Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Vraciu on June 08, 2020, 12:13:14 PM

Title: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Vraciu on June 08, 2020, 12:13:14 PM
This airplane is commonly depicted with full lower invasion stripes with single white stripes on each upper wing and horizontal stab surface.

I can't help but think maybe all it has is a black lower stripe while retaining fuselage depot stripes (black and white).

(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400313.0;attach=32496)

(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400313.0;attach=32500)

(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400313.0;attach=32502)

(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400313.0;attach=32503)
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Devil 505 on June 08, 2020, 12:32:49 PM
Looks like a lone black stripe to me.

Is the top of the wing in OD green?
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Vraciu on June 08, 2020, 12:39:35 PM
Looks like a lone black stripe to me.

Is the top of the wing in OD green?


Yes.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Fencer51 on June 08, 2020, 01:00:44 PM
http://www.crazyhorseap.be/Mustangs/Mustangs/G-MSTGJanie/G-MSTG.htm
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Vraciu on June 08, 2020, 01:06:52 PM
http://www.crazyhorseap.be/Mustangs/Mustangs/G-MSTGJanie/G-MSTG.htm

Thank you, sir.    :salute
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Vraciu on June 09, 2020, 10:27:28 AM
Lyric was kind enough to find this image for me.  It's un-cropped and much higher resolution than what I had.

What are the colors used for the nose art?   Sources indicate some combo of red and black.

(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400313.0;attach=32505)
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Arlo on June 09, 2020, 10:31:06 AM
(https://render.fineartamerica.com/previewhighresolutionimage.php?artworkid=9511586&widthmedium=780&heightmedium=533&x=200&y=200)
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Vraciu on June 09, 2020, 10:37:09 AM
(https://render.fineartamerica.com/previewhighresolutionimage.php?artworkid=9511586&widthmedium=780&heightmedium=533&x=200&y=200)

If you look at that graphic, Arlo, the shadowing is reversed and mirrored compared to the photo.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Arlo on June 09, 2020, 10:37:49 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/BTobsBu.png)
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Vraciu on June 09, 2020, 10:39:29 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/BTobsBu.png)

Closer.  But wrong script and the shadow is detached from the lettering.

 :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead

I really hate black and white photos sometimes.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Arlo on June 09, 2020, 10:39:46 AM
(http://www.crazyhorseap.be/Mustangs/Mustangs/G-MSTGJanie/G-MSTG%20Janie.jpg)
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Vraciu on June 09, 2020, 10:40:54 AM
(http://www.crazyhorseap.be/Mustangs/Mustangs/G-MSTGJanie/G-MSTG%20Janie.jpg)

Which begs the question, is the color in the WWII photo as light as the (now-mangled) restoration suggests?
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Arlo on June 09, 2020, 10:49:11 AM
Black and white interpretation is just that. Interpretation. As much as I would like to think that all modern restorations are perfect, they aren't. But the last two images I presented are probably as close as you're gonna find. Even an eye witness to the original nose art will be dealing with how they remember it. And if any of us run across a color photograph from the day, they were less than perfect.

Sometimes we can only get close and perfection is unattainable.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Vraciu on June 09, 2020, 10:51:44 AM
Black and white interpretation is just that. Interpretation. As much as I would like to think that all modern restorations are perfect, they aren't. But the last two images I presented are probably as close as you're gonna find. Even an eye witness to the original nose art will be dealing with how they remember it. And if any of us run across a color photograph from the day, they were less than perfect.

Sometimes we can only get close and perfection is unattainable.

So you vote red over white/tan?

What about black over yellow?
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Arlo on June 09, 2020, 11:04:08 AM
So you vote red over white/tan?

What about black over yellow?

Not a vote, just what I have found others to have interpreted it to be, in color.

My point is, you are indeed left with interpretation (either your own or that of others that portray it as best they can). You're desire to make the skin as authentic as possible is commendable. As you've admitted, however, sometimes all one may have to work with is a black and white photo ... and what others have interpreted it to portray.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Greebo on June 09, 2020, 11:08:18 AM
I'd say red is the most likely for the Janie text, it looks to have a similar tone to the red on the checkers. If it has a drop shadow it looks to be to the right and above or maybe its just a thin black outline all the way round the red text.

