Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: davidpt40 on May 13, 2020, 05:15:35 PM
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https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/boeing-ceo-predicts-pandemic-could-put-major-airline-out-business
Boeing has a huge defense contract. They are fine. The company may have to restructure and lay off thousands of people. But then again, hundreds of leaked documents have said that the 737 Max was rushed through testing and that Boeing employees wouldn't allow their relatives to fly on the aircraft. Of course this was blamed on 'poor pilot training of the airlines'. When Boeing designs an aircraft the IMPROVES the survivability of the aircraft instead of having to have special training to fly it, they should be allowed to stay in business.
Some of the leaked information I have read has discussed the toxic nature of Boeing's engineering. Get the plane out the door. Fix the problems later. It's a business, not a safety corporation.
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Nothing like another war to revamp ones business's.
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That is just crap. If you were a huge steak holder in Boeing making the big decisions, why would you risk billions of dollars in lawsuits, production cost, deaths, ect, just to get a plane out of the door a few months earlier? It's not worth it, and these crashes prove it. Thousands of flights around the world by these planes recorded no problems. Think about that. Both crashes happened in a sketch country by sketch pilots. Boeing is being attacked here, but I can't put my finger on why exactly. Could be something deeper about the company or could be that competition doesn't want to compete anymore and has the media in their pocket to promote bad things about Boeing. Are they involved with space force stuff? Could be another reason its being attacked. Seems really odd to me.
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https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/boeing-ceo-predicts-pandemic-could-put-major-airline-out-business
Boeing has a huge defense contract. They are fine. The company may have to restructure and lay off thousands of people. But then again, hundreds of leaked documents have said that the 737 Max was rushed through testing and that Boeing employees wouldn't allow their relatives to fly on the aircraft. Of course this was blamed on 'poor pilot training of the airlines'. When Boeing designs an aircraft the IMPROVES the survivability of the aircraft instead of having to have special training to fly it, they should be allowed to stay in business.
Some of the leaked information I have read has discussed the toxic nature of Boeing's engineering. Get the plane out the door. Fix the problems later. It's a business, not a safety corporation.
I love this stuff. Maybe you could share with the group how much total flying time you have and of course, I am sure you will include the amount you accrued in Boeing built airplanes. :rolleyes:
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Nothing like another war to revamp ones business's.
Our "leaders" think war will fix all economic ills
And if we keep taking millions out of the worforce each week where else does anyone think we will end up?
Nothing like a good ole patriot war against the some boogie man they stir up and a nice fat draft to sweep all these idle bodies off the street and let them earn that gov money we grow on trees...
<S>
Eagler
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Nothing like a good ole patriot war against the some boogie man they stir up and a nice fat draft to sweep all these idle bodies off the street and let them earn that gov money we grow on trees...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket)
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If they get in real trouble, they could sell the 11 bil$ in stock buybacks they purchased in 2019 to manipulate their stock prices so the execs could get better bonuses.
Cry me a river.
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That goes for most major companies...but who would buy it?
How do you think they increased their value over the last dozen or so years?
Taking our tax dollars at almost zero interest and doing just that.
If that is reversed their perceived value would plumment
The virus did not cause any of this, it is just exposing for those to busy to have seen the truth before the fragility of our rig market/economy
Hold on to your hat as it is going to be a wild ride!
Eagler
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That goes for most major companies..
It certainly goes for a lot. In my opinion, stock buybacks are borderline unethical and probably should be illegal. It's obvious stock manipulation to maximize executive bonus. Perverse incentive.
You could thinly argue that stock buybacks are a form of retained earnings to store value for future unforseen eventualities. Not as liquid as cash though. I might be more sympathetic to that argument, but then it seems reasonable that you first burn through that stored value before accepting handouts from the public purse. If you want to store your emergency fund in the form of stock buybacks, then don't cry to me you stock value will fall if you liquidate that stock to access your emergency fund. Maybe that's why that wasn't a good place to store it?
I'm willing to help corporations weather this bizarre black-swan event. It's a once in a lifetime kind of thing. But any corp receiving public money should first be required to liquidate the last 5 years of stock buybacks to fund operations first. If they burn through that and still need help, I'd be willing, only if they sign an agreement to forgo further stock buybacks for 5 years after the last aid disbursement.
There'd be absolutely nothing unreasonable about that requirement IMHO. In fact, it seems like it would be common sense.
:salute
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If you want to store your emergency fund in the form of stock buybacks, then don't cry to me you stock value will fall if you liquidate that stock to access your emergency fund. Maybe that's why that wasn't a good place to store it?
Stock price would have increased during the buy back, and then if issued again price should drop.
With excess cash the corp has 4 choices.
1. Invest it to grow the corp. This is normally the most desired option but can not always be achieved.
2. Dividends, big tax hit for stock holders vs capital gains.
3. Stock buy back.
4. Hold cash in liquid assets and hence low return.
So I'm curious why you thing buy backs are a bad thing?
HiTech
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If you were a huge steak holder in Boeing
I'd ask for a decent BBQ for a start.
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Stock price would have increased during the buy back, and then if issued again price should drop.
After the executives have received their bonuses for the year. But don't worry, there will be time to have more buybacks before next bonus season. :cool:
I believe buybacks artificially inflate the price of stock and the effect is cumulative. When new shares are issued, their market price starts at the new inflated price they were manipulated to. So new shares are being bought for more than they should have.
Some companies have even been taking on new debt to use the borrowed money for buybacks during the deranged near zero interest rate insanity. New investors buying the inflated stock may have no inkling how much they are paying for hot air. All they know is the stock price has been going up so it looks like the company is growing and doing well. Current investors may not realize how much of the "real" value stock they bought previously is being diluted by sketchy debt.
Companies don't build real value by playing stock games. You build value by increasing production capacity, investing in long term R&D, hiring top level talent and upgrading the skill-sets of your current employees through more training. Developing new products. Heck, even using that money for acquisitions to vertically consolidate or expand to new markets or simply remove a potential competitor. It's insane to watch companies throw vast resources into buybacks while simultaneously slashing R&D. Temporary sugar high that gets a CEO a big bonus that employees and long term stock-holders will pay dearly for later.
Just like I don't think Nations "create wealth" by moving a decimal point around on an interest rate. Nations create wealth by developing new natural resources, improving technology to use resources more efficiently, growing production capacity, increasing population, improving citizen education levels to shift the value-added scale higher. etc.
Fiddling with zero interest rates, like stock buybacks don't create "real" wealth. They simply shift future wealth to the present. Soon or later someone has to pay that bill when the future wealth is found missing.
There might be some legitimate uses for stock buybacks. I'm skeptical. I certainly don't think they have been justifies at the levels we've over the last 10 years. To me it smells like simple blatant stock manipulation, which used to be illegal in the country. Buybacks used to be recognized as manipulation and used to be illegal. Then we got all financially fancy-pants.
This guy probably makes the point better than me. I would be willing to accept his compromise I guess.
I would probably also add a mandatory big double font size warning on the stock prospectus in red font "This company has engaged in stock buybacks in the last year and current market price for this stock may be distorted." like a cigarette package warning. ;)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/aalsin/2017/02/28/shareholders-should-be-required-to-vote-on-stock-buybacks/#4cbc88546b1e (https://www.forbes.com/sites/aalsin/2017/02/28/shareholders-should-be-required-to-vote-on-stock-buybacks/#4cbc88546b1e)
[Edit] In regards to the original point, I'm certainly not giving corp billions of dollar in tax money collected from regular working folk while that corp still has 10's of billions in bought back stock they could liquidate first to cover this emergency. When they've burned through their retained earnings and though their 5-year stock buyback cache, then I'm willing to help them if we still aren't through this.
:salute
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Buybacks are neither good nor bad -- it is a tool and can be good or bad depending on how it is used.
It shouldn't be illegal.
And -- just as importantly -- the government should not bail out companies.
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Good article on Boeing management for those who have time to read it.
https://newrepublic.com/article/154944/boeing-737-max-investigation-indonesia-lion-air-ethiopian-airlines-managerial-revolution
I'm with CptTrips on this. Management of big corps have long lost its way.
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Let's also remember that Boeing also failed their Starliner test flight in a grotesque way despite having more budget allowance than the competition, there is something wrong in this company nowadays.
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Buybacks are neither good nor bad -- it is a tool and can be good or bad depending on how it is used.
It shouldn't be illegal.
And -- just as importantly -- the government should not bail out companies.
Can't have it both ways and they do now
All about political contributions,power and greed
Welcome to America!
Eagler
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I actually think shorting is what should be illegal. Betting on companies to fail is not cool IMO. Power investors can cause a lot of havoc. <cough soros cough> .
I wonder what Nikki Haley found out about em.
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I actually think shorting is what should be illegal. Betting on companies to fail is not cool IMO. Power investors can cause a lot of havoc. <cough soros cough> .
I wonder what Nikki Haley found out about em.
If it were illegal they would only make money on the rise
This way they csn manipulate it and make $$$ on both the up and down swing
Eagler
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I actually think shorting is what should be illegal. Betting on companies to fail is not cool IMO. Power investors can cause a lot of havoc. <cough soros cough> .
I wonder what Nikki Haley found out about em.
Shorting can be good in some situations, such as when it is helping to keep valuations from getting insane and as a force in the opposite direction of fraudulent stock swindles.
No particular financial tool is good or bad on its own. It all depends on the situation.