Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Wanker on April 13, 2000, 08:07:00 AM
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Pyro was on last night, and as usual, I started badgering him about which planes were coming down the pipeline. The only plane he would confirm as definately coming at some time was the Japanese Zero.
I'm trying to understand the logic behind bringing the Zero into a late war planeset. We old Warbirds vets know what happens when you add early-mid war planes into an arena full of late war uber planes--they end up not being used. Of course, a few Zeke die-hards will fly it regardsless of this(Ghosth (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)). But wouldn't it make more sense to fill up a late war planeset(complete with F8f, Do-335, P-47D/M, P-61(your welcome, Rip), Ki-84, and then start going backwards in time and adding planes from the earlier war time.
Just so you understand where I'm coming from, I am a bonafide Zeke driver, and an early war plane lover. Nothing would tickle my fancy more than to see the Hurricane I, F4F and my beloved SBD-5 and D3a Val make an appearance into AH.
I just think it would make more sense, and we would all get better mileage, out of planes that will be competative with the current planeset. Except for a few Zeke experten like Ghosth, I can't see how an A6m-5 is going to be able to seriously compete with a P-51D, or a FW-190, or even the Typhoon. I know that if I encounter a Zeke, I'll simply extend, and come back with guns blazing.
So, help me understand why we want Natedog and Superfly to go through all the trouble of making these planes now, when perhaps the better time to introduce the Zeke would be at a later time, when it can be introduced with a whole host of early-mid war planes.
Personally, I don't believe it's a good move to jump around and add a couple of early war planes, and then a couple of late war, etc.
Unless, of course, we'll be seeing a rolling planeset or seperate arenas for the different eras in the near future.
Let's face it, everyone has their favorite plane(s), but haven't we learned something from the Warbirds experience, where some really cool planes don't get used because they are worse than dead meat on the table in a late war environment?
I'm not trying to step on any toes here, especially not Pyro or any of the HTC folks, but I am curious about the logic behind how planes are selected for addition into AH. Is there a gameplan, where every plane and vehicle coming into AH is decided upon in advance? Or does it just take a case of HiTech's favorite beer to get your plane of choice into the game? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Inquiring minds want to know. How does HTC make it's decisions about how the vehicle/planeset is going to evolve?
Please, I ask everyone to keep this discussion civil, and not turn it into a lobbying match for your favorite plane.
This is a serious fundamental question, and while I understand that HTC may not want to say too much about this, I was hoping for someone to shed at least a little light on the subject.
Thanks in advance,
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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
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I definitely have to agree banana.
The A6M5 is not going to be a viable aircraft in the arena, with the current planeset, for exactly the reasons you mentioned.
IMO the Ki-84 or the Ki-100 would be much better choices for a new japanese plane.
The only reason I can see for a A6M5 would be if it fits into some other master plan of Pyro's, like CV's.
Sorry to say this but otherwise its a waste of resources, in my opinon.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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I think you are right. In another thread I've just posted the same thing.
IMHO the Zeke will be used for field defence, like in WB. The Zeke is an outstanding early-mid war fighter.
Do we want to see the RL k/d ratio of the F4U-1D here? How was it 10/1, 15/1? Or a new AH Turkeys Shot? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Much more useful would be a Ki84 or one of those late war Japanese beautiful high alt fighters (dont ask me which one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 04-13-2000).]
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"..beautiful high alt fighters (dont ask me which one."
J2M3 RAIDEN!!!!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(http://www.totavia.com/~ACybriw/aviapix/Fighters/Jack/raiden01.jpg)
-Westy
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So may be they are doing the right thing and starting to introduce early/mid war planes?
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Miko2d,
Personally, I don't believe it's a good move to jump around and add a couple of early war planes, and then a couple of late war, etc.
Thats what I fear. Thats why actually the C.202, the Bf109F-4 and (perhaps) the Spit MkV are no competitive. I'm an early war buff, but from what I see HTC has built a strange mix in the arena. A long time ago I asked for all late war kites and only then go back to 1943->42->41->40.
I'd like to see Blitzkrieg, then BoB, then Pacific, then North Africa plane sets, but this is what I have to deal with. What can I do? I can ask for a Ki84 Frank or a J2M3 Raiden (thanks Westy) and not for a turkey-A6M5.
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Ki84 with actual combat performance (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (not WB performance thx (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
and RAIDEN! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Brewster Buffalo model 239 please! In Finnish Air Force colours, of course (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Well, they're adding the zeke for a good reason:
People will claim the game is incomplete without one. This game is primarily about fighters, and, for good or bad, you can't sell a sim as having some viable IJ planes without the zeke.
You can't say the same about any other IJ plane.
