Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: gatt on May 23, 2000, 04:13:00 PM
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Was giving a look at AGW and red some threads about people pissed off by the loss of EZ mode in MA. WB's MA was full of FW's flying like Sissyfires, B&Zing all the time without worrying of FM limitations.
If I had an EZ mode here I'd close my account.
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Yah... What the hell is THAT all about? I can't believe they let FR and RR planes loose in the *same* bloody arena. My god.
It's also suprising to note that some 60% or more of the planes buzzin' around in the WB MA are in 'EZ' mode. <shudder>
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Foolishness! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
That was one of the first questions I ever asked Pyro was if they planned an "easy flight mode". Thankfully he said no at the time.
I think their auto take off is an excellent way to deal with that.
Hey Nash, I took my stick apart. Had a heck of a time! Did not realize there was a screw under each "glued" rubber foot pad. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif) Hope cleaning those pots helps. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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daddog
332nd Flying Mongrels (http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm)
Snapshots (http://www.ropescourse.org/snapshot.htm)
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cdaddog.jpg)
You Know You're In Trouble When ...
Your accountants letter of resignation is postmarked
Zurich.
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Lol daddog. I'm too embarrased to admit how long it took me to figure out where those damned screws were (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm almost 100% sure it's gonna help. Lemme know how it works out.
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uh, EZ take off isn't EZ mode?
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You mean different people in the same arena using different flight models?
Egads, thats blasphemy.
Full realism all the way!!!
Sisu
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Exactly, Liz. Once you break ground you are flying the plane in the same flight model as everyone else.
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Gadfly: No..that's get a beer mode. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Good point Kieren, and that is why I fly Bombers Ozark.
Lizking
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Take a look at these threads:
http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw/Forum3/HTML/012335.html (http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw/Forum3/HTML/012335.html)
http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw/Forum3/HTML/012338.html (http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw/Forum3/HTML/012338.html)
I wonder how those Ez-mode guys can be able to ask for playing in MA ....
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There's guys that still think AH is the "watered down" version of WB .. oh well ..
EZ-Mode .. No thanks ...
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The funniest part is that they are arguing over the difference between one FM that is a little easier to fly than AH and another FM that is MUCH easier to fly than AH.
They are both watered-down FM's, it's just a matter of how much water you want in the scotch...
Not saying AH is the Holy Grail, either. I've never flown a WW2 fighter, what do I know.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-24-2000).]
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Taking away EZ in the main arena was the best decision Ien has made so far imho.
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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Taking *away* EZ in the MA? I'm shocked they even put it *in*. Appearently they kinda switch back and forth at random, not tellin' anyone what's going on.
It's kinda ironic, really. Claimin' that the WB flight model is 'all that' while only 30-40% of the people yer gonna run into are actually flying inna plane with realistic characteristics. Go figure.
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I never could tell that much difference between EZ and FR. Just a couple more buttons to push. I had no trouble switching to FR there or here.
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Guess that bears the question... What exactly *is* EZ mode in WB?
---edit----
Had a closer look at the discussions. Here are a few snips:
"What it does provide is autotrim, continously, without thought and management, through 85% of the flight envelope. That's brilliant E management, for free."
"In EZ mode, with full power you can stand your plane on its nose at less than stall speed and continue to blast away for several seconds"
"It gives you the ability to pull stupid stunts near continously and with minimal E penalty as guns defense, with no requirement for staying co-ordinated."
.... and on. To clarify here - I aint takin' shots at WB, the sim, per say. It just strikes me as a real sketchy move by IEN.
[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 05-24-2000).]
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Nash, WB Easymode does two things:
1. Eliminates trim forces. Basically the plane is constantly auto-trimming itself for you. Kind of like what a modern fighter does.
2. Limits angle of attack. If you try to pull it beyond a certain angle of attack it won't respond. Again, this is like what the F-16 flight control system does - the computer won't let you cause an accelerated stall or overstress the plane.
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Ah... That's the clearest explanation of it I've read. Thanks Funked.
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WOW Fly-by-wire Spitfires ... yea i can see why it was popular (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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I don't know if EZ mode changed since I left, but when I subscribed to WB one big bad effect of EZ mode was that it was automatically set to delay stick response. I can only think that this was done to compensate for a newbie maniacally yanking on his stick, but it felt like you were flying something with the responsiveness of a B-17.
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Duckwing, actually the ubiquitous easy-mode plane was the 190.
