Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Oldman731 on April 15, 2020, 07:55:10 PM
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And it's well done. A shame.
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20171107X60614&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA
- oldman
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I had seen in the news he was full of drugs.
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I had seen in the news he was full of drugs.
Yes, and the FAA would not allow one to fly in that state. However, it is reasonable to believe that Halladay felt he was fine because these are everyday drugs for him (sleep aid, pain, muscle relaxer, antidepressant). I doubt the drugs had a significant impact on his abilities; if so, maybe only slightly. The final maneuver was poorly executed and expectedly ended in tragedy.
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Yes, and the FAA would not allow one to fly in that state. However, it is reasonable to believe that Halladay felt he was fine because these are everyday drugs for him (sleep aid, pain, muscle relaxer, antidepressant). I doubt the drugs had a significant impact on his abilities; if so, maybe only slightly. The final maneuver was poorly executed and expectedly ended in tragedy.
Looks like the report showed him whacked out of his head with all the drugs they found in him
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Lucky he didn't take anyone with him. In October GPS shows he flew under a bridge there.
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Looks like the report showed him whacked out of his head with all the drugs they found in him
Tolerance is not to be taken lightly here. With that being said, he was still under a considerable influence.
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This is what was in his blood:
- Zolpidem (0.088 µg/ml) - sleep aid, probably from the night before
- Amphetamine (2.2 µg/ml) (above .02 is considered abuse). he was stoned.
- Morphine (0.192 µg/ml) (to 0.100 µg/ml is considered therapeutic use) he was now doubally stoned.
- Fluoxetine (0.984 µg/ml) (antidepressant and it impairs judgement)
- Norfluoxetine (1.569 µg/ml) (medical derivative of Fluxetine, guess he needed more and also impairs judgement)
- Baclofen ((0.72 µg/ml) (strong muscle relaxant, impairs judgement)
- Hydromorphone (traces), similar to morphine.
Frugg. The guy was a flying Friday college chemistry frat party. One of these drugs could of resulted in pilot impairment and the resulting accident.
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This is what was in his blood:
- Zolpidem (0.088 µg/ml) - sleep aid, probably from the night before
- Amphetamine (2.2 µg/ml) (above .02 is considered abuse). he was stoned.
- Morphine (0.192 µg/ml) (to 0.100 µg/ml is considered therapeutic use) he was now doubally stoned.
- Fluoxetine (0.984 µg/ml) (antidepressant and it impairs judgement)
- Norfluoxetine (1.569 µg/ml) (medical derivative of Fluxetine, guess he needed more and also impairs judgement)
- Baclofen ((0.72 µg/ml) (strong muscle relaxant, impairs judgement)
- Hydromorphone (traces), similar to morphine.
Frugg. The guy was a flying Friday college chemistry frat party. One of these drugs could of resulted in pilot impairment and the resulting accident.
I agree. I am just adding that as an aging professional athlete, these drugs were very common for him. These were a daily prescription for likely many years. It seems like a lot to you and I, but to someone who had been taking these doses for years may not be quite as much. Was he impaired? Most likely, yes. Was he so impaired to where he could not operate an aircraft? No. Did the drugs have an impact on his judgement regarding the penultimate maneuver? Perhaps.
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I agree. I am just adding that as an aging professional athlete, these drugs were very common for him. These were a daily prescription for likely many years. It seems like a lot to you and I, but to someone who had been taking these doses for years may not be quite as much. Was he impaired? Most likely, yes. Was he so impaired to where he could not operate an aircraft? No. Did the drugs have an impact on his judgement regarding the penultimate maneuver? Perhaps.
Agreed. I'd like to hear what his doctors have to say before besmirching the man's legacy.
The levels of drugs found in his system are probably less than what my mother had in hers when she died, as she was prescribed everything on that list and then some. I know for a fact from her bloodwork results that the Baclofen and Morphine results are pretty typical of a 30 to 60mg twice per day script for long acting slow release Morphine, and for a typical Baclofen script. It also depends on the time before death these scripts/drugs were taken, and the results from lab tests can vary wildly with the same dose because of this.
The amphetamine result is the only one that gives me any pause, as they weren't very specific about the type of amphetamine that was detected. It's very, very possible he was on Adderall or Ritalin, and it's surprising how high the dose of some if not all of the drugs listed can get after long term use. My mother was 86 lbs when she died, and she was on 150 micrograms/hour of Fentanyl, just to give an example.
I agree with Perd regarding the level of impairment - we'll never know how much this contributed to his accident, but there are tons of people on long term prescription meds in North America, driving, and even flying, every day. Once the body develops a tolerance to many of these drugs, it's surprising how many will pass roadside impairment tests performed by law enforcement...
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I agree. I am just adding that as an aging professional athlete, these drugs were very common for him. These were a daily prescription for likely many years. It seems like a lot to you and I, but to someone who had been taking these doses for years may not be quite as much. Was he impaired? Most likely, yes. Was he so impaired to where he could not operate an aircraft? No. Did the drugs have an impact on his judgement regarding the penultimate maneuver? Perhaps.
Well he crashed.... so there is that.
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Agreed. I'd like to hear what his doctors have to say before besmirching the man's legacy.
The levels of drugs found in his system are probably less than what my mother had in hers when she died, as she was prescribed everything on that list and then some. I know for a fact from her bloodwork results that the Baclofen and Morphine results are pretty typical of a 30 to 60mg twice per day script for long acting slow release Morphine, and for a typical Baclofen script. It also depends on the time before death these scripts/drugs were taken, and the results from lab tests can vary wildly with the same dose because of this.
The amphetamine result is the only one that gives me any pause, as they weren't very specific about the type of amphetamine that was detected. It's very, very possible he was on Adderall or Ritalin, and it's surprising how high the dose of some if not all of the drugs listed can get after long term use. My mother was 86 lbs when she died, and she was on 150 micrograms/hour of Fentanyl, just to give an example.
I agree with Perd regarding the level of impairment - we'll never know how much this contributed to his accident, but there are tons of people on long term prescription meds in North America, driving, and even flying, every day. Once the body develops a tolerance to many of these drugs, it's surprising how many will pass roadside impairment tests performed by law enforcement...
Do you think you are going to pass your med for a flight license with that load?
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Most of those drugs would end an airline pilot's career if he were checked before commencing a work day.
I think the answer is simpler. A relatively inexperienced private pilot "horsing around" low level in an airplane that he had very little time in. It's a shame that the FAA did not pull his ticket for antics like this before it killed him.
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Shuffler, you are missing the point. He crashed due to a PiC error. Whether or not the drugs contributed to that error is a mystery. It is a lot of drugs, yes. But, for someone who has taken a steady dosage of them for 10 years, it may not be. Will the FAA allow you to fly a plane high on speed? No. My point is, the drugs may not have caused the impairment which led to his crash. We (and the NTSB) cannot completely attribute the drugs to the cause of crash.
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Most of those drugs would end an airline pilot's career if he were checked before commencing a work day.
I think the answer is simpler. A relatively inexperienced private pilot "horsing around" low level in an airplane that he had very little time in. It's a shame that the FAA did not pull his ticket for antics like this before it killed him.
Yes, Busher. This is my point. He was being an idiot, drugs or not. He had little time in the Icon and was flying like a teenager. This was reckless flying more so than drug related impairment.
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Yes, Busher. This is my point. He was being an idiot, drugs or not. He had little time in the Icon and was flying like a teenager. This was reckless flying more so than drug related impairment.
Reckless flying, certainly. But why? Seems to me like a "Hold my beer, doll, and watch this" episode. You can do that stone cold sober, but it's so much easier if you're trashed.
I feel bad for his family; his wife is class.
- oldman (And it's for sure that this town loved the guy.)
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Reckless flying, certainly. But why? Seems to me like a "Hold my beer, doll, and watch this" episode. You can do that stone cold sober, but it's so much easier if you're trashed.
I feel bad for his family; his wife is class.
- oldman (And it's for sure that this town loved the guy.)
Far too many deadly accidents happen with private pilots that have just enough flying time and new found confidence. His manoeuvers were more than irresponsible, they were illegal. If drugs can make a grown man behave like a stupid teenager, maybe he wasn't good for his family either.
