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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Frodo on July 15, 2020, 08:41:36 PM

Title: Starlink ISP
Post by: Frodo on July 15, 2020, 08:41:36 PM
www.starlink.com


This is Elon Musk's attempt to provide internet service via low orbit satellites.

Anyone else signed up to test it? I signed up and got a mail wanting my address.

Not guaranteed to get in but hopeful. Depends on your location for the first round I think.

Hopeful it will be as good as advertised.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: MORAY37 on July 16, 2020, 02:21:32 AM
Every astronomer or astrophotographer on the planet wants to choke the spit out of Elon Musk as it is.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Frodo on July 16, 2020, 08:23:51 AM


Last winter people out here were thinking they were seeing multiple drones over several weeks. Had law enforcement and government agencies fielding multiple calls for swarms of mysterious drones at night. It was Musk's multiple satellites in low orbit being tested.  :devil
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Spikes on July 16, 2020, 08:57:30 AM
Every astronomer or astrophotographer on the planet wants to choke the spit out of Elon Musk as it is.
Yeah, how dare someone try to make new technological advancements!
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: MORAY37 on July 16, 2020, 05:25:57 PM
Yeah, how dare someone try to make new technological advancements!

Not so much the issue of technology.  More so the sheer number of satellites in the constellation he needs to put up to give "everyone" internet.  Ground-based research will likely grind to a halt in many respects, simply too many reflective orbs drowning out light from the cosmos.  There's already a need to plan research around the volume of large hunks of metal in orbit now. Adding thousands more just for people to surf porn and share cat videos.....

I did read that there was a push to get them to cover each one in non-reflective paint. I don't know if they actually agreed to it or not. 
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: CptTrips on July 16, 2020, 05:40:17 PM
Not so much the issue of technology.  More so the sheer number of satellites in the constellation he needs to put up to give "everyone" internet.  Ground-based research will likely grind to a halt in many respects, simply too many reflective orbs drowning out light from the cosmos.  There's already a need to plan research around the volume of large hunks of metal in orbit now. Adding thousands more just for people to surf porn and share cat videos.....

I did read that there was a push to get them to cover each one in non-reflective paint. I don't know if they actually agreed to it or not.


https://www.engadget.com/spacex-launching-starlink-satellite-with-sun-visor-192438703.html (https://www.engadget.com/spacex-launching-starlink-satellite-with-sun-visor-192438703.html)
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Spikes on July 16, 2020, 08:41:03 PM
Not so much the issue of technology.  More so the sheer number of satellites in the constellation he needs to put up to give "everyone" internet.

God forbid "everyone" can have high speed internet.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: eddiek on July 16, 2020, 10:50:57 PM
I signed up to receive info, not for home use, but for use at work when I travel to some of the remote areas of ND, and even CO.
Waiting to see if it is mobile, as in, I can take it with me and set it up like the other satellite internet I had a couple years ago. 
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: MORAY37 on July 17, 2020, 12:13:13 AM
God forbid "everyone" can have high speed internet.

Not quite sure why you're grumping out..... maybe your blood sugar is low? Did I say something to offend you, personally? 

Pluses and minuses to everything.  If you view high speed internet AND living off in the wild as important, well, then this is up your alley. That seems pretty inconsistent, but you're entitled to your opinion.  I don't understand why you think others should be affected by your choices, though.  I know someone who has decades of research in deep sky astronomy, whose work will be severely affected.  But, I guess that doesn't matter. 
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Eagler on July 17, 2020, 05:51:55 AM
God forbid "everyone" can have high speed internet.

Exactly what I was thinking...

Must have everyone on the " info super highway"

Helps keep everyone " on the same page"

Rather have only stars in the night sky myself

Eagler
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Shuffler on July 17, 2020, 07:06:42 AM
Not "everyone" in the cities are connected.

Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: MORAY37 on July 17, 2020, 01:49:29 PM
Exactly what I was thinking...

Must have everyone on the " info super highway"

Helps keep everyone " on the same page"

Rather have only stars in the night sky myself

Eagler

I'd much rather only have the stars.  I find having to travel increasingly further just to get a clear sky as the years go on.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: CptTrips on July 17, 2020, 02:17:36 PM
I'd much rather only have the stars.  I find having to travel increasingly further just to get a clear sky as the years go on.

