General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: 8thJinx on March 27, 2022, 08:36:25 AM
Title: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: 8thJinx on March 27, 2022, 08:36:25 AM
Out of 120 battalion tactical groups deployed on Day 1, twenty have been completely annihilated. Not a single vehicle is left.
Russia is attempting to draw tank reserves from long-term storage depots, but is finding 9 out of 10 of the tanks are unusable due to cannibalization of parts like engines, drive wheels, and autoloaders, or outright theft of parts and circuit boards that contain precious metals. Upon learning this past week that his tank reserve was non-existent, the commander of Russia's 4th Guards Tank Division (whose depot is located in suburban Moscow), Colonel Yevgeny Nikolayevich Zhuravlyov, shot himself in the head. The 4th Tank Guards Division is part of the 1st Guards Tank Army, which has seen wild turnover at the top command slot in the last 3 weeks.
Nearly 1900 Russian combat vehicles of all types have been lost, representing close to 20% of the armor that crossed into Ukraine 4 weeks ago at the start of the war. 688 of those vehicles were captured intact by Ukraine, and are now part of the Ukrainian Army.
Morale in the lower ranks is plummeting. In the 37th Motorized Rifle Brigade, morale is so low that a tank driver ran over his commander with his tank. Reports say Colonel Yuri Medvedev lived for a short while and then died of injuries sustained from the attack. The mutinous attack was reportedly triggered by the frustration brewing within the ranks resulting from a recent battle where half of the brigade's vehicles and personnel were lost and left behind.
The Russian tradition of dedovshchina - the vicious hazing of conscripts by officers and non-comms - has resulted in morale so low among conscripts that they are being removed entirely from Ukraine in an attempt to stem the flow of desertions and abandonment of vehicles. (25% of Russia's Army is made up of conscripts.)
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: CptTrips on March 27, 2022, 08:49:00 AM
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: Robbler on March 27, 2022, 06:03:30 PM
I am curious if their nuclear deterrent is as shabby as their other equipment. Many of the wheeled vehicles blew out their tires because of a lack of maintenance.
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: zack1234 on March 28, 2022, 11:19:41 AM
You people are scary :)
The arrogance is astounding.
You think the Ukraine can defeat the Russians?
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: CptTrips on March 28, 2022, 12:59:43 PM
In the sense that Afghanistan "defeated" the Soviet Union.
Simply avoid capitulating and use the unlimited flow of weapons from the West to bleed Russia dry over time until their domestic political conditions become unstable and support for the operation becomes infeasible.
After that, we'll pour trillions into rebuilding Ukraine as a object lesson to the Russian people of how much better they would have it as a Western style democratic/market based society. Like we did for W. Germany after WWII. Also every single asset, private jet, yacht, vacation home, foreign deposit of Russia or it's oligarch's we can lay hands on gets confiscated and applied to that effort.
In a decade or so, we can begin to discuss whether sanctions on Russia should be eased.
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: decoy on March 28, 2022, 02:05:59 PM
After that, we'll pour trillions into rebuilding Ukraine as a object lesson to the Russian people of how much better they would have it as a Western style democratic/market based society. Like we did for W. Germany after WWII. Also every single asset, private jet, yacht, vacation home, foreign deposit of Russia or it's oligarch's we can lay hands on gets confiscated and applied to that effort.
In a decade or so, we can begin to discuss whether sanctions on Russia should be eased.
And Twenty years from now, Ukrainian made cars will be flooding our markets. The Afghans just never got on that program.
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: CptTrips on March 28, 2022, 03:50:40 PM
And Twenty years from now, Ukrainian made cars will be flooding our markets. The Afghans just never got on that program.
The Afghans are culture locked. They are the same as they were at the time of Alexander the Great. The only thing that has changed is the weapons used. No amount of money thrown at them will make a different until they change their own culture. Nothing we do will make a difference. They have to change organically. That will take a couple of hundred years more.
Ukraine is a European culture. Our system is not so foreign to them. There is a much better chance of assistance actually doing some good there. If we put the resources into it like we did West Germany, we would see similar results and it makes a great object lesson sitting on Russia's doorstep for it's citizens to stare at. It's not a military threat Putin is scared of. It's the juxtaposition of economic/political systems side by side. It's the threat of comparison he fears.
