Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: FESS67 on August 29, 2019, 05:27:24 AM
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Been thinking about this for a while and I am sure it has been brought up before.
Imagine this: New player logs in, learns a thing or 2 and starts to get a hit or 2 into the enemy plane. Either they die or another friendly gets the kill. Johnny try hard is left with nothing. Now consider how hard it is for them to get an actual kill. They could go for weeks (2 week trial) hitting but never killing and getting sweet FA reward.
If they drop a bomb on a hangar but do not destroy = zero. How about they hit the shore battery but do not kill = zero. They fight well against an enemy but a team mate gets the kill = zero.
Come on guys you have to reward effort as well as applauding the picktards
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Just make him number one while in his two weeks..... make all of them number one.
Heck just make everyone number one. That way we will not have to try to get better.
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Just make him number one while in his two weeks..... make all of them number one.
Heck just make everyone number one. That way we will not have to try to get better.
"Number One, I order you to go take a Number Two."
:old:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x18beia
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Just make him number one while in his two weeks..... make all of them number one.
Heck just make everyone number one. That way we will not have to try to get better.
Did you really read that into what I said?
Let me give you an example for clarity:
Target needs 5,000kg of bombs to destroy it. A squad arrives and they each have a 1,000kg bomb. Every member of the team scores a hit----- only the 5th member gets any reward because it is his bomb that actually destroys the target.
Now, is that a fair system?
You understand I am not advocating reward for nothing I am advocating reward for effort and skill in hitting the target even though your hit was not the fatal blow.
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So like a damage record pops up like in a bomber? When and if you land your fighter if you flew an attack sortie instead of a fighter sortie. +1
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Sounds similar to what is already implemented in War Thunder; If you at least score hits on something that does damage, you'll gain something out of it, be it research points and/or lions.
If you damage something, IE knock off an aileron, track/turret a tank, you should get something out of it, even if it's just .01 perk for it, especially if it allowed a teammate to come in and finish them off. Teamwork is a thing for some after all. :)
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Did you really read that into what I said?
Let me give you an example for clarity:
Target needs 5,000kg of bombs to destroy it. A squad arrives and they each have a 1,000kg bomb. Every member of the team scores a hit----- only the 5th member gets any reward because it is his bomb that actually destroys the target.
Now, is that a fair system?
You understand I am not advocating reward for nothing I am advocating reward for effort and skill in hitting the target even though your hit was not the fatal blow.
Come on.... you gotta laugh, that was funny. :D
I get your point. What if the new guy was the 5th guy and gets the kill just by shooting the hangar with guns. He feels like a hero. It all comes out in the wash.
If we have a listing of individuals pop up for damage along with all the kills in the game.... the buffer is going to get real erratic. Don't you think?
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"Number One, I order you to go take a Number Two."
:old:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x18beia
I saw this three times on the fourth occasion.
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If they drop a bomb on a hangar but do not destroy = zero. How about they hit the shore battery but do not kill = zero. They fight well against an enemy but a team mate gets the kill = zero
This is incorrect, they earn points in every scenario described in the above quote! How do you come by that it = zero?
Sounds similar to what is already implemented in War Thunder; If you at least score hits on something that does damage, you'll gain something out of it, be it research points and/or lions.
If you damage something, IE knock off an aileron, track/turret a tank, you should get something out of it, even if it's just .01 perk for it, especially if it allowed a teammate to come in and finish them off. Teamwork is a thing for some after all. :)
In Aces High, a player does get rewarded everytime they score just even 1 hit/ping on an opponent's ride (plane, GV, PT boat, any ship or CV) or any objects (hangars, fuel tanks, radar, field guns, etc...)
They just don't get their name in "Lights"
So exactly what do y'all think new players be rewarded with just because they didn't get rewarded with the kill or object destroyed message?
Am I missing something?
Just curious
TC
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In Aces High, a player does get rewarded everytime they score just even 1 hit/ping on an opponent's ride (plane, GV, PT boat, any ship or CV) or any objects (hangars, fuel tanks, radar, field guns, etc...)
