from a front line was returned to divisions , some was executed like deserters and alarmists.
There is numbers in the book. Chapter is too big for my English but I can translate some part with numbers if it will be interest.
Reality is some different from wikipedia.