Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Andy Bush on May 22, 2000, 02:46:00 PM
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Hi folks...
OK...I'm a newbie! Sometimes I ask dumb questions!
I ran across this quotation...
"Head-ons are for pilots that don't know what their next move should be"
I've also noticed a certain disdain for this type of attack in other posts. I don't understand why.
Has this got something to do with the way AH AI is programmed? Does this type of attack give a disproportionate advantage to the shooter for some reason?
Or is this just someone's opinion about how a gun attack should be flown...as in 'Real men don't fly head on attacks', or something like that?
I'm just kinda curious. In the real world, there are some excellent reasons for going beak to beak with the bandit, and it has nothing to do with self-image or ego.
Andy
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(Ripsnort pulls up a K-Mart, white, plastic lawn chair, and a case of good brew, wondering if this thread gets to 100...)
I use HO tactics when I have no other options available to me. (I.E. outnumbered, slow and low, gonna take as many of you with me as I can! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
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I use headon when I think it's going to make the other pilot angry. Otherwise I'll try to avoid it, it isn't worth dying for if it doesn't cause some frustration.
(that stoked it enough for you Rip?)
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Fatty
Fat Drunk Bastards (http://fdb.50megs.com)
"A country without beer has already lost the war. We must, gentlemen, take field 37 at all costs."
[This message has been edited by Fatty (edited 05-22-2000).]
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In the last few days of my MA experiences, I really lost it. I was HO'ing anything moving, shooting chutes, diving to blast already burning aircraft and killing defenseless sheep on landing and take-off, with complete disregard for my own personal safety. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
It was fortunate that "killshooter" was ON......... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
In pseudo HA mode and scenarios, I fly to maximize the effort and minimize the cost. I try to return alive and bring the equipment home. I'm not good enough to HO with impunity, so I avoid those unless given no option by my opponent.
Regards,
Badger
[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 05-22-2000).]
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Can you say "ohcrapitsacannonhawgHO'inme!"
Three times?... well don't bother. Before yah could finish the first one yer minus wings; tails, sayin prayers and lookin fer the canopy release. HO'in folks is dumb as hell; (particulary if the other guy has cannons) and if yah do; yer likely to get a dose of 'old facefull' yerself; followed up by crummy food and red cross packages fer the duration..
Can u say "DUCK!" ??
Do it and live. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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I avoid head ons more because of netlag than anything else
no matter how far out you kill the enemy Head on if his aim is ok you will die even if his shot comes a sec later.
that and I always find that most HO's end up w both planes damaged.
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I use HO when I'm in the uber-1c. Why not? If I'm in the 1c and not in a tank then I'm probably pissed and going after whomever pissed me off.
I use the HO when I know I'm going to die anyway and want to try and get the other guy too.
I use the HO because in the current F4u-1c the HO is it's greatest move.
I use the HO because..well...I want to. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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Andy, here's some more threads regarding HO's and their tactics, hope you got some time, some of these threads are loooooong!
HiTech said it best about HO's in his interview: Head-ons are a very real tactic but with like planes is not a good pilot's first choice because it is just eliminates ACM skill and is a test of gunnery skill. To eliminate it causes just as many problems because its elimination creates a perfect but non-real defense to e fighting tactics.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/003123.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/003123.html) http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002349.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002349.html) http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002462.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002462.html)
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-22-2000).]
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Yep, HO is the technique that is most dependent on net lag. I see you where you were a second ago, and you see me where I was a second ago. With 700 mph closure rate, this means things get really stupid.
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Yes Hangtime i CAN say DUCK ! i resent that comment (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
HO's are dangerous but valid tactic .. don't do them if you have another choice tho.. i mean if landing your kills mean anything for ya... all too often both contrahends are flaming wrecks after them ..
Anyhow .. i'll HO anybody when no other options given (i fly D-Hogs) e.g. low E low Alt..
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Thanks, guys...I see your points regarding on-line lag, and I understand the armament disparities in this sim...all good points.
But the best answer came from Vermillion where he differentiated between a planned, level HO and unplanned shots of opportunity. Very good, Verm...and exactly how it is done in real life.
I never deliberately went HO against anyone in the sense of how he described a level, nose to nose, planned attack. But I sure as heck took enough forward aspect shots when the ROE permitted. (In RL, most engagement ROE specify a max of 135 degrees crossing angle for typical close in shots. This is for safety's sake. If you think this is sporty in a WW2 sim, you ought to see it for real, in a jet, when you both are over the mach. Been there, done that, scared the toejam out of myself..more than once!)
'To HO or not to HO' is a complex subject, and not one that be explained away as poor BFM (and the term is BFM, not ACM! ACM is something entirely different.) The other posts raised valid concerns such as fuel state, numerical advantage/disadvantage, etc. Those are all good reasons to consider the HO.
But, given the fuel, time, turning room, and SA, I prefer to BFM the bandit's brains out before I kill him.
It just seems like the right thing to do!!
Andy
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Andy, my problem is with people who seem to be capable of nothing else BUT head ons. Look, a Spit 30k, 10k altitude on me, wonder what he'll do...A HO! How surprising!