It's better to have countries as free, democratic, economic competitors.
When was the last time two functioning democracies (especially trading partners) went to war against each other? Not very often. Usually one or both have to be an authoritarian of some type. monarch, despot, junta, politburo, etc.
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: fd ski on March 28, 2022, 04:36:23 PM
"Make it so they just have to keep sending troops in, keep sending money, and troops, and money until they just go out of their f----g minds the way we did in Vietnam."
Gust Avrikados, Charlie Wilson's War
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: Eagler on March 28, 2022, 05:28:22 PM
Phase 1 whatever that was is over?
Phase 2?
Eagler
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: CptTrips on March 28, 2022, 06:24:37 PM
until they just go out of their f----g minds the way we did in Vietnam
Or the British in the American Revolution. If it were existential for the Brits they would have just kept sending armies until they won. We just made it expensive enough that any possible future economic benefit couldn't be worth the pain and cost.
Eventually it was opposition back home that always decides it's had enough.
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: Eagler on March 29, 2022, 06:59:16 AM
America and Afghanistan...will bleed us dry for decades as we deal with trillions pumped into our fake economy to cover its debts
Eagler
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: Robbler on March 29, 2022, 09:14:33 PM
Russians and Ukrainians are just like the rest of us. If you watch videos of folks over there, they want what we want. They just want a life and a job and family and love..just like us, but our leaders(?) pit us against one another and it makes me sick. We are all so similar but the folks up top want to divide us. One day the masses will wake up but I fear that you and I will be dust by that time. <S>
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: zack1234 on March 30, 2022, 02:23:42 AM
Robbler what are you babbling about?
Russia and Ukraine are meeting in Turkey for cease fire talks.
Apologies you people can put your pitch forks down for the next pleb drama
When are you going to get angry about Assad in Syria? September
You people think the American civil war was fought to free slaves.
You will be telling me Dinosaurs we’re real next.
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: CptTrips on March 30, 2022, 09:48:39 AM
The Afghans are culture locked. They are the same as they were at the time of Alexander the Great. The only thing that has changed is the weapons used. No amount of money thrown at them will make a different until they change their own culture. Nothing we do will make a difference. They have to change organically. That will take a couple of hundred years more.
Ukraine is a European culture. Our system is not so foreign to them. There is a much better chance of assistance actually doing some good there. If we put the resources into it like we did West Germany, we would see similar results and it makes a great object lesson sitting on Russia's doorstep for it's citizens to stare at. It's not a military threat Putin is scared of. It's the juxtaposition of economic/political systems side by side. It's the threat of comparison he fears.
It's better to have countries as free, democratic, economic competitors.
When was the last time two functioning democracies (especially trading partners) went to war against each other? Not very often. Usually one or both have to be an authoritarian of some type. monarch, despot, junta, politburo, etc.
The problem is that the US and "the west" has become authoritarian. The government has spite it's own people and does what it wants. Look at the lockdowns in "The West". They have used Ukraine as a proxy for their bio industry to skirt the regulations that Nato is bound by. Where's all of that American AID money I didnt vote to send going? They used the Ukrainian people as sheilds for their agenda. "You better stop my sons investigations or you aint getting the AID". Think about all of the countries the US has invaded in the last 60 years. (For the good of their people) they say. That is authoritarian in nature even if you think its the right thing to do. Assad recently warned about who the US has actually been working with.The problem is the US population writes everything off the Russian military, Putin, and Assad has said as propaganda and doesn't want to listen. How can we come to any agreement with Russia if we don't take their side seriously in what they say? Why should Russia trust us after we blamed an entire US election on them? Nah, we will just blow up a theater with children in it and blame it on the Russians so we can make them look like the evil ones. Who cares if the Russian military said they didn't attack it. No one will believe them.
I do believe there is far more going on over there than any MSM wants to admit. They want Russia as a NWO country and using Ukraine and its people as a proxy to build up arms and force Russias hand so it gives the west an excuse to take him out. Notice how no military really wants to go over there and fight.
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: turt21 on March 30, 2022, 12:39:17 PM
Out of 120 battalion tactical groups deployed on Day 1, twenty have been completely annihilated. Not a single vehicle is left.
I have to question your sources unless you know of someone imbedded with the russians.
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: Eagler on March 30, 2022, 04:19:22 PM
Depends on which side needs the war to continue the most and what ends they will take to accomplish that goal...
I don't believe either side 100%
False flag events from either side are possible - we would never know the truth of such event if they don't want us to know
The problem with a bias corrupt media and their buddies our "leaders"
Eagler
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: MiloMorai on March 30, 2022, 04:30:52 PM
The Afghans are culture locked. They are the same as they were at the time of Alexander the Great. The only thing that has changed is the weapons used. No amount of money thrown at them will make a different until they change their own culture. Nothing we do will make a difference. They have to change organically. That will take a couple of hundred years more.
Ukraine is a European culture. Our system is not so foreign to them. There is a much better chance of assistance actually doing some good there. If we put the resources into it like we did West Germany, we would see similar results and it makes a great object lesson sitting on Russia's doorstep for it's citizens to stare at. It's not a military threat Putin is scared of. It's the juxtaposition of economic/political systems side by side. It's the threat of comparison he fears.
It's better to have countries as free, democratic, economic competitors.
When was the last time two functioning democracies (especially trading partners) went to war against each other? Not very often. Usually one or both have to be an authoritarian of some type. monarch, despot, junta, politburo, etc.
Very good points and well stated. During the 80s conflict in Afghanistan, several senators toured the country on a 'fact finding mission.' On their return, the one from Texas, I can't remember who, was interviewed by the great writer Molly Ivins. When asked about the state of the Afghan military, the senator said, "Them c*cksuckers don't understand anything but bombs and bullets." I have several friends who have done at least one tour in the Middle East since the latest fracas began. They all say that senator hit the nail on the head.
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: decoy on March 30, 2022, 04:54:23 PM
The problem is that the US and "the west" has become authoritarian. The government has spite it's own people and does what it wants. Look at the lockdowns in "The West". They have used Ukraine as a proxy for their bio industry to skirt the regulations that Nato is bound by. Where's all of that American AID money I didnt vote to send going? They used the Ukrainian people as sheilds for their agenda. "You better stop my sons investigations or you aint getting the AID". Think about all of the countries the US has invaded in the last 60 years. (For the good of their people) they say. That is authoritarian in nature even if you think its the right thing to do. Assad recently warned about who the US has actually been working with.The problem is the US population writes everything off the Russian military, Putin, and Assad has said as propaganda and doesn't want to listen. How can we come to any agreement with Russia if we don't take their side seriously in what they say? Why should Russia trust us after we blamed an entire US election on them? Nah, we will just blow up a theater with children in it and blame it on the Russians so we can make them look like the evil ones. Who cares if the Russian military said they didn't attack it. No one will believe them.
I do believe there is far more going on over there than any MSM wants to admit. They want Russia as a NWO country and using Ukraine and its people as a proxy to build up arms and force Russias hand so it gives the west an excuse to take him out. Notice how no military really wants to go over there and fight.
In the eastern hemisphere, most American 'foreign aid' is in the form of military hardware or personnel. The exceptions are Israel and Egypt. We pay them equal amounts in cash to not attack one another.
In the west, most foreign aid is in the form of money (as well as military hardware and personnel) to engage in drug interdiction. My wife's nephew last assignment before retiring from the U.S. Army, was in South America, making sure the various governments were spending the money we gave them the way they said they would. Before that, he was in Central America, following the narcos around while they kicked in the doors of farmhouses. Torre said they never went after the big operators because they liked their wives and children alive.
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: RotBaron on March 30, 2022, 07:14:34 PM
In the eastern hemisphere, most American 'foreign aid' is in the form of military hardware or personnel. The exceptions are Israel and Egypt. We pay them equal amounts in cash to not attack one another.
In the west, most foreign aid is in the form of money (as well as military hardware and personnel) to engage in drug interdiction. My wife's nephew last assignment before retiring from the U.S. Army, was in South America, making sure the various governments were spending the money we gave them the way they said they would. Before that, he was in Central America, following the narcos around while they kicked in the doors of farmhouses. Torre said they never went after the big operators because they liked their wives and children alive.