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Well, you may be correct on this one, Dinger. If that is the reason, then I guess from a business perspective, I'd go along with it. But we shouldn't just assume that's the reason. Pyro, care to confirm Dinger's hypothosis?
Citabria and LLV34, please don't hijack this thread by plugging yer favorite plane. This discussion is at a higher level than individual plane recommendations.
Thanks,
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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
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Well you all know by now that I have a different perspective on this. (Thanks banana (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
Spit V not competitive? Since when?
If memory serves me correctly I took down 3 p38's 3 spit's, a B17 last night with one.
OK I cheated, I had a buddy in a 38 keep the pesky p51's away.
Same will hold true for the A6m5 IMHO.
Field defence, it rocks plain & simple.
banana says the fast planes will just extend & come back guns blazeing. Ya know what, he's right. & all the time that they are extending I'm either chewing up someone else, or climbing. By the time that he comes back he's still got no shot.
As to the F4U, well I had a friend who liked one once upon a time. He was talking about the 10 - 1 kill ratio they had against zeke's. (Which brought my hackles up of course)
So we setup a H2H, 20k airstart cold merge.
The first 8 times he did his best to extend, keep it fast, etc.
To make a long story short I got him 9 out of 10.
Now I'm not saying I can do that in AH.
Far from it, Gunnery is different, I don't even know what the flight modeling is going to be like.
But competitive YES.
Ohhh parting shot, out of the 50 some bird available in Brand W. I have shot down at some point in open arena each & every one of them. Includeing the ME 262.
Do I want to see a KI-84, KI-61, KI-100,
along with the other late ware planes, of cousrse. Do I want the zero first YOU BET I DO!
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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels
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I agree with Dinger's guess. You cannot bypass a fighter that was the most significant fighter of a country, indeed was the fighter by which a country was known.
It doesn't have to necessarily happen in the order it is, but it has to be modeled at some point.
BTW, I like the Franz, C202, and Spit V. They have their uses, and sometimes when I just want to tangle furball style. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Ghosth <S>,
So, we both agree that we want the Zero in the game. but we just differ on when.
PR notwithstanding, I still think the best way to go about it is to focus on "eras" of WW2 aircraft. Something akin to "We're going to be focusing on the late war aircraft for the next six months, so please don't beg us for the Hurricane I or Brewster Buffalo until we have met our goal for the late war planeset."
Just one Dweeb's opinion.
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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
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Last night, someone asked Pryo about building a certain plane (I forget which). He said it will definately be built, but it won't *always* be available.
So I asked him - does this mean he was suggesting the introduction of an RPS in AH? He said no, but they are going to be introducing *some* kind of system wrt to the availablity of planes, and would fill us in on it later.
Just like everything in AH, the crew at HTC aren't just haphazardly throwing things into the game. banana, it sounds like they have already considered this.
Just for fun... Since it WON'T be an RPS, but it WILL be *something*... What kinda system do ya think they have in mind?
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Thanks banana (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Good post, but I think the question should be, where are we going with AH? Is it going to have a RPS? or separate late war/early arena's? I think its too early to tell right now, they are still drying their wings out after being hatched from the shell, but I can tell you one thing, they will do what will bring customers knocking at the door. That's a good thing for everyone!
(banana, I knew there was a reason I liked you, Rochester, MN. I grew up in Coon Rapids and Forest Lake, MN, just North of you, on Hwy.61)
Now, where the HELL is my P61 !?!
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/p61.jpg)
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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
I/JG2~Richthofen~
JG2 Communications Officer
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/ripsnort.jpg)
Turning Spitfires into Bud Lite cans since 1992
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 04-13-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 04-13-2000).]
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Something along the lines of two large pepperoni pizzas for the use of the P-47 for two weeks. A case of micro-brewed beer for a week of F7F Tiger Cat flying. Want a TA-152? Gonna have to cough up two sauerkraut unt knockwurst dinners, per week! KantGo Wong Chinese takeout dinners for 6, delivered to HTC, for one weeks use of an ME-262.
Want a Zeke? A Gift certificate for $20.00 at Benny Hana's per week. Want a P-61? Better be checking out the Napa Valley wine makers and be prepared to send two cases of good vino for a months supply of that BlackWidow beauty.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hey Westy, whats the price of a Spitfire MkXIV? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Sisu
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Excellent thread and a nice post banana.
I don't really agree with you guys, but I do understand your line of thinking. Problem is your thinking only of a "main" arena.
If pyro puts in an A6M3 and lets say a P-40E or F4F your probably right they will not see much action in a large arena, but as many of you already pointed out this is not just about a "main" arena. Many of us would enjoy a "Historical Arena" or "Special Event". With a couple early war planes we have the option for a early war "special event" as opposed to just another late war "special event".