Sorry to be cold but as a 35+ year professional pilot, I have no sympathy for stupidity or arrogance in an airplane. He could have killed innocent bystanders (boaters if you wish).
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Yes, Busher. This is my point. He was being an idiot, drugs or not. He had little time in the Icon and was flying like a teenager. This was reckless flying more so than drug related impairment.
One reason for these reports is not only to arrive at some sort of conclusion as to why the accident happened, but also to educate others so they can learn and perhaps avoid the same behaviors that contribute to these type of accidents.
To attribute the end result of the accident to inexperience and minimizes the impact of drug use/ abuse thwarts the whole idea of publishing the information.
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One reason for these reports is not only to arrive at some sort of conclusion as to why the accident happened, but also to educate others so they can learn and perhaps avoid the same behaviors that contribute to these type of accidents.
To attribute the end result of the accident to inexperience and minimizes the impact of drug use/ abuse thwarts the whole idea of publishing the information.
You have also missed my point. Drugs may have indeed played a part, but not more than his hot dog flying. Like Busher said, if drugs caused it, fine. But, I hesitate to make that claim because I imagine his tolerance for said drugs were quite high (refer to Tundra's post).
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I understand what you are saying, which is why I responded.
My point is that minimizing the drugs in his system, by saying - as an example "daily prescription” "Was he so impaired to where he could not operate an aircraft? No." "as an aging professional athlete, these drugs were very common for him" is rationalizing his behavior as if it was ok that he was on these medications/ dosages and actively flying, and played little to no role in this accident.
This guy not only had a history of abuse, but in the report there are a few points made about behavior that leads to suspicion of continued drug abuse.
I get that he was acting like a Cowboy and physically drove the plane into 4ft of water due to his lack of experience. However, it wouldn’t be prudent to ignore the issue of drugs found both in his blood and urine - two of which are disqualifiers for a Medical Certificate, and two that are not allowed to be used with 36-48hrs of flying - as contributing factors.
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I understand what you are saying, which is why I responded.
My point is that minimizing the drugs in his system, by saying - as an example "daily prescription” "Was he so impaired to where he could not operate an aircraft? No." "as an aging professional athlete, these drugs were very common for him" is rationalizing his behavior as if it was ok that he was on these medications/ dosages and actively flying, and played little to no role in this accident.
This guy not only had a history of abuse, but in the report there are a few points made about behavior that leads to suspicion of continued drug abuse.
I get that he was acting like a Cowboy and physically drove the plane into 4ft of water due to his lack of experience. However, it wouldn’t be prudent to ignore the issue of drugs found both in his blood and urine - two of which are disqualifiers for a Medical Certificate, and two that are not allowed to be used with 36-48hrs of flying - as contributing factors.
I never said no role, just not as much of a role as others in this thread have claimed. It is not dismissive, but his tolerance was higher than most people's which has to be taken into account. They are contributing factors, sure. But not the only reason that plane came down, nor was it the main reason.
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Yes, Busher. This is my point. He was being an idiot, drugs or not. He had little time in the Icon and was flying like a teenager. This was reckless flying more so than drug related impairment.
By standards set, this guy was drugged out. He crashed.... he killed himself.... glad he did not kill anyone else.
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So a alcoholic crashes his car, we say that it was just bad driving that caused the crash? Not the fact that he'd been a alcoholic for 20 years and blew 1.0 and that's not important because he's a 'functioning' alcoholic?
Sorry, impairment is impairment. Regardless if its opioids, drugs, or alcohol.If he had crashed his car, he would of been charged with driving under the influence of narcotics. There is no real 'functioning' for that kind of drug addiction. And he most certainly should not of been flying. I guess it really doesn't matter what he was doing, the guy was in no shape to drive or fly.
'Functioning' is the escape term to justify their addiction.
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So a alcoholic crashes his car, we say that it was just bad driving that caused the crash? Not the fact that he'd been a alcoholic for 20 years and blew 1.0 and that's not important because he's a 'functioning' alcoholic?