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Seems to me that Easy Mode isn't something new to Warbirds.... I wonder who was managing things back then. Hmmmm... well, at least it'll never happen here.
PS - How many months of flying AH does it take before I too can be a self-righteous snob? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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You See Snakeyes, before you too can become an AH snob (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) You actually have to open an account and fly in a post beta version.
Of course there is then the secret initiation, that involves 4 Sheep, an orange, 10 ft of barb wire, 1 can of crisco, 2.5 rolls of standard duct tape, a spatula, and a number two pencil. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Turn off EZmode Takeoff, I bet you will hear the same nonsense here.
Lizking
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PS - How many months of flying AH does it take before I too can be a self-righteous snob?
Good one SnakeEyes! ;=)
danish
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Turn off EZmode Takeoff, I bet you will hear the same nonsense here
Ehehe, for newbies the problem is not taking off but landing in one piece and walk away after a real dogfight without driving an UFO (and fly-by-wire) FW190A-4 ... Anyway, we have red anything here .. so feel free to post jokes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Heh, I don't have a prollem with guys takin' off in easy mode. This mode perty much ends once the wheels have left the ground. It's a bit different though when guys in EZ mode are now up and tryin' to shoot ya down... This I find rediculous.
And it's not about bein' a self-righteous snob SnakeEyes. I aint got an issue with guys going to a dedicated EZ mode arena to fight... But when both modes co-exist in the MA, it effectively wipes out any level playing field. It's not really a defensible position to take imho.
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Not trying to be a snob at all... but this is an ooooolllddd AGW/WB argument. When EZ mode was introduced into the MA, many objected. I remember being one that said EZ-mode made it easier to get kills- many chose to dismiss that point. I wonder now how many would say that? No doubt about it, EZ enables a steadier gun hand over a wider speed range, and that is decisive in BnZ attacks.
Please, never mix EZ and FR here... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Originally posted by SnakeEyes:
PS - How many months of flying AH does it take before I too can be a self-righteous snob? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hehe, must have been a sucky connect night to WB (again) so old snake eyes got out the fishin pole.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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"PS - How many months of flying AH does it take before I too can be a self-righteous snob? "
Apparently, none - based on the AGW EZ Mode bashers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-25-2000).]
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Actually I was commenting on the whole AH/WB whose-FM-is-harder implications unleashed back there.
PS - I have a post beta account btw. At least for another week or so. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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WB also has no dive speed or structural limits in the MA
(gag hack cough blech ugh ) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Ahhh.. but have you been initiated yet? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Now, whats your home address? muahahhahaahah
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Citabra-You must have been flying in EZmode in the main in WBs.
Explain these issues, and how they do not apply, while the WB EZmode does, and not only will I quit posting(again), but I will delete AH and this board from my system.
1) EZmode takeoff
2) EZmode Radar
3) EZmode "six" view
4) EZmode "Zoom" feature
5) EZmode roboto bomber gunnery system
6) EZmode gunnery(That is my opinion, no need to answer that one, really)
Just so you will know, I don't have a problem with any of these, just like I don't have a problem with EZmode in the Warbirds main, but I do have a problem with self-rightous nonsense.
Lizking
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Citabria said:
"WB also has no dive speed or structural limits in the MA"
Yes, its definetely the same Citabria we all have the pleasure of reading regularly on AGW!
Cheers
figaro
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SnakeEyes, I didn't mean you, I meant all the guys that were blasting the EZmode pilots on AGW.
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nah.
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Hey Snake eyes, Gadfly and Figaro, rather than posting in a flight sim BB that you don't even fly, while driving that wedge even deeper between the flights sim communities (keep in mind we'll all be in WW2), why don't you just leave?
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No Rip,
let them stay and post some funny jokes about EZ-modes here. Keep on posting Gadfly and Snake! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) We want to laugh!
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We don't know what we're going to do in terms of an "easy mode". We will be doing more in that area, we're throwing money away if we don't. These types of games don't survive on old-timers alone. You need a constant supply of fresh bodies coming in to keep things going. Some people talk about this like it's a bad thing when it certainly isn't. A bad thing is not getting enough players into the game. Just because you or I took our lumps and persevered through difficult learning curves doesn't mean the average player can or will.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
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Pyro;
I started a post along those very same ideas, but deleted it after about 3 lines of text.
I had decided that I would need a better "Fire Suit". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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In ref. to Pyro's statement:
That my friends, is spoken from a "business" point of view.