A couple of points. 

1.  There are million of Farmers and Ranchers and their families living in very rural parts of America that don't access to broadband internet.  Now days that's like living without indoor plumbing.  Yes you can do it, but it would be nice to provide the service to those that want it.

2. Broadband internet is about more than great porn.  Many rural families have home-schooled kids and broadband gives them access to so many more learning resources like tele-classes with large school classrooms allowing realtime interaction with remote instructors.  Also tele-medicine is becoming more and more accepted and allows specialists to consult with patients living in remote areas.  Broadband access opens up more employment opportunities for people living in rural areas for remote work and to not be left behind by the digital economy.

3.  There might come a day when physical mail in no longer delivered or greatly reduced.  Physical wired phone lines may eventually be abandoned.

4.  Satellites don't emit light.  They reflect it.  They are reflecting the light of the sun that is just over the horizon.  That means they only reflect that light for a little while after local sundown depending on the altitude.  Later in the evening you stop seeing satellites  because they are eventually in the Earths shadow.    The lower the satellite, the shorter the period that will be visible because of the angles.  The Starlink and going to be very, very low altitude.  Most serious observing isn't done until 4-6 hours after sunset to let the air temps and turbulence stabilize.  It is almost impossible that Starlink will have any material effect on serious observing.

5.  I am an amateur astronomer.  When you are observing though an instrument, you are observing a very tiny portion of the sky.  Remember that famous deep sky Hubble image of all those thousands of galaxies in the same view?  That was looking at a portion of sky that was about the size of the head of a pencil eraser held out at arms length.  The odds of something flying through that view at just a critical moment is actually fairly small.  You are just as likely to have an airplane fly though your view (and yes, that has happened to me about twice in my lifetime.)  But I'm not going to yell and scream and demand they cease all air travel at night.

6.  They are sensitive to the fear and are experimenting with glare shields. 

   
 

Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Frodo on July 17, 2020, 04:48:32 PM
I signed up to receive info, not for home use, but for use at work when I travel to some of the remote areas of ND, and even CO.
Waiting to see if it is mobile, as in, I can take it with me and set it up like the other satellite internet I had a couple years ago.

The receiver looks very small from what I have seen. Shouldn't be an issue unless they tie you to a physical address.  :cheers:


I live in rural Colorado and love the night sky it fantastic where I live. Hardly any light pollution here and I get spoiled. But like Trips said good internet is going to be even more of a necessity going forward. Also I have been ripped off by these internet companies for a long time. Mostly local owned DSL companies. If I have to pay, I want a good service. Most rural areas your are stuck with a handful of providers and lots of time just one. If Starlink works it looks much cheaper. For now anyway.  :devil
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: BiPoLaR on July 17, 2020, 06:13:59 PM
Not quite sure why you're grumping out..... maybe your blood sugar is low? Did I say something to offend you, personally? 

Pluses and minuses to everything.  If you view high speed internet AND living off in the wild as important, well, then this is up your alley. That seems pretty inconsistent, but you're entitled to your opinion.  I don't understand why you think others should be affected by your choices, though.  I know someone who has decades of research in deep sky astronomy, whose work will be severely affected.  But, I guess that doesn't matter.
Spikes is always grumpy and always has been. He'll be ok in a little bit. You cant help but love the little guy to pieces.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: guncrasher on July 17, 2020, 06:27:11 PM
lol, I live in the city about 15 million around us.  in my street have two choices dsl which is crappy or cable internet which is expensive.  my street is no joking the only street in the city that cannot get fiber optic for whatever reason.  1 block, one stupid block doesnt have fiber optic.  a third option would nice. if it becomes reality.


semp
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Vulcan on July 17, 2020, 06:40:20 PM
A couple of points. 

1.  There are million of Farmers and Ranchers and their families living in very rural parts of America that don't access to broadband internet.  Now days that's like living without indoor plumbing.  Yes you can do it, but it would be nice to provide the service to those that want it.

2. Broadband internet is about more than great porn.  Many rural families have home-schooled kids and broadband gives them access to so many more learning resources like tele-classes with large school classrooms allowing realtime interaction with remote instructors.  Also tele-medicine is becoming more and more accepted and allows specialists to consult with patients living in remote areas.  Broadband access opens up more employment opportunities for people living in rural areas for remote work and to not be left behind by the digital economy.