Sorry, impairment is impairment. Regardless if its opioids, drugs, or alcohol.If he had crashed his car, he would of been charged with driving under the influence of narcotics. There is no real 'functioning' for that kind of drug addiction. And he most certainly should not of been flying. I guess it really doesn't matter what he was doing, the guy was in no shape to drive or fly.
'Functioning' is the escape term to justify their addiction.
In addition, there is the age old impairment of, the EGO.
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In addition, there is the age old impairment of, the EGO.
Ah yes. Ego. How many pilots and innocents have been killed due to that?
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Drug induced ego, though. Right?
We are all correct here. Ego, poor choices, low time, too much confidence, recklessness, and drugs caused an accident.
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Drug induced ego, though. Right?
We are all correct here. Ego, poor choices, low time, too much confidence, recklessness, and drugs caused an accident.
I am left handed so I prefer the term correct. :D
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Do you think you are going to pass your med for a flight license with that load?
Well, obviously either Halliday did so, that or he did his medical before he was on all of those meds, or he just stopped taking them a while before doing his urinalysis for the medical/Cat4/Cat3/whatever category he got for his license. IF he got his license in Canada while with the Blue Jays, the Cat4/rec permit doesn't require a urinalysis, so there's that possibility too.
Of course not, but people are known to cheat such things - the majority if not ALL of those drugs after a week of being off them aren't detectable with a typical blood/urinalysis, unless a hair sample is taken and analyzed. I know my mother's urine screens she had to do, if she didn't take any morphine for 3 or 4 days, it wouldn't show up in the testing despite her taking it daily for months beforehand. Also, if Halliday got his license in Canada when he was up here, if he just did a rec permit then upgraded it, they don't even take a urine screen, it's just a "I declare" sort of BS thing IIRC. Or perhaps Doc got his license before he was prescribed all that crap.
Here in Canada the use of opioids by prescription is one of the highest in the world. RCMP stats say that up to 1 in 10 of every car you pass driving has someone operating it who is prescribed some sort of painkiller, along with probably lots of other meds. Most of these people don't crash their cars. I"m not saying there isn't impairment, of course there is, but after being on opioids/etc for long term, most people's systems build up a tolerance pretty quickly (this is one of the big problems with painkillers), and the amount of impairment drops significantly.
The RCMP/etc here in Canada have a new device they just started using since MJ was legalized here, the Drager Drug Test 5000 (sounds like a Robocop movie name). It can detect pretty much every opioid out there, along the the weed, just from oral swabs/tests at the roadside. I'll find the link I read on the data, but they were pretty stunned during trial runs with it, when they realized that 10% or more of the drivers they tested one day, were all testing positive for various prescription painkillers the device detects, and even more surprised that the vast, VAST majority of those with a positive result, were easily passing the typical roadside impairment tests they perform, such as the counting backwards/walking heel toe/etc. Again, I don't disagree that there is obviously going to be some sort of impairment, but for long term users like Halliday likely was, it's not like they are stumbling babbling drunks who are easy to spot.
Witnesses say he was jerking around when he crashed - crashing while doing stunts like he supposedly was could have happened to him with or without all those drugs in his system, ie just laying it off on the test results probably isn't the only, or even main reason he crashed. Again, IMO there would be some level of impairment due to all the different drugs he was on, but also IMO if any of us ran into him 20 minutes before his flight, I'd highly, highly doubt any of us would think he was whacked out on the junk.
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Double post/.
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Far too many deadly accidents happen with private pilots that have just enough flying time and new found confidence. His manoeuvers were more than irresponsible, they were illegal. If drugs can make a grown man behave like a stupid teenager, maybe he wasn't good for his family either.
Sorry to be cold but as a 35+ year professional pilot, I have no sympathy for stupidity or arrogance in an airplane. He could have killed innocent bystanders (boaters if you wish).
Agree with this - IMO too, ego/etc was what the drugs he was on likely had the biggest effect on, not his co-ordination or small and gross motor skills - again, after long term use most of the drugs he was on, the system builds up a tolerance pretty rapidly towards, and while I do believe that there would be some impairment of those motor skills/etc, it wouldn't be the sole reason, or even the largest reason he crashed. Halladay had flown many times previously and not crashed, and probably had similar amounts of drugs in his system all of those times as well...
I did forget about the amphetamine level when posting - it'd be interesting to see if that was a prescribed drug he just took extra bonus pills against the script and doctors instructions, or if it was street meth. Either way, that level absolutely could have had a larger effect regarding impairment, but again, that level could be one he took daily long term as well. Also, the USAF used to give those "go pills" to pilots flying at night, and they are pretty much the same thing as Adderall/Ritalin, tens of thousands of them have been taken by pilots, and most of them didn't crash due to those pills.
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Well, obviously either Halliday did so, that or he did his medical before he was on all of those meds, or he just stopped taking them a while before doing his urinalysis for the medical/Cat4/Cat3/whatever category he got for his license. IF he got his license in Canada while with the Blue Jays, the Cat4/rec permit doesn't require a urinalysis, so there's that possibility too.
A First Class Medical was issued 6 months prior to his accident. I can only speculate that perhaps his Insurance Company or Employer required it (not uncommon) as it is not required by the FAA. A Private Pilot only needs a Third Class Medical - and once issued he does not have to reapply for a Third Class Medical as Private Pilots can fly under Basic Med and the rules that govern.
The only urinalysis required for a First Class is for Glucosa screening (Diabetes/ Kidney disease) and not drugs. Drug Screen Urinalyses are usually performed by an employer/ potential employer.
However, he was required to answer, and declare, all hospitalizations, Drug use, Depression, Drug/ Alcohol abuse and 18 or 19 other questions. Any answer in the affirmative, requires further explanation in the next section of the application - and reviewed by the examining Doctor.
Two of the drugs are disqualifiers and two are required not to be taken within 36-48hrs of flying. He wasn't issued a Special Issuance Medical, which is issued after the examining Doctor decides Further evaluation is needed by the Doc's in Oklahoma. It isn't a stretch to reach the conclusion that either his current Medication list was either very recent (w/ in the last 6 months or he didn't declare.
Further more when you apply for an FAA medical certificate you sign away the right for medical privacy. Hence the FAA can request and get your medical records from Hospitals and Doctors at any time. Hence they mention his two rehab stints in 2013 and 2015. In the document they state they were unable to attain recent records from 2016 to present.
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A First Class Medical was issued 6 months prior to his accident. I can only speculate that perhaps his Insurance Company or Employer required it (not uncommon) as it is not required by the FAA. A Private Pilot only needs a Third Class Medical - and once issued he does not have to reapply for a Third Class Medical as Private Pilots can fly under Basic Med and the rules that govern.
The only urinalysis required for a First Class is for Glucosa screening (Diabetes/ Kidney disease) and not drugs. Drug Screen Urinalyses are usually performed by an employer/ potential employer.
However, he was required to answer, and declare, all hospitalizations, Drug use, Depression, Drug/ Alcohol abuse and 18 or 19 other questions. Any answer in the affirmative, requires further explanation in the next section of the application - and reviewed by the examining Doctor.
Two of the drugs are disqualifiers and two are required not to be taken within 36-48hrs of flying. He wasn't issued a Special Issuance Medical, which is issued after the examining Doctor decides Further evaluation is needed by the Doc's in Oklahoma. It isn't a stretch to reach the conclusion that either his current Medication list was either very recent (w/ in the last 6 months or he didn't declare.
Further more when you apply for an FAA medical certificate you sign away the right for medical privacy. Hence the FAA can request and get your medical records from Hospitals and Doctors at any time. Hence they mention his two rehab stints in 2013 and 2015. In the document they state they were unable to attain recent records from 2016 to present.
Good info, thanks. I figured it would be different in the USA/FAA than here in Canada/Transport Canada. I looked but couldn't find what type of license or medical he had. It does sound like what I posted though - like you said, very possible he either fibbed on the "I declare", or got his certificate done/issued when he wasn't prescribed some or all of that crap.
I did find some articles regarding the amphetamine results specifically - he had double the LD 50 amount of it in the samples they tested, which would have been a bit after the crash and time of death, so they results were probably lower than the time of the crash. HUGE amount of amphetamines in his system, enough to kill the average person who has no tolerance built up to that specific drug. Insane, which puts a bit of a different spin on it for me at least.