As a former business owner, I made decisions to benefit my company. If I lost 5 old customers but gained 15 new cutomers due to that decision, then so be it. My loyalty was to my company, not a select few customers who would drop you in a heart beat once they found something they perceived as better for the dollar. If ya don't think they will, start a business and find out for yourself.
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Apache
The Blue Knights
[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 05-26-2000).]
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I thought spitfires were easy mode? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
seriously though, keep a dedicated easy mode flight model in a separate arena.
it can and will be exploited if its mixed together with the accurate flight models.
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 05-26-2000).]
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Ripsnort... how can I put this most politely....
Um... first, blow me. I don't think you've seen any posts around here from me slamming AH. Maybe a snide smile or two, but whether someone plays or not is immaterial. Anyone can fly the aircraft offline and make up their mind about the flight model. And, secondly, open your [expletive] eyes and read... you'll notice that your characterization is incorrect.
In any case, now that the AH flight model is more complete, I haven't commented on whether I think it is better/worse/whatever vis-a-vis WB or anything else. Sorry, but I don't know enough on the subject to comment on that. My point is that the asinine holier-than-thou comments on either side are what drives a wedge between the communities... and you seem to clearly be on the wrong side of that discussion.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 05-26-2000).]
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Oooooooooooh! I was going to post a point relating to my experience with the difference between sims and real world flying e.g. when I was a very active commercial pilot and CFI I would have thought quite a bit before going from my fancy retractable variable pitch prop complex airplanes to even the tamest WWII fighter. Why cause these airplanes were so powerful and tricky that without some good training even a guy with my experience at that time would have been so far behind the curve that I would have run a risk of getting killed on takeoff. AH is a great sim guys and it provides fantasy and escape but don't for one minute think that there's anything "real" in the sim world definition of real. Now, relating to the "business decision" possibility thinking of Pyro as expressed below. Please tell us that those of us who want full real (whatever that is) will always have it and that you're not going to mix up flight models in the same arena.
Thanks
Beeg
Originally posted by Pyro:
We don't know what we're going to do in terms of an "easy mode". We will be doing more in that area, we're throwing money away if we don't. These types of games don't survive on old-timers alone. You need a constant supply of fresh bodies coming in to keep things going. Some people talk about this like it's a bad thing when it certainly isn't. A bad thing is not getting enough players into the game. Just because you or I took our lumps and persevered through difficult learning curves doesn't mean the average player can or will.
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(http://www.user.shentel.net/vonz/bee.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Beegerite (edited 05-26-2000).]
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Please just dont mix them. Its like playing chess and checkers on the same board at the same time. Both games are valid, and you can excell at either. But you shouldnt be playing them both at the same time.
BTW . the spit AND the p51 are ezmode planes.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 05-26-2000).]
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BTW, I am not an advocate of ez mode in a mixed arena. I flew ez mode when I first started WB for about a month, then switched to non-ez mode and was glad I did & never looked back. I was simply pointing out the fact that HTC would have to incorporate an ez mode to increase client base.
Guys, (& Gals?), WB & AH are difficult games to learn. Remember how it was? Was for me anyway, 'cept my brother Comanche (The jerk (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)).
Anywho, wanted to clarify that.
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Apache
The Blue Knights
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I have to disagree with you ,Apache.
First time Icame into AH I had no idea on even how to take off. I was a complete newbie I didnt know anything.
That was in January. Now I suck but at least I can do some nice fights sometimes...in a 190 it is tricky, believe me.
As I said in AGW board, if HTC wants to throw me outta the game they only need to put EZ mode in it. I wont fly in EZ because I think it is sissy. But If I have to fly against Fly-by-wire, Autotrimming, Helicopter-like-hanging-on-prop Spitfires, 109s or Hawgs in my fw190, I guarantee you that I wont wait nor whine. I'd delete my account at once.
Pyro, HTC, let it as it is. Who said flying is easy?. So far I love the realism in this game. If ANY kind of EZ that brings advantages over other people comes into AH I am done. Sorry to say it but I will go.
I dont mind Autotakeoff. IT doesnt kill me. I DO mind about ANY EZ flying advantages on other people. THey CAN kill me.