Oh, a cannonhog d4.5. He reversing and going for the....HO! Oh, no prob I fake HO, roll sharply with a gentle pull he goes up, I make sure he is in front of my 3-6 line, although high. Guess he could just wait for the drop on my 6....no, he is HO'ing me. How unusual.
I've had LOTS of fights with Spits and other aircraft where they've started with an alt adv, lost it and the continously pointed their nose at me instead of doing some ACM to reverse the tables. It just gets annoying after a while.
And, as hrristos would say "some pilots need to learn to fear the 190 in a HO" - some people will HO anything! Granted, my 109G10 is not a great threat during HO's, unless I am wearing gondies, but a 190!
It's a valid approach during some circumstances but when used extensively or used as the primary tactic of getting a kill, I cannot help but to think "what a sheepshagger".
That's my personal opinion.
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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It never ceases to amaze me how every dweeb and his brother have no respect for 190 in a HO.
I could go on and on how I was low and slow on the deck in quad 20mm 190, and they all swooped down to HO me. Plane types ? Spits with 3k alt on me, 205s, Nikis and surprisingly, P 51s !!
Think smarter guys, with 3k alt you can catch 190 on the deck in just about any plane in AH.
Usually they blew their E and I got away.
At times I accepted a HO we both died. It all ends with last man standing approach, so we actually never bail too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Just yesterday there was Bikekill in his Spit, some 3k alt. I was fast and diving on him. He had 2 of his Spit buddies near and I had no intention to stay there long - 1 pass and bug out. He could easily evade 400 ias diving 190. But, guess what he did ! Yes, you are right. Good old HO, developing from 2000-3000 yards. He got luckier though, after collision I hit the ground first, but there wasn't much left of his dweebfire after 4 20mm hitting it.
Think better next time.
P.S.
I wrote "DO NOT HO !!!" on my gunsight. But do not trust me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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WTG Bike!
Standing orders for PAF are that dying is permitted as long as you take a Hun with you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-23-2000).]
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He got luckier though, after collision I hit the ground first
things going that way all the time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
btw. maybe it wasn't smart but i'm not used to run away...(ya know Polish blood) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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bikekil
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
(http://www.raf303.org/308/308banner.gif)
....come and get it
[This message has been edited by bike killa (edited 05-23-2000).]
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Andy,
HO's have their place. They are a valid tactic, it's just that the HO tends to put you in as much danger as the other guy, so most smart pilots will avoid them. The other problem with the HO is that if you try it at the merge, it forces you into a disadvantaged position if the other pilot is sharp. I'll merge below the other fellow's nose if I can, and in order to HO me he will have to dive at me on the merge. At this point I will evade and lead turn him in the verticle giving me both E and angle advantages at the merge.
The only thing that frustrates me is when a pilot uses the HO when he doesn't need to. I've been all alone before vs. superior planes that have 5k advantage yet all they do is HO, extend, repeat. Now I'm quite happy to dodge and eat up their advantage, but It's frustrating when they get a lucky shot from WAY out and put one in the canopy, especially when they hold all the cards and can engage me properly and win easily.
That said, much of the complaints I hear about HO's are not justified. If any pilot is getting killed repeatedly by HO tactics, then he is going for the HO himself. If both go for the HO, the best gunner wins, and even the winner tends to get blown to bits most times. If a fellow comes at you head on and you try to line up and shoot him, you don't move in his gunsight... a stationary target and an easy kill. However, if one learns to avoid the HO and most importantly RESISTS trying to shoot back, HO deaths are rare indeed. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been killed by HO attacks in the last 6 months or more. Even then, all but one or two of those were when I went for the HO myself... and died. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
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Hi Andy,
I was and still am one of the leading anti-HO whiners. It's not that I don't use the HO myself, but I only use it:
A) When attacking a buff
B) When I'm low & slow and it's my only chance to survive.
Now, the HO is not the same thing as a front quarter shot. It's only a HO in my book when two planes are at the same relative altitude, with little angle of deflection. I have no problem with people who shoot someone else in the front-quarter, when that other plane can't bring it's guns to bear.
What really burns my cookies is when two pilots meet in a co-alt HO situation, and instead of even trying some ACM first, they simply start blasting at each other.
My most enjoyable fights happen when I meet another pilot co-alt, and we both hold fire until after the merge. Then it's an ACM fight to the death.
I may be in the minority on this issue, but that's what I believe. I really enjoy using ACM and watching my foe do the same thing. It really makes a fight much more enjoyable, whether I win or lose.
For what it's worth,
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(http://www.raf303.org/308/308banner.gif)
"Turning Knight & Bishop sheep into lamb chops since 1999"
[This message has been edited by banana (edited 05-23-2000).]
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Lephturn and banana
Thanks guys...good points all, and I agree.
In response to my original question, most reasons given for not favoring the HO have a good and sound foundation. Technical issues aside, I appreciate everyone's desire to BFM the bandit. As a matter of 'fun', it can't be beat!
And when the HO is a matter of survival (for example, the low and slow bounce), it can provide a way to live and fight another day.
But, the mindless, pure pursuit HO technique does leave a lot to be desired...those that use it should get with one of the AH trainers and learn a different technique.
The HO reminds me of nitroglycerine pills...one every once in awhile might prevent a heart attack...but swallow a bunch and then jump up and down...well...you get the idea!!
Andy