Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: saggs on January 21, 2020, 11:00:04 PM
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Didn't hear much about it with the 737 Max taking up all the aviation headlines. But the NTSB has released their interim report on the Atlas/Amazon 767 crash in Texas back in the spring.
Report: https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitlist.cfm?docketID=63168&CFID=3041421&CFTOKEN=9eb7f19d5413e33d-334C8CF1-0FB6-0B0B-EFEC7294646BA690
CVR transcript: https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/63000-63499/63168/631200.pdf
Short version: In an expedited descent to 3K, with speedbrake on and flaps 1 notch, somebody (likely F.O. who was flying at the time, and probably had a hand on the speedbrake/spoiler lever) inadvertently hit the TOGA switch (which is armed with 1 notch flaps). Airplane initiates go around power, with no visual reference in IMC the F.O. mistakes the sudden acceleration for a stall and pushes the nose down hard enough to split the yokes/elevators overpowering the autopilot. Plane comes out of the clouds at 3,500ft with the engines at go around power and the F.O. pushing the nose down. By the time the captain realizes what's going on it's to late to recover. When they impacted the ground the autopilot and autothrottles were still engaged, it seems that they never noticed the TOGA switch was engaged, and never hit the autopilot and autothrottle disconnects.
Crew background reports on the F.O. are scary, multiple failed check rides, bounced around from one carrier to another. The CVR transcript is also sketchy even before the accident sequence, lots of confusion and nervous chatter on routing and approach fixes and programing the FMS.
Anyway, figured some here might be interested.
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If the reports on the F/O are true he had no business in that cockpit. The guy was completely inept. Very unfortunate.
Add this to the list of things Embraer does better than Boeing. To split the controls in the EMB requires the crew to pull a lever in the cockpit. It can't be done inadvertently in a situation like this. I believe the Citation X is the same was as the EMB.
I have a lot of friends at Atlas and they love it. One guy I flew with likes it another I flew with hated it. The latter went back to flying the Lineage in the M.E. after being at Atlas long enough to decide it was not his cup of tea. That place does have some problems but hopefully they'll be able to sort it all out.
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Sad that company background checks didn’t reveal what the NTSB found about the FO.
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Sad that company background checks didn’t reveal what the NTSB found about the FO.
Previous employers can be subject to huge legal liability suits if they reveal competency issues. It might be time for the FAA to be the "clearing house" for all written training and check ride reports. No competent pilot is ever going to take issue with the fact that his ability to do a good job is public information.
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Another crash caused by Boeing designing aircraft requiring competent pilots.
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Previous employers can be subject to huge legal liability suits if they reveal competency issues. It might be time for the FAA to be the "clearing house" for all written training and check ride reports. No competent pilot is ever going to take issue with the fact that his ability to do a good job is public information.
That’s truly a sad star of affairs. Similar to the Buffalo accident.
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That’s truly a sad star of affairs. Similar to the Buffalo accident.
All the crazy stuff they passed after the Colgan crash was supposed to fix this. As predicted, it didn't.
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That’s truly a sad state of affairs. Similar to the Buffalo accident.
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My father was a commercial pilot in Maryland and he was required by the FAA to do regular check rides with an FAA officer to verify his ability to pilot the various aircraft he was cleared for. I did a ride along and watched him fail his yearly for a small infraction related to, everyone in the industry knew on that type what would happen next at a given point below a certain alt. The FAA officer didn't care he wanted all steps followed by the book.
So is this no longer the case for commercial pilots in the US? Granted what happened to my father was in the late 80's and it was only a King Air for a charter and cargo service out of BWI.
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All the crazy stuff they passed after the Colgan crash was supposed to fix this. As predicted, it didn't.
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My father was a commercial pilot in Maryland and he was required by the FAA to do regular check rides with an FAA officer to verify his ability to pilot the various aircraft he was cleared for. I did a ride along and watched him fail his yearly for a small infraction related to, everyone in the industry knew on that type what would happen next at a given point below a certain alt. The FAA officer didn't care he wanted all steps followed by the book.
So is this no longer the case for commercial pilots in the US? Granted what happened to my father was in the late 80's and it was only a King Air for a charter and cargo service out of BWI.
This is a deep-dive discussion. The short answer: It depends.
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This is a deep-dive discussion. The short answer: It depends.
depends if he crashed or not?
semp
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depends if he crashed or not?
semp
The way people leave after a poor showing in training. It depends. If you haven't busted a ride yet you can quit. Once you bust a ride that usually is reportable. But busting a ride isn't necessarily the end of the world. 99% of people bust at least once even if it's just a Private Pilot checkride. The problem arises when it becomes a pattern like this guy had.