My 0.02$ here
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Well my friend, the operative word seems to be "former business owner". I hope that implies retirement. I'm a present business owner and I suspect I will be a long time business owner because I temper my desire for success with consideration for the views of those customers that supported me when I didn't have two nickels to rub together. I also have those potato customers who will jump for a nickel (I'm in the transport business which is totally deregulated) but gratefully they are few and far between primarily cause we don't price ourselves cheap but give our customers service above and beyond.
One thing I really liked when I first came to AH was the involvement of the management and what I perceived as a true desire to be involved with their customers. I'm not saying this has changed but one thing that really disturbs me is Pyro's "we don't know". One thing I've learned in 35 years in business is that the first thing to do is test the waters when a change is planned. Since I've not seen him say this before I take it as a request for input so here's mine.
Go right ahead and offer relaxed arenas for those that want them but keep them totally separate. And, while you're considering changing your business model to meet the demands of the masses, perhaps you may consider $9.95/month like my old sim that didn't give a squat about their customers' wishes and jammed so many in a room that the play was atrocious. Now! that would be a great combination! Low pricing AND the quality of AH. Somewhere there is a formula to determine just how many customers are needed to provide both but that formula has to keep the welfare of the present customers in mind. One last thing I might pass on, in our old sim we had a squad of 24 and only 3 came to AH. The rest are still there squeaking, moaning, screaming and cussing but religiously paying their $9.95 per month like sheep going to slaughter. I suspect there is a relationship between low pricing and being able to take anything the management dishes out. On the other half there is the other group willing to pay 3 times as much for quality. Please keep the quality there and don't go corporate on us.
Thanks
Beeg
Originally posted by Apache:
In ref. to Pyro's statement:
That my friends, is spoken from a "business" point of view.
As a former business owner, I made decisions to benefit my company. If I lost 5 old customers but gained 15 new cutomers due to that decision, then so be it. My loyalty was to my company, not a select few customers who would drop you in a heart beat once they found something they perceived as better for the dollar. If ya don't think they will, start a business and find out for yourself.
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(http://www.user.shentel.net/vonz/bee.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Beegerite (edited 05-26-2000).]
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Nope, it implies selling the business and resting on my laurels. I resent your implication, "my friend".
[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 05-26-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 05-26-2000).]
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Ripsnort:
Nope,
I will not leave.
Most of the discussions are interesting, the sim looks great, and a lot of the names are old friends and masters. I also hope there will be a mac version soon. Maybe I will read it here first.
Now and then, somebody says something that is just untrue, and I point it out, like in citabria«s post.
At other times, somebody posts something really rude, childish, and unnecessarily offensive. Then I just feel a bit sorry for an otherwise fine community, knowing that it also includes people like yourself (they are all over I guess).
And if you are looking for dividers of communities, the two of you need not look far at all.
By the way, the lack of Ez mode in this sim seems to me a very, very good thing.
Cheers (to the adults)
figaro
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Well we do have EZ-mode here it's called $30 a month that's EZ fer me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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last time I played in WB MA the structural limits were disabled.
and they were.
when did they change that?
I know they still have the...
"Wallet Drain-O-MinuteMatic" over there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 05-26-2000).]
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I don't mind having an EZ mode, as long as there is an EZ arena and a regular FR arena. As long as they don't mix the two I'm happy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Actually I think that an EZ mode would be a good way to teach newbies the game. Maybe in the TA or HTH you could select EZ or FR. In the MA however, FR only is my opinion.
I wonder why a company would ever mix the two in the main arena? No matter what you will have FR people unhappy that other's planes can do things they cannot. Eventually you would see people leaving, while others also switched to EZ to remain competitive.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Hey Rip, I will give a hearty, "Blow ME" to add to Snakeeyes. I been flying this game since day one of the beta all the way through May 15 when I cancelled my paying account. Note also that I didn't drop the account because I don't like the game; I just don't have time to fly both AH and WB and have a life at the same time.
What I notice is the roar of the silence in answer to my query about the AH "EZMODE" features, except for Pyro, who not only doesn't deny them, but admits that there will probably BE an EZ mode in AH(As well there should).
I will repeat it for you since I know you are a lil' slow:
I have nothing against any of the existing EZmode features of AH, and in fact don't give a ratz bellybutton if they fly EZ mode in the Main in WB.
As my Daddy always told me, "Worry about YOUR deal, not what the other guy does".
Lizking
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Pyro is exactly right that there is a place for an EZ mode, and that it is a significant tool in broadening game appeal.