If I were trying to copy that text exactly I'd use the WW2 photo for a reference. After importing it into my file I'd trace over the panel lines around the nose art directly onto the photo in bright red. Then I would use a combination of vertical and horizontal perspective, skew and resizing tools to anti-distort the photo until the panel lines on the photo matched the panel lines on the skin. At that point the text on the photo should make for a reliable guide, certainly a lot better than trusting a secondary source like a profile or a warbird.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Vraciu on June 09, 2020, 11:11:43 AM
I'd say red is the most likely for the Janie text, it looks to have a similar tone to the red on the checkers. If it has a drop shadow it looks to be to the right and above or maybe its just a thin black outline all the way round the red text.

Well, the nose checkers are yellow and black.    Did I misunderstand something?

Quote
If I were trying to copy that text exactly I'd use the WW2 photo for a reference. After importing it into my file I'd trace over the panel lines around the nose art directly onto the photo in bright red. Then I would use a combination of vertical and horizontal perspective, skew and resizing tools to anti-distort the photo until the panel lines on the photo matched the panel lines on the skin. At that point the text on the photo should make for a reliable guide, certainly a lot better than trusting a secondary source like a profile or a warbird.


I've got it drawn based on the WWII photo.  I have red over black and black over red.   I can adjust the colors easily if needed but I just don't know what they are supposed to be.

I went back and forth between the two so this is the red over black version that is "parked" on the skin until I finalize what it is.


(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400313.0;attach=32507)


Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Arlo on June 09, 2020, 11:13:12 AM
I'd say red is the most likely for the Janie text, it looks to have a similar tone to the red on the checkers. If it has a drop shadow it looks to be to the right and above or maybe its just a thin black outline all the way round the red text.

If I were trying to copy that text exactly I'd use the WW2 photo for a reference. After importing it into my file I'd trace over the panel lines around the nose art directly onto the photo in bright red. Then I would use a combination of vertical and horizontal perspective, skew and resizing tools to anti-distort the photo until the panel lines on the photo matched the panel lines on the skin. At that point the text on the photo should make for a reliable guide, certainly a lot better than trusting a secondary source like a profile or a warbird.

While great advice on how to render the shape, it still leaves the question of what the actual colors were unanswered. Without an accurate color photo of the original plane in the day we're pretty much left with secondary sources and our own interpretation (are we not?).
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Devil 505 on June 09, 2020, 11:27:53 AM
To me, the script looks to be black over red.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Vraciu on June 09, 2020, 11:38:50 AM
To me, the script looks to be black over red.

That was my initial thought as well...
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Greebo on June 09, 2020, 11:45:59 AM
My bad, false assumption on my part regarding the red checkers, I'd still say your colours are correct. Not sure about the drop shadow being below the red though, the traces of a border line showing where the red has worn away appear to be above and to the right of the red. That might be a black drop shadow or part of a black outline that goes all the way round the red.

Yes Arlo it is rarely the case we get a colour photo or an eyewitness account for confirming these things so there's often some educated guesswork involved. I am always suspicious of secondary sources of info though. I have run across cases of aircraft that have been modelled, skinned, drawn, profiled or painted umpteen times over the years with a shared obvious mistake or that I know never even existed in real life. The first artist made a mistake or used a bit of imagination to make an interesting scheme and then all the rest just copied it without doing any research.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Vraciu on June 09, 2020, 12:59:35 PM
No problem, Greebo.

How about this version?  What do you think?

(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400313.0;attach=32509)
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Devil 505 on June 09, 2020, 01:19:13 PM
That looks good.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Vraciu on June 09, 2020, 01:40:43 PM
That looks good.

Thanks. I'll roll with it.   :salute
Title: Re: Photo Interpretatio Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: perdue3 on June 09, 2020, 02:59:56 PM
To my untrained eye, it looks like some of the squares are distorted and not square.
Title: Re: Photo Interpretation Help - P-51D "Janie" (Bill Price)
Post by: Vraciu on June 09, 2020, 05:12:13 PM
To my untrained eye, it looks like some of the squares are distorted and not square.

Correct. 

The shape of the nose on both the actual aircraft and the 3D model necessitates this.   There are four flat panels and one nose panel on the diffuse map that are bent together behind the spinner.    What you are seeing is the distortion this causes.   In order to make some checkers look square they're actually drawn as various trapezoids.

(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400313.0;attach=32515)

I haven't found a better way to do it and I've tried dozens.  From some angles distortion is unavoidable and the seams on the nose force one to work from the top down.   It's the nature of the beast.

As you rotate around the object you'll see the squares seem to shift as the viewer interprets the 2D shape.  This Mustang has more checkers and shows the effect even with smaller squares than JANIE has.

(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400219.0;attach=32456)


In effect it's the same problem cartographers have struggled with for centuries, just in reverse.