I would lay money that if we had a special event with some late war planes and then another, same time same place with a couple early war planes, the latter would pull more numbers. Of course if we just had early war planes in the main the reverse would be true also. So just because we have late war planes don't think it odd to put in some early war ones.
I say mix and match. Put in some early war planes, we will put them to good use. Granted not much in the main, but in Special Events or a Historical Arena they would be embraced. Besides as soon as a Historical Arena is up and running you will hardly ever see me in the main. :
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daddog C.O.
332nd Flying Mongrels (http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm)
Where men become friends and friends become brothers.
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Can you say - "rolling planeset"?
IF early war palnes are to be added - either a Early War Arena or rolling planset will really be the only way to implement them...
I personally enjoy the rolling planeset. It get's you out of the grind of one plane for the entire TOD.
-rkat-
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I _totally_ agree with daddog. With any kind of attempt at an historical arena you NEED certain planes- competetive or not. And the planes missing from the planeset right now are japanese and russian ones. Nash should have added that Pyro also mentioned they were debating how much mileage a Yak with all the variants would give them.
Right now the japs have 1 late war and russian 1 mid war plane. it's time to flush out either side of these two air forces.
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banana, first off you & me arn't that much different (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As to the above discussion a lot depends on how you define "competitive". One thing for sure in open arena the zeke would not be an "easy" ride. Landed kills would be a lot more difficult to come by. Teamwork a good wingman, & SA are all going to have to be better than the opposition.
Does that mean it won't be competitive?
Not in my book it doesn't.
You just have to work harder (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Several other great points posted above.
Litterally too many to mention. I think it's enough to say I'm ready & waiting for it to debut. How well it stands up & where & when it will be used will be determined by how well it fly's and shoots.
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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels
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Well, as usual, we find a lot of common ground. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'd love to see as much early and mid war planes as HTC can crank out, if there's a seperate arena(think HA) or an RPS. The thoughts in my original post were based on what we have now. I bet HTC gets a good laugh when they read threads like this, since we are clueless and they are not. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
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It would be nice to see specific historical areas all the time. Then a rolling plane set could also be employed. For example one of my great interests is the SW pacific. Specifically the battles around Port Morsby (sp) thru the Solomons to Rabaul. The plane set could start with the 1941 set and evenually work toward the 1943 set. It would be an excellent experience to start flying a P-39, P-40 and eventually get the P-38 vrs the A6M2-5. Plus use the Historical squadron setups for bombing missions, shipping strikes etc. Now I am rambling, better get back to work, just a few thoughts
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Milo
"A MiG on your 6 is better than no MiG at all"
II/JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
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I don't view the Zero as a non-competitive plane. Encountered one on one, a good pilot knows how to take care of one. Also, we're bringing a fairly late war Zero into the set. While it's still outclassed in most regards, it serves a good purpose. We want a good mix of planes, and there's many planes which are just going to be staples, it's not whether they'll be done, it's when they'll be done that is the real issue.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
Perfect plans, aren't.
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You gotta love that last line (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
thzone
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Gotta love the Zero. Saburo Sakai took on 15 Hellcats in his A6M5 and didn't get hit once. This was a guy who was blind in his right eye. He didn't get any of them, but they didn't touch him despite the odds. So the Zero'll take care of you if you take care of her.
Pyro, A6M5c with self-sealing tanks please, please, please. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sisu
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Hehehehe I'm certain Saburo Sakai took on 15 hellcats and wasn't hit once... is accurate... if he would have been hit ONCE he would have gone BOOOOOOOOM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I know the armorcrews called the sherman 'Ronson' (after a famous lighter, they were prone to catch fire when hit)
So I suggest we come up with some new names for the 'zero'
1)Riceplane (WB)
2)Flying fireworks
3)Napalm delight
4)ZERO survival (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
PS: This is sure as hell gonna make ghosth very angry (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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BEE(JENG)
=CO=II/JG2~Richthofen~
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/109bee.gif)
'Nemo Me Impune Lacessit'
[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 04-14-2000).]
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The most enjoyable flights I ever had in brand W was flying h2h in Vals. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (I have to smile just thinking about those duels)
Just something about the slow pace and shooting spitwads at each other made it a great A/C for learning basic ACM skills.
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332nd Flying Mongrels
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A ki 100 would be a better addition. A ki 84 and the raiden would be my second choices. Ilove zero's but they will not be flown. if you want to have a scenario you must have it though. I would think this is why their making it.
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BUFFALO!
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Thanks for the reply, Pyro.
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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF