Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: oboe on August 19, 2021, 03:15:17 PM
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Can anyone verify or corroborate the asymmetric spinner paint pattern shown on the plastic scale model? I haven't been able to find any other evidence of it.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=403595.0;attach=34193)
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=403595.0;attach=34195)
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Does the builder mention which decal sheet he used? There may be a clue there as some sheets will mention references.
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I have this decal sheet. Just need a good kit for it in the future. I put the same decals and scheme on a Revell P-38J, but that kit gives me PTSD to think about. I would never guess that one spinner is yellow. There are no pictures of the right boom that I can find or have found.
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Tamiya has come out with an F/G and a limited run H. I have both. Looks like it's laid out so they could easily make a J or L. I stopped building a long time ago but never really stopped collecting kits. But the videos and reviews on these new Tamiya kits all say easily best P-38 kits ever. Looking forward to building one of mine someday.
I have several of the Hasegawa and Academy kits, about every add on made for them and a ton of decals.
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Here's a good pic from a plane in the same squadron. Bare metal spinners on both sides.
(http://www.americanairmuseum.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/freeman/media-456788.jpg?itok=2wDJhieq)
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A split model with markings from different squadrons on each side?
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Wasn't it a common practice for Group or Squadron Leaders to paint their planes for extra recognition in the air? That's what I'm wondering if this might be an example of...
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Can anyone verify or corroborate the asymmetric spinner paint pattern shown on the plastic scale model? I haven't been able to find any other evidence of it.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=403595.0;attach=34193)
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=403595.0;attach=34195)
My photographic evidence says no at the point this photo was taken.
(https://i.imgur.com/OJLnM4oh.jpg)
Not relevant just a colour image.
(https://i.imgur.com/7oewbtHh.jpg)
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Keep in mind this is a continent based, 9th AF bird. Unlike the 8th AF Groups based on permanent bases in England, the resources to keep the paint jobs up to date was much less. Also in the ground attack role, these birds took a lot of hits, and had a lot of turnover so replacement parts may at the time of one photo not have been painted to match. Most likely the left spinner was a replacement and hadn't been painted. The 38s in particular bounced around too. As the 8th units transitioned to 51s, the 38s went to the 367th, 370th and 474th or even transferred to 15th AF 38 Groups. In the ETO the 474th was the only 38 Group until the end of the war, so they got hand me downs from the 367th and 370th. More often than not, the nose art wasn't removed or changed.
So you'd see 474th 38s flying with 367th or 370th unit markings. Again, they attrition was great in the ground attack role. They had to keep up the ground support as well, so having time to get the planes painted was way down the list.
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I think Lyric1's photo proves it had NMF spinners on both the left and right and most likely together at some point in its life so that's the safe option to skin. Personally I wouldn't do the yellow/black spinner without an original photo to back it up.
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Thanks guys, amazing you're amazing resources. Another head scratcher, the photo is dated Aug 1944, but the aircraft isn't being shown with D-Day recognition stripes, even the half stripes that were on many airplanes.
I thought they general time line was, full stripes in June-July 1944, a move to half stripes from late summer through the end of '44 to early '45, and then no stripes for planes in late Winter/early Spring 1945.
Could this plane have been a new-issue that didn't see service during the summer of '44, and so never had any stripes applied?
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Keep in mind this is a continent based, 9th AF bird. Unlike the 8th AF Groups based on permanent bases in England, the resources to keep the paint jobs up to date was much less. Also in the ground attack role, these birds took a lot of hits, and had a lot of turnover so replacement parts may at the time of one photo not have been painted to match. Most likely the left spinner was a replacement and hadn't been painted. The 38s in particular bounced around too. As the 8th units transitioned to 51s, the 38s went to the 367th, 370th and 474th or even transferred to 15th AF 38 Groups. In the ETO the 474th was the only 38 Group until the end of the war, so they got hand me downs from the 367th and 370th. More often than not, the nose art wasn't removed or changed.