Having said that, I think it's important that any EZ mode designed not confer any advantages in any significant areas of flight (except takeoff and landing, we most people seem to accept) or combat. Moreover, I'd argue that the effects of EZ mode be fully disclosed to the players, and that it be subject to a thorough playtesting review by a cross section of players.
The biggest problem with the WB EZ mode is that:
a) The portions of the flight models that were simplified were only known generally (broad statements) rather than specifically, allowing players to only guess at what was truly different and its impact.
b) Whenever people questioned if it conferred advantages, they were brushed-off with flat denials by development that these changes did not affect combat (because they knew the reaction to the truth).
c) That the alterations actually did confer advantages in certain situations... but that those situations were both noticeable and important in terms of air combat.
IMO, as long as a reasonable amount of work is done to ensure that EZ mode does not provide any significant advantages, and as long as players are knowledgeable about those simplifications and development obtains the buy-in of the community through interaction, EZ mode in the main arena can work.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 05-26-2000).]
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"shall we play a game?"
yes, lets play chesskers.
1 player plays using the rules for checkers while the other one plays using the rules for chess.
this is also called cheating back in the real world.
separate arena for ez mode? great more power to ya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) go newbies!
mix it up and everyone walks away disgruntled. the newbies and ez mode users either get a huge advantage from no trim or torque or have such a limited Angle of attack that they cant even maneuver. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I just dont care to see 190s flick rolling into infinity 5 feet off the deck with no fear of loosing control while I fight with a realistic flight model... after all isn't the reason box games suck so bad is because the AI plays by different rules? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
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"IMO, as long as a reasonable amount of work is done to ensure that EZ mode does not provide any significant advantages, and as long as players are knowledgeable about those simplifications and development obtains the buy-in of the community through interaction, EZ mode in the main arena can work."
Put like this, I guess I wouldn't have a problem with it. The question is... Is it possible to give a plane EZ mode characteristics while not giving this plane any advantage?
Oh... and if this ever were to happen here, kill messages should read:
"Victory by <handle> IN EASY MODE" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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IF THEY WANT THE EZ MODE GO FLY FIGHTER ACE ON THE ZONE...THIS IS THE BOMB HERE. CLOSEST TO THE REAL THING. WISH MY PIPER TRI PACER FLEW LIKE THIS. BUT ILLEGAL TO PUT GUNS ON IT...RATS!!
UNC...OUT!!!
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The Musketeers are a "full real" combat flight sim squad. We don't mind if you have e-z model to attract new customers, just don't try to combined them in one arena. We the Musketeers love AH and what Pyro and HiTech have created with their time and money. Thanks. I have seen some of the best cyber flyers and it's a joy to be a part of it. E-z model flight sim is more like quake that looks like a combat flight sim. Most of the people I see in the main arena are hardcore flight sim people, which know how to push buttons and create the image in their minds of a real WWII combat airplane of another era. The "full real" of this image is what we like. New people don't know what to do,so we teach our newbies how to teach themselves....which is to practice. The more they practice the better they become and the thirst for a more real physics is wanted. We love the era of WWII prop combat airplanes, and want the "full real" effects of those airplanes. Please don't mess this up. Thanks again.
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(http://www.user.shentel.net/vonz/thorns.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Thorns (edited 05-26-2000).]
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Originally posted by Gadfly:
What I notice is the roar of the silence in answer to my query about the AH "EZMODE" features, except for Pyro, who not only doesn't deny them, but admits that there will probably BE an EZ mode in AH(As well there should).
Lizking
Lizking that is nothing near true. Or do you forget about my answers on AGW board? was that a silence?.
Of course I was dismissed from there with a "DONT SPAM THIS BOARD WITH YOUR OPINIONS", gently written by MG, alias "MACBOY" (the one who most spams in this world). I felt so insulted that I wont ever return there to say a word, as it seems that I'm not welcome.
returning to what concerns us...do you want me to bring up the thread here and paste my posts from AGW board? I answered you about all your "EZ" worries. And it was being a nice discussion until "someone" dumped it.
Please dont say we dont answer to your questions. I didnt remain silent. we may disagree but I dont hide my head, bud.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-26-2000).]
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man here I was hoping the old hands were getting more harder stuff like no Icon SEA and stuff like that but the almighty dollar must come first. the masses must be pleased and ez mode is the choice of the masses.
the current flight model isn't even hard to fly. which is realistic... no airplane is hard to fly. some are hard to takeoff, some are hard to land. HTC already solved the takeoff problems, and if you cant takeoff on your own you wont be doing much landing anyways so landing is no problem, since you can ditch onto the pillow of jello called the rolling terrain.
dang, I done got long winded again.
flame away (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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HEre you have it,...directly from AGW board. I think these posts werent a silence.