They just don't get their name in "Lights"
So exactly what do y'all think new players be rewarded with just because they didn't get rewarded with the kill or object destroyed message?
Am I missing something?
Just curious
TC
In terms of perks, you gain something for only knocking off a aileron or rudder, even if someone else gets the kill? :headscratch: I don't recall ever seeing any perks earned from anything other than actually scoring a kill or blowing up a valid building. Score wise, I wouldn't know as I've never cared one bit about score, but perk wise, that is the issue I think is being discussed. :headscratch:
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US victories in WWII were fractioned in the most insane of ways due to gun camera film so there is precedent in regard to the OP’s wish.
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In terms of perks, you gain something for only knocking off a aileron or rudder, even if someone else gets the kill? :headscratch: I don't recall ever seeing any perks earned from anything other than actually scoring a kill or blowing up a valid building. Score wise, I wouldn't know as I've never cared one bit about score, but perk wise, that is the issue I think is being discussed. :headscratch:
To clarify:
You don't get perks for assists or for just damaging objects.
But you do get score rewards in form of damage or kill points (the kill points for score are essentially just damage points, the actual kill is worth only one 'kill' point.
For bomber mode, there is not even a "destroyed" category in the scores, it's all about damage applied to hostile structures. You can get way more score points for damaging an object than the next guy who just delivers the final blow. He get's the perks, though (But note it's a puny amount of perks if we are talking about a single object, no matter how big)
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In terms of perks, you gain something for only knocking off a aileron or rudder, even if someone else gets the kill? :headscratch: I don't recall ever seeing any perks earned from anything other than actually scoring a kill or blowing up a valid building. Score wise, I wouldn't know as I've never cared one bit about score, but perk wise, that is the issue I think is being discussed. :headscratch:
I think that's what he's getting at as well. I think for the most part perks are the only thing most people notice in terms of points, and they've been trained by most other games that doing anything gets you points. +1.
Wiley.
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To clarify:
You don't get perks for assists or for just damaging objects.
But you do get score rewards in form of damage or kill points (the kill points for score are essentially just damage points, the actual kill is worth only one 'kill' point.
For bomber mode, there is not even a "destroyed" category in the scores, it's all about damage applied to hostile structures. You can get way more score points for damaging an object than the next guy who just delivers the final blow. He get's the perks, though (But note it's a puny amount of perks if we are talking about a single object, no matter how big)
Thanks Snailman
............................. ......
As for altering the perk points reward system, that's like opening a quart size box of nightcrawlers....and I personally don't think it needs to be "tweaked" and don't see how it could be a huge benefit for new players if HTC was to adjust it
YMMV
TC
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The old kill message system should come back, in addition to the landing message. Attack damage should be shown when in attack too.
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It doesn't have to be a participation trophy even though in the past FESS's idea has been treated harsher, and accused of being participation trophy's for showing up. Personally I rarely look at how many perks I have and rarely fly perked rides unless it's something fun with my sqaud. Still, taking our generation of vets out of the picture for a moment. Can the reward system in the MA be leveraged to help a younger demographic feel like they are accomplishing something in our simple but brutal environment commiserate to their gaming experiences?
Most of us will ignore simplistic rewards other than landing more than 3 kills and the bovine smelly mud slinging that allows you on 200. For them, just about anything overt to validate functioning long enough to destroy something is gold. Unless they belong to a squad, all of their accomplishments are alone and no one knows how they helped their country. That aloneness and not even a good job you made a difference is a problem generationaly for the younger generations. Consider, we have all forgotten what its like to make it back and land with one kill and an assist that very first time years ago. For many of us that was the sum of our accomplishments for months or even years. Our generation said be a rugged individual and suck it up until you make it. Theirs as you can see from other games that hold their attention, give them more validation along the way than our game ever has since I've been here.
As for new players, do we really want them to crawl nude on their knees through salted glass shards while we kick them in the teeth and they get nothing for the abuse by us? Our past retorts about participation trophy's has been a resounding "yes". AH3 is not an easy game to play for up to a year on average where it comes to air to air kills or even surviving all of us vets looking for kills on jabo and GV's. I suspect FESS is looking at that and what motivates younger gamers from his broad participation in other combat titles populated with younger gamers.
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Well put Bustr.
This is not about everyone getting a gold star for just turning up. This is about the tangible recognition for a player that they did something.
TC, you may know that hidden deep in the bowels of AH there is a scoring system that knows the player did something. The problem is that in game the player landed 2 bombs on the VH because his team said they need it down and then he damaged 5 fighters or GVs as they fought to take the base. He did not destroy a building and he did not score a kill on a plane or tank.
He lands and the system tells him quite clearly that his last sortie was worth nothing. WTG kid, let's do all that again :banana:
I am not advocating name in lights or anything like that, in fact I would rather see that turned off. Just give the player some feedback on their efforts.
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Bustr's and Fess' reply #15 & #16, I liked and I am in agreement with the Topic Title of this thread!
"Reward effort, not just Success"
Besides using "perk points", does anyone have any ideas on how HTC might could think about implementing other than adding some new "New Player Starting Accomplishments", that would encourage & award new players in a way that would make them stay longer than 30 minutes (or the 2 week free trial)
One thing that I had always thought would be of help concerning the 2 week free trial was to keep the 2 week free trial, but switch it up a little bit, by making that 2 weeks a "Real Solid 2 Weeks" of logged in online 2 weeks (meaning giving the New Player 336 hours of online time... 14 days X 24 Hrs = 336 Hours (2 weeks)
Maybe have a timer that shows up in the clipboard or in the top right corner of the screen counting down from 336.00 Hours to 0.01 Minutes for the free trial....only using their 2 weeks of free trial, when they are logged into the game...not losing time because they are at school, work, etc.....
Just some of my thoughts on the matter
TC
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If the game doesn't suit somebody they aren't going to stay. If the game suits them they likely won't worry about partial victories any more then we did.
The reward system that was previously added is the achievements. Is there any indication that adding achievements increased retention?
I think the best way for newbies to get a kill is by fighting another newbie. Take two newbies, show them the basics, and let them kill each other, they'll probably have more fun doing that than following people around until they get killed in the MA.
They get rewarded both for effort, because they're learning, and success, because they're more evenly matched so they win a few.
Plus, the newbies can fly together as wingmen, which is another good way for newbies to enjoy the MA.
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If the game doesn't suit somebody they aren't going to stay. If the game suits them they likely won't worry about partial victories any more then we did.
The reward system that was previously added is the achievements. Is there any indication that adding achievements increased retention?
I think the best way for newbies to get a kill is by fighting another newbie. Take two newbies, show them the basics, and let them kill each other, they'll probably have more fun doing that than following people around until they get killed in the MA.
They get rewarded both for effort, because they're learning, and success, because they're more evenly matched so they win a few.
Plus, the newbies can fly together as wingmen, which is another good way for newbies to enjoy the MA.
Thank you for the correction regarding Achievements (not accomplishments)
Do you have a solution for newbies of finding each other, so they can fight each other and/or wing together?
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I recommend newbies be encouraged to request training whenever players encounter them. I always recommend to trainees that they find someone at their level to duel and wing with but first they have to learn what to practice and how ACM works.
Even a new player who's an ace in another sim can learn something about controller/view setup or game mechanics.
Of course any player can train a newbie if they have the time and inclination, it doesn't need to be a trainer.
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Thinking further on this, if the game is already recording the achievements then perhaps little has to change other than add an after action report.
There are many things that could easily be included in the report. Flight time, rounds fired, rounds hit, number of enemy hit, damage done etc etc. world of warships does this quite well.
It gives the player that sense of achievement even if no kills were made.
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I recommend newbies be encouraged to request training whenever players encounter them. I always recommend to trainees that they find someone at their level to duel and wing with but first they have to learn what to practice and how ACM works.
Even a new player who's an ace in another sim can learn something about controller/view setup or game mechanics.
Of course any player can train a newbie if they have the time and inclination, it doesn't need to be a trainer.
This is great in thought, but it rarely happens. If there was some kind of indication to a newbi he hit something/ damaged something I think it could add to the experience. Maybe make it a switched item so it can be turned off at a later date.
Anything that helps a newb feel like hes "getting some where" would be a plus.
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Thinking further on this, if the game is already recording the achievements then perhaps little has to change other than add an after action report.
There are many things that could easily be included in the report. Flight time, rounds fired, rounds hit, number of enemy hit, damage done etc etc. world of warships does this quite well.
It gives the player that sense of achievement even if no kills were made.
That is a very interesting Idea you have there, FESS!
maybe make it a pop-up, something like: "Do You Want to Review your AAR (After Action Report)? YES --- NO
and make it a Switched or Toggled item, that can be turned off, but is turned on by Default
TC
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Thinking further on this, if the game is already recording the achievements then perhaps little has to change other than add an after action report.
There are many things that could easily be included in the report. Flight time, rounds fired, rounds hit, number of enemy hit, damage done etc etc. world of warships does this quite well.
It gives the player that sense of achievement even if no kills were made.
I remember in Microprose’s Apache game you earned medals. You could look at these in your “shadow box” next to your rank insignia, etc. etc. it also popped up after missions. AH achievements are text based. Why not be able to earn a Bronze Star or DFC for a well-flown mission? Put it on your wall in the O’Club or something.
(https://d1k5w7mbrh6vq5.cloudfront.net/images/cache/e6/80/76/e68076e7e3d144c169172e66f4120c3c.jpg)
(https://www.myabandonware.com/media/screenshots/g/gunship-2000-adi/gunship-2000_10.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/USS_Missouri_%28BB-63%29_Awards_and_Ribbons.PNG)
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This is great in thought, but it rarely happens. ...
That's because saying "you'll enjoy the game more after a free training session" is so painful and difficult. :D
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That's because saying "you'll enjoy the game more after a free training session" is so painful and difficult. :D
you can say it all you want, most players want to just dive in and play. They dont even look at instructions/ directions sheets any more. It's not the lack of trainers or people willing to help, it the newbs themselves who dont want to take the time to learn/figure out/practice how the game works.
The old "you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink" deal.
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I think you missed my point. The newbie players that just dive in are not successful, this provides an opportunity to recommend training at a time when the player is more likely to be receptive to the idea. If a new player hears that from one person it may work. If they hear it from 20 people they are more likely to try it.
Learning the basics of turning, gunnery, and ACM in one lesson is not enough to be successful but it's a huge head start on required knowledge. We've all seen the "I want to learn by myself" type struggle for years with the basics.
Lead a thirsty horse to water and watch what happens.
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I'd agree showing "xxx landed by damage" might be cool to see.
"999000 landed 12 kills, 5 assists, and 0 damage in his b17 deathstar" :))
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Not so much as "name in lights", but rewarded for effort put forth. The "name in lights" thing should remain more or less as is.
One spends 20m getting somewhere, shoot up a few planes in the process, knocking off a rudder here, oil-ing an engine there, then got shot down. When nothing is gained at all, it can be a bit of a turn off, even if they knew they inflicted damage on a target that ultimately resulted in it having to turn back or is finished off by someone else's hand.
Example: I flank a Tiger 2 and track it with an M8, but get whacked by said Tiger 2. This will make it easier to take it out by someone else since it's now stationary, but a little dribble of perks for it would be nice even if that's all I managed to do that sortie.
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A more obvious progress toward next achievement would be nice. I have taken the effort to look at achievements maybe four times in a decade. It's just not that user friendly.
Air Medals are awarded for missions. You could list progress toward the next one for example.
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you can say it all you want, most players want to just dive in and play. They dont even look at instructions/ directions sheets any more. It's not the lack of trainers or people willing to help, it the newbs themselves who dont want to take the time to learn/figure out/practice how the game works.
The old "you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink" deal.
This
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Shuf,
Thats telling them to crawl over salted glass while you wash your hands of them. The point of FESS's discussion is to remove our kick-em off the cliff to swim or die crapping on these kinds of conversations. Some one like you always ended the previous years of attempts by crapping on the whole idea and they had to keep crawling on the glass. It does not matter if they play all games by hopping in and running into walls for their own stupidity. There are very few games as brutal as ours to that kind of play style. Even Chuck Norris when he was first learning Taekwondo while he was in the service stationed in Korea got his rear end kicked daily in the beginning. Him being a non Korean, they could have thrown him off tall enough cliffs during his first month and history today would be different. They didn't pull a Shuffler school of eat it and die kiddy on him.
Small regular encouragements for effort are now an embedded part of the structure of the games gamers are staying with and expect to receive. To old farts like us, the idea of getting a pat on the back every time we blow up a few buildings and get landed successfully, is grounds for telling Hitech and everyone on 200 a profanity laced screw you. Heck I turned off the achievement stars in favor of a better alphabetical roster sorting. Recently I was told I have 3 stars, OK, what does that even mean?? But, to younger gamers, it's an expected part of "encouragement for effort" that FESS is trying to talk about.
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Shuf,
Thats telling them to crawl over salted glass while you wash your hands of them. The point of FESS's discussion is to remove our kick-em off the cliff to swim or die crapping on these kinds of conversations. Some one like you always ended the previous years of attempts by crapping on the whole idea and they had to keep crawling on the glass. It does not matter if they play all games by hopping in and running into walls for their own stupidity. There are very few games as brutal as ours to that kind of play style. Even Chuck Norris when he was first learning Taekwondo while he was in the service stationed in Korea got his rear end kicked daily in the beginning. Him being a non Korean, they could have thrown him off tall enough cliffs during his first month and history today would be different. They didn't pull a Shuffler school of eat it and die kiddy on him.
Small regular encouragements for effort are now an embedded part of the structure of the games gamers are staying with and expect to receive. To old farts like us, the idea of getting a pat on the back every time we blow up a few buildings and get landed successfully, is grounds for telling Hitech and everyone on 200 a profanity laced screw you. Heck I turned off the achievement stars in favor of a better alphabetical roster sorting. Recently I was told I have 3 stars, OK, what does that even mean?? But, to younger gamers, it's an expected part of "encouragement for effort" that FESS is trying to talk about.
Your Chuck Norris analogy is perfect but you looked at it the wrong way. Chuck could have quit, but he didn't. He kept working to improve.
Everyone seems to think these folks are all quitters. I think they just do not want to invest the time to get better. Too many free games where you can BUY yourself better. They still think those games are free. They are conditioned that way.
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This thread has drifted away from my intent, I accept the blame for my imprecise language. I will create a new, more thought out post.
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Your Chuck Norris analogy is perfect but you looked at it the wrong way. Chuck could have quit, but he didn't. He kept working to improve.
Everyone seems to think these folks are all quitters. I think they just do not want to invest the time to get better. Too many free games where you can BUY yourself better. They still think those games are free. They are conditioned that way.
I studied a very brutal traditional Japanese martial art. If my sensei had not continually encouraged me at every step, I would have quit after my first cracked ribs let alone my bloody face and other bleeding body parts. I had no real reason to be there through the novice period getting torn apart by being a newbie to learn something with no real world practicality. The constant encouragement kept me going, after all, there are no jobs anymore for a Bushi. And what you see in the movies where the novice is thrown off the cliff to sink or swim, that's BS since every student is immensely valuable to the survival of the tradition. The game itself will winnow out the newbies, with encouragement, some number may not leave who we have been rejecting by our tradition of isolating newbies with the cliff and broken salted glass approach. What is the point of doing that to new customers who represent revenue for HTC? Or is Hitech letting the inmates run his asylum and revenue means nothing anymore?
FESS I understand what you are trying to communicate, in the end, Shuffler wants them to pay the same dues he did or leave.
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You are just saying they are not as good as we were. I think they are.
I am sure not against a method to help teach them. Heck I used to spend hours in the TA with individuals.