So you'd see 474th 38s flying with 367th or 370th unit markings. Again, they attrition was great in the ground attack role. They had to keep up the ground support as well, so having time to get the planes painted was way down the list.
My thought too was a spare part ordeal. Took a hit and had to have a replacement and that was all that was available for a short time. I assume if it was any sort of longer term solution, it would've been documented in a diary or by photograph at some point.
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Scanned from the 367th FG History. This might explain the one spinner and the lack of D-Day stripes.
Note the bottom photo of the nose art states the image was taken at St. Quentin of Rogers and his new plane. They moved to St. Quentin on September 12, 1944. Combine it's his replacement plane for the wrecked bird seen in the other photos that happened at LeMans airfield, that they were at prior to St. Quentin for a very short time. The wrecked 38 has the half stripes. I doubt they took time to add them in September since the 38 was easily identifiable due to it's shape.
Now look at the wrecked spinner in the photo in the middle. It seems to suggest some sort of paint scheme similar to what the the model builder used, although I believe it's just the shadow of the bent propeller blade. Could be he misread the history in some way and thought it was of the same bird as the lower replacement 38 for the CO. Also note that the look on the same photo published in the book as was posted by Lyric1, that appeared in the history book, looks just a bit different in the tone on the right spinner back half. Also might suggest the model builder was playing guess your best :)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/s199/guppy35/39Years040.jpg)
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For giggles I ran it through a colorizer, which may be what they did too.
(https://i.ibb.co/Cm594dV/playback-fm-colorize-photo-be6fbdc2e072d924ed18f2ef9a756562.jpg)
By no means proof, but might play a role in why the kit chose yellow. Busted up spinner shows yellow, while the bottom picture shows the proper NMF.
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Thanks guys. Whatta great group you are!
Also, has this skin been in AH previously? I can’t recall for sure.
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Thanks guys. Whatta great group you are!
Also, has this skin been in AH previously? I can’t recall for sure.
I bet not with the Swastikas everywhere.
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I bet not with the Swastikas everywhere.
The kill swastikas are easy to change, without really significantly affecting the historical accuracy of the skin. The nose art though, is a different story. Changing that would alter the key feature of the skin, the thing that makes it unique. The way I look at it, is that its NOT a swastika. At some point, it WAS a swastika, before the mule kicked it into pieces. But its not a swastika anymore...
I'm pretty sure this skin is part of the default P-38J skin set in IL-2. Been awhile since I've been on there. Not sure how they handled the kill marks.
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The kill swastikas are easy to change, without really significantly affecting the historical accuracy of the skin. The nose art though, is a different story. Changing that would alter the key feature of the skin, the thing that makes it unique. The way I look at it, is that its NOT a swastika. At some point, it WAS a swastika, before the mule kicked it into pieces. But its not a swastika anymore...
I'm pretty sure this skin is part of the default P-38J skin set in IL-2. Been awhile since I've been on there. Not sure how they handled the kill marks.
I bet the larger texture size of the new P-38 model would allow you to adequately represent the nose art. I don't think it would be possible on the older model.
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This scheme was never skinned on the old P-38 shape, most likely because of the Swastika issue. I had assumed you were going to do the usual AH thing and replace them all with crosses, even the big one. I have my doubts about whether saying its a broken Swastika is really going to cut it with Hitech as anyone who sees it will still recognise it for what it is. I suggest you ask him if its OK before spending time doing it that way.
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That's a good idea, Greebo - thanks. I'll PM Hitech and ask him.
I don't think I would substitute such an important design element in the nose artwork with something else, like an Iron Cross, for example. I think that would skew it to more of a fictional, rather than historical skin.
I did check out IL-2 Great Battles, and this skin is represented with the artwork as it really was, but the swastika kill marks' centers are hollow, making them look more like squares.
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I wouldn't bother. There are others that would be just as cool without the potential controversy, IMHO.
