Eagler, I seldom disagree with you, but how would an anti-fraud law passed in 1921 be a political topic? I suppose if the law were applied injudiciously by one particular party to punish or otherwise encumber an opposing party, its application would become political, but just the simple statement that a 100 year old law is about to become front and center does not seem to me to be political.
Just my opinion, as always.
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: Hungry on February 15, 2022, 10:25:31 AM
Eagler, I seldom disagree with you, but how would an anti-fraud law passed in 1921 be a political topic? I suppose if the law were applied injudiciously by one particular party to punish or otherwise encumber an opposing party, its application would become political, but just the simple statement that a 100 year old law is about to become front and center does not seem to me to be political.
Just my opinion, as always.
The hidden part is what or who is the Martin Act being applied to, that's what would make it political, Eagler assumes and probably rightfully so based on Bushers past political leanings
Just a guess, lol
"What is the Martin Act? The Martin Act, a New York state law, gives the New York attorney general the power to investigate any publicly-held company for financial fraud as long as the company in question trades securities in the state"
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: Hungry on February 15, 2022, 10:29:56 AM
In addition, what distinguishes the Martin Act from other securities laws across the United States is its unusually broad scope. To prove a violation under the Act, New York state is not required to prove a given action was intentional; it must simply prove that a company has misrepresented or omitted a material fact or engaged in other conduct which deceives or misleads the public, or even tends to deceive or mislead the public.
Additionally, under the Martin Act, the NY AG can investigate, issue subpoenas and demand corporations produce documents without probable cause or the ruling of a grand jury. The state is not required to provide proof of scienter (intent or knowledge of wrongdoing), damages to the public, or reasonable reliance (what a prudent person would believe and act upon if told something by another).
CRITICISM OF THE MARTIN ACT Troublingly, the Martin Act also allows the NY AG to subpoena witnesses to appear for an interview, or to provide written statements or documents, without going before a grand jury. Because these subpoenas are purely “investigatory,” witnesses subpoenaed by the attorney general cannot claim a right to counsel or the right against self-incrimination.
Legal experts have vocalized concerns that the Martin Act is an overreach of the state’s authority. Without needing to prove malicious intent, the NY AG has the ability to prosecute a company through an almost limitless scope, threatening the balance between state and federal authority.
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: Busher on February 15, 2022, 11:09:42 AM
The hidden part is what or who is the Martin Act being applied to, that's what would make it political, Eagler assumes and probably rightfully so based on Bushers past political leanings
Just a guess, lol
"What is the Martin Act? The Martin Act, a New York state law, gives the New York attorney general the power to investigate any publicly-held company for financial fraud as long as the company in question trades securities in the state"
One minor correction. The Martin Act's powers are not limited only to "publicly held" corporations.
The assumption based upon my "political leanings" are irrelevant - all I am saying is that it will be interesting to watch the application of the law.
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: Shuffler on February 15, 2022, 12:25:55 PM
This is not political.... I prefer the Jerry Lewis act though. :D
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: Eagler on February 15, 2022, 12:28:30 PM
Please explain the application you think it will be used for?
I have my guesses but to state them would show a political agenda to some who would then scream to kill the thread
Look it up ... as to post a link would get some hollering to lock it..
Nice try Busher lol
Eagler
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: Eagler on February 15, 2022, 12:32:05 PM
Clue look up the parody of this Martin act for who will be targeted
https://youtu.be/FYbavuReVF4
Eagler
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: Busher on February 15, 2022, 12:51:07 PM
In addition, what distinguishes the Martin Act from other securities laws across the United States is its unusually broad scope. To prove a violation under the Act, New York state is not required to prove a given action was intentional; it must simply prove that a company has misrepresented or omitted a material fact or engaged in other conduct which deceives or misleads the public, or even tends to deceive or mislead the public.
Additionally, under the Martin Act, the NY AG can investigate, issue subpoenas and demand corporations produce documents without probable cause or the ruling of a grand jury. The state is not required to provide proof of scienter (intent or knowledge of wrongdoing), damages to the public, or reasonable reliance (what a prudent person would believe and act upon if told something by another).