A really great friend of mine I grew up with as a kid got his doors kicked in, and his dad was tackled on his own lawn. For selling pain pills. He was 17. I told him to stop when he had 5k in his room, but he couldnt, the addiction. He spent 3 years in prison. Where they tattooed "baptized in dirty water" across his chest. He left prison a gang member where he then got caught for driving meth and herion as a drug mule 2 years later and is now serving 5-7. Forgot to turn the blinker on.
You know. I'm real lucky I didn't end up in Prison.
I respect the law and support those brave men you speak of. But they aren't taking out "the real problem". Because even you admit they are scared of their families. That's a problem. That is not ending the threat. Kids shouldn't have access to meth and herion.
Our military shouldn't be scared.
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: Eagler on March 31, 2022, 06:42:53 AM
I haven't seen Putin battle plan...pretty sure not many have
It might be going exactly as he wants it to be
I don't think he is losing anything, he just hasn't "won" yet ..whatever that truly turns out to be
Eagler
It's not hard to look at what actions were taken when and draw the conclusion that Putin tried one course of action and it failed, then another and failed again and is now trying a third. If someone was following a viable plan all along they would not change directions after failing badly. The "it was his plan all along" narrative has been the recent push from Russian propaganda outlets and does not make sense when comparing those words to actual actions.
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: zack1234 on March 31, 2022, 07:08:02 AM
Afghanistan biggest lithium reserves in the world and Chinese have moved in to mine it, have a guess who’s presidents son owns 10% of said company :rofl
Who is pushing green battery power in the US :rofl
This is why they need to control the internet :rofl
You people :rofl
That will be in September
You people cannot correlate why you are told to hate Syria,Iran,Iraq and Libya :rofl
You have no concept of Nation States have you and the ramifications to the West :rofl
Tall man bad Orange man bad Russian man bad Fat man bad
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: decoy on March 31, 2022, 07:33:00 AM
I may not have been clear on that point. Torre said it was the 'native' narcos who were afraid to tackle the big cartels, not the US Military. This all happened in Guatemala, Costa Rica, Belize, and El Salvador. I don't remember him mentioning Panama or Mexico. We don't send aid to Mexico, they just come here to get it.
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: Eagler on March 31, 2022, 07:51:50 AM
Just saying you can lose and still win
I have no clue why he invaded so I would not guess if it's going as planned or not..
Some think it's all just a huge front at the expense of the Ukrainians
Many things can and are blamed on war ...see our lying bias media for current examples
Eagler
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: rabbidrabbit on March 31, 2022, 08:17:35 AM
I have no clue why he invaded so I would not guess if it's going as planned or not..
Some think it's all just a huge front at the expense of the Ukrainians
Many things can and are blamed on war ...see our lying bias media for current examples
Eagler
I don't think you and I differ in our views about MSM etc. All I'm saying is to be careful as propaganda comes from all directions and it's easy to lose perspective.
I don't see how Putin can "win" unless UA capitulates and unless something dramatic happens I doubt it's going to happen soon. Most likely, Putin's incredibly incompetent military will refocus on the Donbass regions and slog it out from there. Putins' best case scenario is a very costly prevailing and it seems that his prospects will continue to degrade with time.
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: Eagler on March 31, 2022, 08:39:30 AM
My guess is the ruble will be stronger in the end than it was before the war..
As long as Germany and others rely on putin for their power nothing will be done about Russia
And yes propaganda is everywhere and is no stronger than our own news networks sadly
Eagler
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: rabbidrabbit on March 31, 2022, 09:02:57 AM
Perhaps. As of right now, Putin demanded that they all pay in Rubles but was told no and he relented. His actions towards all of European customers really burned bridges and while they are both stuck with each other on the short term pretty much all of them are doing everything they can to not be reliant on Putin for energy in the long run so I don't think that will help the demand for Rubles.
"And yes propaganda is everywhere and is no stronger than our own news networks sadly"
Agreed. It makes it all the more important to use your own head and filter through the noise.
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: Shuffler on March 31, 2022, 09:07:23 AM
We should stop sending aid to anyone until our own house is in order.
Title: Re: The Butcher's Bill, One Month In
Post by: Eagler on March 31, 2022, 09:19:56 AM