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I bet the larger texture size of the new P-38 model would allow you to adequately represent the nose art. I don't think it would be possible on the older model.
It would have been a bear.
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Having second thoughts about this skin. While I still like the colorful cartoon nose art, without painted spinners, tail stripes or emblems, or D-Day stripes or boom stripes - from the pilot's perspective in the cockpit this aircraft would be indistinguishable from a factory fresh bare metal aircraft...
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...from the pilot's perspective in the cockpit this aircraft would be indistinguishable from a factory fresh bare metal aircraft...
I would not worry about that so much. A skin from that squadron in those style markings might still be useful in events.
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Having second thoughts about this skin. While I still like the colorful cartoon nose art, without painted spinners, tail stripes or emblems, or D-Day stripes or boom stripes - from the pilot's perspective in the cockpit this aircraft would be indistinguishable from a factory fresh bare metal aircraft...
That aspect has never bothered me. Zemke's 38 is fairly plain but it still has value because of who he was. I intend to skin that one again.
The issue with this one is how badly you'll need to mangle the nose art to satisfy the censors so to speak.
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Yeah, I don't think I'd be willing to alter the nose art. Kill marks are one thing, eliminating tail swastika markings, sure. But that nose art is basically the focal point of this skin - there aren't really any other elements. Wouldn't feel right to me to change it. As you say, there are plenty of other subjects that wouldn't be controversial.
I like to have visual cues from the cockpit to help me remember which skin I'm in, if I can. In the very old '38G skins I did, I had different pinup cards inside the cockpit.
Why did Zemke have a '38, anyway? Wasn't he the leader of the 56th FG, and didn't they fly P-47s exclusively? Was he really a member of S.A.P.P.?
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Took command of a P-38 group that eventually switched to 51s. In his book he says he ripped a wing in the mustang flying thru a storm over Germany. Was a POW til end of the war.
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Took command of a P-38 group that eventually switched to 51s. In his book he says he ripped a wing in the mustang flying thru a storm over Germany. Was a POW til end of the war.
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Ah, thanks Drano!
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Why did Zemke have a '38, anyway? Wasn't he the leader of the 56th FG, and didn't they fly P-47s exclusively? Was he really a member of S.A.P.P.?
https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,398952.msg5288189.html#msg5288189
Thanks to Lyric1 for digging up some important photos of this airplane and others in the Group.
This is the the P-38J-15-LO (S/N 43-28823) coded 823-Z flown by Col. Hubert "Hub" Zemke upon assignment as commander of the 479th FG in August 1944. The 479th’s P-38s would later be replaced with P-51Ds. Zemke is most well known for his exploits flying P-47s with the 56th FG. He spent the end of the war as a POW after his Mustang disintegrated in a storm forcing him to bail out over enemy territory, his final tally being 19.5 victories.
The aircraft was subsequently lost on 25 December 1944 during a strafing run at La Roche, Belgium. Hit by flak as the aircraft leveled off, it caught fire, climbed 2-300ft before diving into ground and exploding on impact. The pilot, 1st Lt. Bobbie R Rankin, was killed. (MACR 11900)
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Took command of a P-38 group that eventually switched to 51s. In his book he says he ripped a wing in the mustang flying thru a storm over Germany. Was a POW til end of the war.
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Which book is that? I feel the need....the need....to read!
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Zemke's Wolfpack. His autobiography. Good read.
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http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/12675
(http://www.americanairmuseum.com/sites/default/files/freeman/media-456914.jpg)
Colonel Hubert Zemke, Commanding officer of the 479th Fighter Group with his P-51 Mustang. Zemke has handwritten on the reverse: 'Zemke as Co 479 Fitr Group No particular insignia or canopy paint was put on this aircraft. In shot it was aluminium colour. This is the P-51D that did me in by shedding a wing.'
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https://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/11456
(https://www.americanairmuseum.com/sites/default/files/freeman/media-456744.jpg)
Colonel Hubert Zemke of the 479th Fighter Group on the wing of P-38J-15-LO, s/n 43-28823 coded J2-Z. Aircraft was later transferred to the 428th Fighter Squadron, 474th Fighter Group. This ship was lost to flak just south of Manhay, Belgium on 25 December 1944. The pilot, 1Lt. Bobby R. Rankin, was KIA (MACR 11900).
(I don't think it had J2 on it when flown by Zemke but I'm not where I can access my research files to confirm.)
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can't even imagine how difficult it must've been to bail out of an aircraft that had lost a wing.
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He took a good hit from the plane getting out.
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Bobbie Rankin, on the left of this image from the 428th FS, 474th FG history "The Geyser Gang". He was a squadron favorite and his loss was hard on the guys who'd been flying with him since May of 44 when he joined the 428th. Having been a 474th junkie for a long time, including the DGS Scenario where back in the day of large scenarios I had 36 P-38s in the virtual 474th, names like Bobbie Rankin were in my mind as we took the 474th skinned 38s into Germany. Oh to get back to the days of scenarios like that. During that scenario I corresponded with the man on the right in the photo, Lloyd Wenzel, and got the images of the P-38L that was skinned for the scenario from him.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/s199/guppy35/Rankin.jpg)
From DGS. My favorite photo as I can remember the conversation we were having as we headed out to rendezvous with the bombers. Nothing but history.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/.highres/474thOutbound.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
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Wow. That's amazing.
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One of the best AH experiences for me was DGS. We had such a long sortie - bomber escort deep into Germany in P-38s with twin drop tanks. We used it all and I remember landing at the end of the frame with empty tanks. A real nail biter. Was a great, realistic touch to have a mix of Js and Ls in our Group, just like the real thing.
Think I see "Baby Shoes The Second" in that frame.
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This scheme was never skinned on the old P-38 shape, most likely because of the Swastika issue. I had assumed you were going to do the usual AH thing and replace them all with crosses, even the big one. I have my doubts about whether saying its a broken Swastika is really going to cut it with Hitech as anyone who sees it will still recognise it for what it is. I suggest you ask him if its OK before spending time doing it that way.
Just sent Hitech a message asking about this skin's nose art and whether it's acceptable as is for Aces High. Thanks for suggesting this Greebo.
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One of the best AH experiences for me was DGS. We had such a long sortie - bomber escort deep into Germany in P-38s with twin drop tanks. We used it all and I remember landing at the end of the frame with empty tanks. A real nail biter. Was a great, realistic touch to have a mix of Js and Ls in our Group, just like the real thing.
Think I see "Baby Shoes The Second" in that frame.
I flew Baby Shoes the entire scenario. Got a screenshot somewhere of you going upwards after a !09 and me going down after another where we both scored :)
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I remember that one!
We'll have to pull together everything we have on 474th FG P-38s. I intend to do at least one or two. But the info I have on squadron spinner colors is contradictory, and I haven't looked at it since the P-38 3D model changed.
I recall we learned "Baby Shoes" had baby shoe nose art on the right side, and I do have a generic image of some baby shoes but don't have a reference photo...
Still playing with Dirty Nellie art also, I hope to make that work.
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I remember that one!
We'll have to pull together everything we have on 474th FG P-38s. I intend to do at least one or two. But the info I have on squadron spinner colors is contradictory, and I haven't looked at it since the P-38 3D model changed.
I recall we learned "Baby Shoes" had baby shoe nose art on the right side, and I do have a generic image of some baby shoes but don't have a reference photo...
Still playing with Dirty Nellie art also, I hope to make that work.
Here are the Baby Shoes images. It had yellow spinners. When we were hunting info back then, I'd found the photos in the 428th FS history. Turns out it was in the 430th. They were better at keeping the yellow spinners. The right side can be seen in this photo
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/s199/guppy35/Baby_Shoes_0001.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
The others
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/s199/guppy35/Baby_Shoes_0002.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/s199/guppy35/Baby_Shoes_0003.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/s199/guppy35/Baby_Shoes_0004.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
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And just for fun and nostalgia
That Dogfight. one going up and one going down. Two 109s bought it :)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/s199/guppy35/Snap14-1.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
Covered Soulyss and his single engined 38L back home. Nice formation landing. Both 474th skins
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/s199/guppy35/Snap3-3.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
Can you imagine two bomber streams in a scenario these days? 24s in one and 17s in others. Both being covered by fighters and intercepted by mobs of LW fighters? Ahh those were the days :)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/s199/guppy35/Alposboys.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/s199/guppy35/17Formation.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
And the taxi in and line up at the end of the frame routine. Just one group. Can't get that many planes on either side in a scenario anymore :(
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/s199/guppy35/474TaxiIn.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/s199/guppy35/Snap19-1.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
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Yeah was probably the last big one. Good times!
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Definitely a high-water mark for AH for me. Hope we can get back to that someday.
Thanks for the photos! Interesting, the burned out section of Baby Shoe's boom - that's near the battery compartment in the left boom. Wonder if it was an electrical fire?
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There was some artwork done of Baby Shoes buy aviation artist Steve Tack. Don't have this one, but it's out there signed by some 474th pilots in 2011.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/s199/guppy35/D-9_V_0XoAA-TEr.jpg)
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I never did hear anything back from Hitech regarding the nose art of this skin. I interpreted his silence at the time as disinterest in being involved with making censoring decisions, but I put P-38s on hold and moved on to skinning the B-17G. I recently double-checked and this skin is present as an official game skin in IL-2 with accurate nose art (only the kill-tally swastikas have been altered), so it's clear the IL-2 censors don't have a problem with the nose art. With IL-2's much larger audience and worldwide player base, I would expect their censors must adhere to rigorous standards.
I've put a little more work in on her, and here she is so far, still WIP. If you guys think it won't pass censorship, I would probably reskin it as another bird from the same squadron, "Moonlight Cocktail". I just prefer this more colorful nose art.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=403595.0;attach=35304)
I'm guessing that there is no real formal censor group in AH any longer - it's probably just this informal discussion here on the boards, with Greebo of course having the final YES/NO as he is the one to approve skins and pass on to Hitech's skin release process. That's really OK with me if that's how it works now; we still need some form of input after all. So just let me know one way or the other. It looks like I might still have time to finish this one up and get it submitted before the next batch...
Also interesting, it appears there were TWO "Lttle Buckaroos" (as unlikely as that seems). One, serial number 43-28677, coded H5*B, and the other 44-23677, H5*A. I haven't found hard photo evidence tying the nose art to either serial number, but it just seems unlikely that such intricate nose art would be repeated on second airframe.
<S>
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:aok
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Looks nice.
One option is to round the outer corners of the swastika. Then it is not as obvious.
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Looks great.
I think the nose art is fine as is. It clearly represents smashing Naziism.
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I tend to agree with Devil, the art is clearly anti-Nazi and it is broken into four little "Ls". The symbolism is what counts here, not the shape. Otherwise we wouldn't be allowed accurate markings on Finnish Air Force skins. So I will approve this skin for the current batch if Oboe submits it. For anyone's future skins however, kill markings of swastikas should still be altered to crosses.
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OK, thanks guys -- I have tweaked the nose art a little more, brekaing up the central portion of white to emphasize the 'broken pieces' aspect of the symbol; the kill marks had already been changed to crosses. As far as H5-A vs H5-B, I just noticed another unique serial number, this time on H5-A, from a photo Dan posted earlier in this thread. The top image clearly ends in '579', not '677':
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/s199/guppy35/39Years040.jpg)
I suppose once Rogers became CO, any new air frame he received became coded H5-A. I will probably leave it as H5-B, but intend to do some research on Joe Baugher's site first. I should be able to submit this skin before Friday.