I have said it before, I think this tech is going to be a big let down.

You are not talking to geo-stationary satellites, you've got lots of small satellites whizzing around. So you will have to do handoffs, and at a high frequency. You going to have to figure out your downlink performance (what band and power is it going to be on).

And latency IS going to be an issue, despite what Musk is promising the physics just don't add up (for a start how are they going to have a solid terrestrial link if they're no longer geo-stationary).

Be prepared for tears when the hype-curtain is pulled back
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: CptTrips on July 17, 2020, 06:47:44 PM
I have said it before, I think this tech is going to be a big let down.

Could be.  It's not like Elon hasn't talked a bunch of baloney before.   :rofl

In the US, we should start to be able to get a reasonable picture of how well it will work by end of next year. 

We shall see, what we shall see.

Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Spikes on July 17, 2020, 06:48:46 PM
Not quite sure why you're grumping out..... maybe your blood sugar is low? Did I say something to offend you, personally? 

Pluses and minuses to everything.  If you view high speed internet AND living off in the wild as important, well, then this is up your alley. That seems pretty inconsistent, but you're entitled to your opinion.  I don't understand why you think others should be affected by your choices, though.  I know someone who has decades of research in deep sky astronomy, whose work will be severely affected.  But, I guess that doesn't matter. 

No. It baffles me that people could possibly get upset at the possibility of allowing everyone in the world high speed internet and even possibly be a reasonable competitor to price gouging cable companies. If you like the stars and dark skies so much perhaps you should not have moved to Boston.

Having lived with dial up and DSL, high speed cable is a godsend and we lived in a place where the cable company would not run cable 1/4 mile up the road to service about 4-5 willing to pay new customers.

The plus side to me is millions of people who otherwise could not get high speed internet due to their location, now can. Minus is your friend can't take pictures of the sky anymore.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: saggs on July 18, 2020, 12:45:54 AM
I'd be very interested in Starlink internet.  I signed up on the website a while ago but have not been contacted yet.

I live in a location where my only option is AT&T 4G for internet, I am rural enough that I cannot get cable or DSL here, and because of the hillside I live on, and the latitude I live at (66°N) radio and current satellites are not an option either.

The 4G works OK, but I pay $60+ a month and am limited to 50GB a month or I get hit with CRAZY high overage charges.(like I got hit with a surprise $240 bill one month)  Which stinks if I ever want to download a game or movies or anything.

If Starlink really can deliver reliable unlimited satellite internet to extreme latitudes for less then $100 a month I'm sold.


As a nature lover, I also appreciate the concerns about light pollution, but I hope it will not be as bad as some fear.  I mean there are already tens of thousands of satellites, and yes, I notice them fly over often, but I they don't ruin the stargazing experience for me.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Ramesis on July 18, 2020, 01:45:13 PM
Yeah, how dare someone try to make new technological advancements!
+1
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Ramesis on July 18, 2020, 01:51:04 PM
It has recently occurred to me that the more and faster net connections there are... the more
likely it is that our enemies can hack us...  :noid
 
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: MORAY37 on July 18, 2020, 11:11:17 PM


As a nature lover, I also appreciate the concerns about light pollution, but I hope it will not be as bad as some fear.  I mean there are already tens of thousands of satellites, and yes, I notice them fly over often, but I they don't ruin the stargazing experience for me.

As of today, there are 2,666 man-made satellites in earth orbit.  That includes the 422 Starlink already in orbit.  (There is a considerably higher number of "space junk" in deteriorating orbits)

Starlink has a planned orbital disposition of 12,000 satellites currently, with the company saying it may take 42,000 units in orbit to "give everybody" high speed internet.

This is a Starlink constellation of 19 units passing over a 3m telescope, that is conducting research.  Specifically, this scope is one of the more important ones that look for near-earth asteroids that we don't know about yet. The streaks  that move across the field of view are the Starlink units.