CRITICISM OF THE MARTIN ACT Troublingly, the Martin Act also allows the NY AG to subpoena witnesses to appear for an interview, or to provide written statements or documents, without going before a grand jury. Because these subpoenas are purely “investigatory,” witnesses subpoenaed by the attorney general cannot claim a right to counsel or the right against self-incrimination.
Legal experts have vocalized concerns that the Martin Act is an overreach of the state’s authority. Without needing to prove malicious intent, the NY AG has the ability to prosecute a company through an almost limitless scope, threatening the balance between state and federal authority.
Very accurate summary, Hungry
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: RotBaron on February 15, 2022, 06:05:26 PM
a police officer can come to your house and ask questions because somebody believes a crime has happen, that's pure investigatory, they just asking questions if a crime was committed or not. based on the facts they gather then it's up to the da to decide if a crime has been committed. not any different than the martin act. she cant prosecute it, but if a crime has been committed she can send all relevant info to whoever can.
it's just that simple.
semp
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: Hungry on February 15, 2022, 06:42:44 PM
a police officer can come to your house and ask questions because somebody believes a crime has happen, that's pure investigatory, they just asking questions if a crime was committed or not. based on the facts they gather then it's up to the da to decide if a crime has been committed. not any different than the martin act. she cant prosecute it, but if a crime has been committed she can send all relevant info to whoever can.
it's just that simple.
semp
issue subpoenas and demand corporations produce documents without probable cause or the ruling of a grand jury. The state is not required to provide proof of scienter (intent or knowledge of wrongdoing), damages to the public, or reasonable reliance (what a prudent person would believe and act upon if told something by another).
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: guncrasher on February 15, 2022, 06:52:28 PM
issue subpoenas and demand corporations produce documents without probable cause or the ruling of a grand jury. The state is not required to provide proof of scienter (intent or knowledge of wrongdoing), damages to the public, or reasonable reliance (what a prudent person would believe and act upon if told something by another).
but in this specific case somebody did say my property is worth more to get a loan then claim it's worth less to pay less taxes. that's probable cause.
semp
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: Busher on February 15, 2022, 07:16:06 PM
issue subpoenas and demand corporations produce documents without probable cause or the ruling of a grand jury. The state is not required to provide proof of scienter (intent or knowledge of wrongdoing), damages to the public, or reasonable reliance (what a prudent person would believe and act upon if told something by another).
Further to Semp's point, debating the application of the law accomplishes little more than complaining that the 25 mph speed limit on Main street in your hometown is unfair to drivers. Don't like the law? File an argument before SCOTUS.
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: Hungry on February 15, 2022, 07:36:03 PM
but in this specific case somebody did say my property is worth more to get a loan then claim it's worth less to pay less taxes. that's probable cause.
semp
Ok, but the Martin Act doesnt need probable cause, what are you trying to compare????
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: guncrasher on February 15, 2022, 08:04:47 PM
Ok, but the Martin Act doesnt need probable cause, what are you trying to compare????
how can you say that your buildings are worth more to get a better loan but at the same time claim that your buildings are worth less to pay less taxes. that looks like probable cause to me. dont you see that?
semp
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: guncrasher on February 15, 2022, 08:13:34 PM
just to explain to you in every state there's laws where you cannot lie on a loan to get better terms, so if you say your property is worth more, then you go to the state and claim your property is worth less to pay less property taxes. so who did you lie to, the financial companies or the state or local property tax.
semp
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: CptTrips on February 15, 2022, 11:46:58 PM
Further to Semp's point, debating the application of the law accomplishes little more than complaining that the 25 mph speed limit on Main street in your hometown is unfair to drivers. Don't like the law? File an argument before SCOTUS.
Laws like that aren't sexy, but they can have teeth.
They didn't get Capone on murder, or extortion, or racketeering. They got him on tax evasion.
Whatever works. He still died in a prison cell of syphilis raging like a lunatic. Justice served.