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My father was a commercial pilot in Maryland and he was required by the FAA to do regular check rides with an FAA officer to verify his ability to pilot the various aircraft he was cleared for. I did a ride along and watched him fail his yearly for a small infraction related to, everyone in the industry knew on that type what would happen next at a given point below a certain alt. The FAA officer didn't care he wanted all steps followed by the book.
So is this no longer the case for commercial pilots in the US? Granted what happened to my father was in the late 80's and it was only a King Air for a charter and cargo service out of BWI.
I would add the fact that very few checkrides are done by the FAA. Most Airlines use DFTE's (Designated Flight Test Examiners) usually called Check Pilots. I was one.
In the 1980's 5000 hours flying time bought you nothing so failing a candidate put no pressure on the Operator - there were lots more applicants begging for a good flying job.
Now the pilot shortage has reared its very ugly head - the answer - keep training the candidate until he can (cough) pass. They need "meat in the seat".
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99% of people bust at least once even if it's just a Private Pilot checkride.
That seems excessive?. . . lol I know people older and more experienced as well as younger and less experienced than I, that have not (to date) failed a "Check ride". However, I also know people that have (without exaggeration) flunked every single check ride they have ever taken, one person in particular more than once for each rating, and is flying "professionally" today.
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That seems excessive?. . . lol I know people older and more experienced as well as younger and less experienced than I, that have not (to date) failed a "Check ride". However, I also know people that have (without exaggeration) flunked every single check ride they have ever taken, one person in particular more than once for each rating, and is flying "professionally" today.
That's poor business to allow someone to continue in a career field if they fail every evaluation... .
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That's poor business to allow someone to continue in a career field if they fail every evaluation... .
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Who's "business"? The airline's?
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Who's "business"? The airline's?
Any business. If you have any employee who fails every evaluation they need to find a new career. That is a safety liability for everyone involved. That makes me think that his "check ride" results were over looked simply to keep meat in the seat and nothing more.
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Any business. If you have any employee who fails every evaluation they need to find a new career. That is a safety liability for everyone involved. That makes me think that his "check ride" results were over looked simply to keep meat in the seat and nothing more.
Could be. As I understand it, there is a lot of pressure on the airlines now simply to get pilots to fly the planes. So the manufacturers dumb down the planes, knowing that they'll be operated by pilots who wouldn't have made the cut 20 years ago.
Or so I understand it.
- oldman
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Could be. As I understand it, there is a lot of pressure on the airlines now simply to get pilots to fly the planes. So the manufacturers dumb down the planes, knowing that they'll be operated by pilots who wouldn't have made the cut 20 years ago.
Or so I understand it.
- oldman
The requirements for training and experience to become an airline pilot are actually higher now than they were 20 years ago, at least in the US. This is one reason for the shortage in qualified pilots, although retirements and industry growth are also factors. The systems used have changed significantly (navigation systems especially), but the standards for getting a license as a professional pilot have not dropped (again, in the US). There are countries where training and licensing standards are low compared to the US, but I don't believe that those standards are lower than they used to be - it is more that 20 years ago those countries didn't have boast international airlines which would make the world news when they crashed into the side of a mountain. Accident rates are in fact much lower world wide than they were 20 years ago.
Mike
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I'm curious about the pay. When I was growing up in the 70's it seemed like airline pilots were making an extremely comfortable living without having to fly that much. (Mind you this is just the perception of a kid.) In inflation adjusted terms including benefits and retirement are pilots in general making as much as they used to? I ask because it seems like the answer would be no and it seems like that would tend to drive people out or make them less likely to commit to a career that seems increasingly button pushing. I read some stuff about head hunting pilots for Chinese airlines and doling out the big bucks but I have to assume that that is temporary and makes it hard to have a family life if you live in the states.
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Inwould be curious to know the statistics pertaining to pilot retirement from 2000 to 2010 vs pilot recruitment during the same time frame.
I wonder if job non availability pushed people to other careers because time spent learning didn't equal out to a positive paycheck or even job placement.
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That seems excessive?. . . lol I know people older and more experienced as well as younger and less experienced than I, that have not (to date) failed a "Check ride". However, I also know people that have (without exaggeration) flunked every single check ride they have ever taken, one person in particular more than once for each rating, and is flying "professionally" today.
Just about everyone busts something.
I busted my Multi-Commercial (I still argue that I did what I was trained to do, but he said that didn't matter...and thus I took it as a lesson learned that I've carried with me to this day, passed it along to others, so it was a good thing). My record is perfect otherwise.
A lone bust is not significant. It's a trend of failure that matters.
Anyone can bust a ride on any day. As an instructor you can bust anyone who walks into that bay. But that's really not the point. We're trying to teach, not fail.
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I'm curious about the pay. When I was growing up in the 70's it seemed like airline pilots were making an extremely comfortable living without having to fly that much. (Mind you this is just the perception of a kid.) In inflation adjusted terms including benefits and retirement are pilots in general making as much as they used to? I ask because it seems like the answer would be no and it seems like that would tend to drive people out or make them less likely to commit to a career that seems increasingly button pushing. I read some stuff about head hunting pilots for Chinese airlines and doling out the big bucks but I have to assume that that is temporary and makes it hard to have a family life if you live in the states.
We are reaping what was sown when I came through the Regionals. I made $17K to fly an ERJ. People saw that and said no way. Not worth it.
Then they upped the requirements which only exacerbated the problem.
Now they're paying sign on bonuses that exceeded what I made as a Captain on the Embraer 135/140/145.
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A lone bust is not significant. It's a trend of failure that matters.
As with all training that is the key, a pattern of fails means the individual is not learning the material, not taking it seriously and is just plain out not ready to perform their job.
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I'm curious about the pay. When I was growing up in the 70's it seemed like airline pilots were making an extremely comfortable living without having to fly that much. (Mind you this is just the perception of a kid.) In inflation adjusted terms including benefits and retirement are pilots in general making as much as they used to? I ask because it seems like the answer would be no and it seems like that would tend to drive people out or make them less likely to commit to a career that seems increasingly button pushing. I read some stuff about head hunting pilots for Chinese airlines and doling out the big bucks but I have to assume that that is temporary and makes it hard to have a family life if you live in the states.
In the 1960's and early 70's, airline pilots were well paid and the cost of getting the credentials necessary to be an airline pilot were very reasonable to even average income families.
In 1978, Carter deregulated the industry and the blood-letting began. Airlines failed, low cost carriers began and the downward pressure on pilot salaries was enormous. Many believe that certain product liability suits drove the cost of becoming a pilot to the same level as a medical degree. Many pilots left the industry and the supply of new entrants dried up. As Vraciu pointed out, who's going to invest $100K to earn $17K a year?
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The way people leave after a poor showing in training. It depends. If you haven't busted a ride yet you can quit. Once you bust a ride that usually is reportable. But busting a ride isn't necessarily the end of the world. 99% of people bust at least once even if it's just a Private Pilot checkride. The problem arises when it becomes a pattern like this guy had.
The old man didn't quit. He passed the next check a week later by the book and worked his way to his dream of getting a jet ticket. Sadly when he was 60 and took his first jet check ride to get his ticket, the FAA grounded him for his pacemaker. Still he had a good run, just before that he was flying for a service that did ambulance and emergency organ delivery. He kept earning tickets for commercial ratings and as a commercial instructor out of pocket and as part of his compensation from the companies he worked for. All he wanted to do was fly airplanes any way he could.
Guess it's the individual man in the end that determines these outcomes regardless of the tech to make up for lack of experience.
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I found this from Australia about Boeing starting a new aircraft type division that would produce a replacement for the MAX category. Other financial stories from as far back as 2015 were showing carriers were slowing down on their interest in the 737 as a viable platform into the future. South West revised it's orders down for the MAX before the crashes.
https://australianaviation.com.au/2017/11/boeing-names-senior-engineer-to-new-small-airplane-project-team-report/
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I found this from Australia about Boeing starting a new aircraft type division that would produce a replacement for the MAX category. Other financial stories from as far back as 2015 were showing carriers were slowing down on their interest in the 737 as a viable platform into the future. South West revised it's orders down for the MAX before the crashes.
https://australianaviation.com.au/2017/11/boeing-names-senior-engineer-to-new-small-airplane-project-team-report/
You have to love writers don't you... Title talks about a "new small" airplane that carries 225 to 270 people.
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The writers that know stuff cost too much. Maybe that's why performance standards aren't part of the inexpensive writer's world view.
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The old man didn't quit. He passed the next check a week later by the book and worked his way to his dream of getting a jet ticket. Sadly when he was 60 and took his first jet check ride to get his ticket, the FAA grounded him for his pacemaker. Still he had a good run, just before that he was flying for a service that did ambulance and emergency organ delivery. He kept earning tickets for commercial ratings and as a commercial instructor out of pocket and as part of his compensation from the companies he worked for. All he wanted to do was fly airplanes any way he could.
Guess it's the individual man in the end that determines these outcomes regardless of the tech to make up for lack of experience.
I'm talking about this Atlas FO and guys like him.