(https://i.imgur.com/FS4qByy.jpg)


Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Shuffler on July 19, 2020, 03:38:49 AM
That is eye opening.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Meatwad on July 19, 2020, 06:47:40 AM
I am seeing more of this on spaceweather.com. They said even the ones with the non-reflective coating still reflect just as bad. If they get their way and 12-42K of those are in orbit, ground based astronomy will no longer be effective. Wait until a small 100 meter asteroid hits the surface that went undetected due to the starlink interference. Then you will start getting the point across. And there have been plenty of those that went undetected until it was right on us
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Shuffler on July 19, 2020, 09:32:11 AM
Also more like one of those will be hit by one and more pieces coming down.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: saggs on July 19, 2020, 07:18:17 PM
As of today, there are 2,666 man-made satellites in earth orbit.  That includes the 422 Starlink already in orbit.  (There is a considerably higher number of "space junk" in deteriorating orbits)



Hmmm... I wonder what criteria or stats were used to come up with that 2,666 number, seems way off by any metric to me.

From ESA:

"The latest figures related to space debris, provided by ESA's Space Debris Office at ESOC, Darmstadt, Germany.
Information correct as of February 2020

Number of rocket launches since the start of the space age in 1957:
About 5560 (excluding failures)

Number of satellites these rocket launches have placed into Earth orbit:
About 9600

Number of these still in space:
About 5500

Number of these still functioning:
About 2300

Number of debris objects regularly tracked by Space Surveillance Networks and maintained in their catalogue:
About 22 300

Estimated number of break-ups, explosions, collisions, or anomalous events resulting in fragmentation:
More than 500

Total mass of all space objects in Earth orbit:
More than 8800 tonnes

Number of debris objects estimated by statistical models to be in orbit:
34 000 objects >10 cm
900 000 objects from greater than 1 cm to 10 cm"


https://www.esa.int/Safety_Security/Space_Debris/Space_debris_by_the_numbers

Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: MORAY37 on July 19, 2020, 07:37:34 PM
Hmmm... I wonder what criteria or stats were used to come up with that 2,666 number, seems way off by any metric to me.

From ESA:

"The latest figures related to space debris, provided by ESA's Space Debris Office at ESOC, Darmstadt, Germany.
Information correct as of February 2020

Number of rocket launches since the start of the space age in 1957:
About 5560 (excluding failures)

Number of satellites these rocket launches have placed into Earth orbit:
About 9600

Number of these still in space:
About 5500

Number of these still functioning:
About 2300

Number of debris objects regularly tracked by Space Surveillance Networks and maintained in their catalogue:
About 22 300

Estimated number of break-ups, explosions, collisions, or anomalous events resulting in fragmentation:
More than 500

Total mass of all space objects in Earth orbit:
More than 8800 tonnes

Number of debris objects estimated by statistical models to be in orbit:
34 000 objects >10 cm
900 000 objects from greater than 1 cm to 10 cm"


https://www.esa.int/Safety_Security/Space_Debris/Space_debris_by_the_numbers

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/satellite-database

Satellite quick facts

Includes launches through 3/31/2020

    Total number of operating satellites: 2,666
        United States: 1,327
        Russia: 169
        China: 363
        Other: 807
    LEO: 1,918
    MEO: 135
    Elliptical: 59
    GEO: 554
    Total number of US satellites: 1,327
        Civil: 30
        Commercial: 935
        Government: 170
        Military: 192
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Meatwad on July 19, 2020, 08:03:14 PM
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/satellite-database

Satellite quick facts

Includes launches through 3/31/2020

    Total number of operating satellites: 2,666
        United States: 1,327
        Russia: 169
        China: 363
        Other: 807
    LEO: 1,918
    MEO: 135
    Elliptical: 59
    GEO: 554
    Total number of US satellites: 1,327
        Civil: 30
        Commercial: 935
        Government: 170
        Military: 192

That does not include the number of decommissioned satellites, space junk, debris that is in space. Anything that can reflect a light will pollute an observation
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Vulcan on July 19, 2020, 10:14:40 PM
Starlink has a planned orbital disposition of 12,000 satellites currently, with the company saying it may take 42,000 units in orbit to "give everybody" high speed internet.

I wouldn't stress, I doubt Starlink is going to survive.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: LCADolby on July 20, 2020, 04:34:14 AM
On the one side, the world could use the internet in all it's extreme reaches, it would certainly have helped in tracking the ping location of a particular lost commercial aircraft.

On the other, there's already too much space junk we need bring back down to earth and recycle before it becomes too dangerous to launch manned craft out of earth for fear of collision.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Shuffler on July 20, 2020, 05:08:19 AM
It would have done nothing for that aircraft location. Those sats exist now. The plane only checks in at certain times.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: LCADolby on July 20, 2020, 06:15:23 AM
Imagine a laptop or phone being used by a passenger ~?
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Shuffler on July 20, 2020, 07:02:42 AM
Most don't allow that.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: LCADolby on July 20, 2020, 10:32:39 AM
Yes Shuffler, but some airlines offer Wi-Fi across their entire fleet while others only on certain types of planes and flights. Nowadays many planes come with internet access for a small fee.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Vulcan on July 20, 2020, 04:33:58 PM
Yes Shuffler, but some airlines offer Wi-Fi across their entire fleet while others only on certain types of planes and flights. Nowadays many planes come with internet access for a small fee.

Good luck getting a stable connection from a moving airliner having to hand off to low orbit satellites travelling at 7.6km/second.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: LCADolby on July 21, 2020, 03:26:02 AM
Nothing overlapping hand-offs can't fix.. Some of you guys really lack lateral thinking, and there are people a lot smarter than us working on the technology. :old:
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Shuffler on July 21, 2020, 07:23:15 AM
Nothing overlapping hand-offs can't fix.. Some of you guys really lack lateral thinking, and there are people a lot smarter than us working on the technology. :old:

Smart people make mistakes.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Vulcan on July 21, 2020, 05:31:59 PM
Nothing overlapping hand-offs can't fix.. Some of you guys really lack lateral thinking, and there are people a lot smarter than us working on the technology. :old:

I've seen coverage estimates of around 2-4 seconds. While it may still provide an internet service, it is unlikely to be suitable for gaming apps or even voice apps.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Eagler on July 23, 2020, 06:00:43 AM
It will work for facebook, email and posting here but I doubt it will be anything but more warping planes in ma

Eagler
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Mano on July 23, 2020, 01:00:12 PM
............and what if Starling actually works as promised?

If Starlink delivers, then the local isp's have some competition and will have to get off their duff's if they do not want to lose all of their rural customers and do some
serious upgrades. This could be a win win situation all the way around for the rural guys.  :salute

I bought a Tesla two years ago. I still have not had to do any maintenance, period. Meanwhile, my son had to change two catalytic converters on a 4 year old car,
he does an oil change every 6,000 miles, replaces the oil filter, air filter, transmission fluid and it goes on and on. Maintenance can get pretty expensive.

Meanwhile my Tesla performs as promised (zero to sixty in less than 3 seconds) and
it gets about 300 miles on a charge. When I charge it the fee is about 10 dollars if the battery is really low.

I hope Starlink works.

 :cool:
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Shuffler on July 23, 2020, 02:40:56 PM
............and what if Starling actually works as promised?

If Starlink delivers, then the local isp's have some competition and will have to get off their duff's if they do not want to lose all of their rural customers and do some
serious upgrades. This could be a win win situation all the way around for the rural guys.  :salute

I bought a Tesla two years ago. I still have not had to do any maintenance, period. Meanwhile, my son had to change two catalytic converters on a 4 year old car,
he does an oil change every 6,000 miles, replaces the oil filter, air filter, transmission fluid and it goes on and on. Maintenance can get pretty expensive.

Meanwhile my Tesla performs as promised (zero to sixty in less than 3 seconds) and
it gets about 300 miles on a charge. When I charge it the fee is about 10 dollars if the battery is really low.

I hope Starlink works.

 :cool:

If it is actually useful, the other net companies will pull out and then starlink can charge what they really need to cover their cost.
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Spikes on July 23, 2020, 02:42:21 PM
It will work for facebook, email and posting here but I doubt it will be anything but more warping planes in ma

Eagler
I guess joeblack uses starlink already then...
Title: Re: Starlink ISP
Post by: Vulcan on July 25, 2020, 01:37:46 AM
............and what if Starling actually works as promised?

Then scientists will have to revise the laws of physics in this universe.