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: Eagler on February 16, 2022, 07:46:08 AM
Who has the state of NY been targeting since 2016?
It should be interesting if not criminal
Eagler
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: Hungry on February 16, 2022, 08:24:19 AM
how can you say that your buildings are worth more to get a better loan but at the same time claim that your buildings are worth less to pay less taxes. that looks like probable cause to me. dont you see that?
semp
Don't you see that. lol so again what are you trying to compare or are you just trying to make an irrelevant point to come off as relevant?
What you mention is a crime, probable cause, so what's that have to do with the Martin Act not needing probable cause
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: Hungry on February 16, 2022, 08:31:09 AM
just to explain to you in every state there's laws where you cannot lie on a loan to get better terms, so if you say your property is worth more, then you go to the state and claim your property is worth less to pay less property taxes. so who did you lie to, the financial companies or the state or local property tax.
semp
Explain to me, hehe, gee I didn't know that if you purger yourself on a loan application or your taxes its considered a crime, this is like a conversation from another planet, dont be surprised if I dont respond anymore, I should have known better in the first place. I also know by me not further responding it opens you up to post a ranting comeback but thats ok too have at it.
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: guncrasher on February 16, 2022, 11:53:25 AM
Explain to me, hehe, gee I didn't know that if you purger yourself on a loan application or your taxes its considered a crime, this is like a conversation from another planet, dont be surprised if I dont respond anymore, I should have known better in the first place. I also know by me not further responding it opens you up to post a ranting comeback but thats ok too have at it.
I went back to the web sites I read, turns out the several stories I read were based on a satirical website but had been modified to change as if they had appeared in leading newspapers.
my bad.
semp
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: decoy on February 16, 2022, 12:10:43 PM
how can you say that your buildings are worth more to get a better loan but at the same time claim that your buildings are worth less to pay less taxes. that looks like probable cause to me. dont you see that?
semp
Absent the issue of probably cause and attempt to defraud....
In the 1980s I was in the business of selling and erecting metal buildings, so when it came time to build my house, I started with a metal building. It was a great plan and I wound up building a house for $28/square foot, when the going construction costs were about $80/ft(2). Ah, but the bank said, "It's a metal sided building, so we can only loan money on it as if it's a mobile home." What? No axle, no frame, no tongue, no mobile home. "Sorry, mobile home loan is all you get." But the Tax Commissioner (who happened to be a relative - small town, right?) said, "No, we can't tax it like a mobile home because it's on a concrete slab."
Trust me, if I could have figured out a way to get a) a lower rate loan and b) a lower tax rate, I would have. It could not be done. Eventually I sold the place and moved on.
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: guncrasher on February 16, 2022, 12:34:40 PM
Absent the issue of probably cause and attempt to defraud....
In the 1980s I was in the business of selling and erecting metal buildings, so when it came time to build my house, I started with a metal building. It was a great plan and I wound up building a house for $28/square foot, when the going construction costs were about $80/ft(2). Ah, but the bank said, "It's a metal sided building, so we can only loan money on it as if it's a mobile home." What? No axle, no frame, no tongue, no mobile home. "Sorry, mobile home loan is all you get." But the Tax Commissioner (who happened to be a relative - small town, right?) said, "No, we can't tax it like a mobile home because it's on a concrete slab."
Trust me, if I could have figured out a way to get a) a lower rate loan and b) a lower tax rate, I would have. It could not be done. Eventually I sold the place and moved on.
used to work in palm springs, somebody had idea to use metal studs, was hard trying to replace windows and doors as usually owners didn't know about the metal studs.
guess laws are weird or maybe misapplied they never had a problem getting a loan. but there were other communities that had basically a mobile home installed on a concrete slab, not your typical mobile home, they were beautiful great neighborhood, those had to get a special loan we couldn't touch them, walls were only 3 inches thick. to me the only difference between one and the other was the thickness of the studs.
weird,
semp
Title: Re: The Martin Act
Post by: Traveler on March 03, 2022, 03:49:09 PM