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FROM AGW BOARD
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BTW the easy takeoff its quite like an autopilot. The stupid one that turns it on and still thinks he can fly has some serious mental problems. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Anyway is a harmless measure to help newbies to take off. I' by myself came into AH first time in January. I had no previous experience on online simulators, and I didnt ever knew to take off.
That nearly persuaded me to never get into it. But a friend of mine told me how to take off, more or less ,and so I kept trying it until I did it fairly well.
I guess that for every one like me there are 3 or 4 that when testing it offline they get so scared as I did, and as noone tells them to try and how to try it, they simply quit it and forguet it.
So I find an autotake off way wiser than a full-envelope-Easy mode. At least you dont fly a Fly-by-wire-autotrimming plane.
Hope you get my point (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
+---------------------------------
What about all those other EZmode type "helps" in AH. Do you use full engine management? Well, if I did and you didn't, wouldn't you be in EZmode?
I dont keel offended at all. I dont even feel included in that. you know why?. I fly Fw190A8, mainly. 90% my flying time, I can say. And Fw190A8 had a little funny thing called "kommandogėrat" that did all engine management for the pilot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And anyway in AH you have RPM control. None that I know in WB.
I input here my opinions on why EZ mode is lame, and why I find Autotakeoff on AH,if not needed, at least less lame. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Lizking:
EZ Radar?
In WWII there was some nice thing called Radar, and another wonderful thing called "ground control". The "ground control" used to "vector" the aircraft in the air towards the bad guys, using "Radar".
So I regard the inflight radar as ground control vectors to near threats. Maybe a bit overmodelled (radar counters 5 sectors away from your nearest field)...but is not that EZ from that point of view isnt it?.In fact I think that if they tune radar a bit down it will be REALISTIC!. Damno if they even make low cons disappear from radar! (500 feet or so).
It also adds some strategical mind into the game. If you down the enemy's HQ you blind them for a while so you can attack unsuspecting fields.EZ? no, realistic IMHO. and Fun,too.
EZ 6 View?
In a WWII plane you could move and jink yourself into the cockpit. I had the luck to be into a Buchon's (Spanish Merlin-engined Me109)Cockpit some years ago when I was only a kid, 14 years old. It was an engineless plane but it was otherwise intact. They let me sit down into the cockpit, with all the stuff put on me (I mean atachments and so). I promise you that the view, even with those nasty bulges on the front of the plane, was quite good. It was a cramped cockpit, fer sure, but the rear view was quite good. Sure it seems much more as the view I use in AH than I see in Wb. And that in Me109, regarded as one of the worst planes regardign vision from cockpit...so I only can imagine the wonderful view available from bubble canopies and Malcom hoods!! (and Galland hood seemed to me that was quite an improvement,too).
EZ Zoom?
As far as I know, zoom was enabled on AH to make some far vision possible, as today's monitors (at least mine <G> ) have way less resolution than MarkI eyesight. I dont use it too much, and I doubt anyone does it, as the peripheral vision lost isnt worth the zoom view. So it fact that "EZ" is more a disadvantage than an advantage. At least IMHO.
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Originally posted by Lizking:
The fact that you have to justify those items speaks for it self.
No worries, Ram.
Umm...well I give my personal view about those features that you previously mentioned. I'm not justifying them.In fact,as you see I keep being critic on some of those features (I.E. I find the radar quite more accurate than it should be and zoom is useless IMHO). I dont justify them because, forgetting the zoom, wich ,I repeat,I find of no use at all, I think that on-flight radar is realistic on its own way, and that the views system is quite adequate and realistic, too.
Of course that is only my opinion. It is clear that you have your own one and I fully respect it.You like more Wb and I find AH better. Well thats why you fly Wb and I Fly AH, isnt it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Thats more or less all...Did I remain silent?. No. At least I believe I dindt.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-26-2000).]
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And here you have MG's (alias MACBOY) nice and wonderful post regarding my opinions:
Originally posted by MG:
Ram
In your browser read the header title. Read all the way through to the end.
Get it.
Don't spam this board.
MG
nice isnt it?
...macboy calling me spammer...have eyes for this...
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Actually, RAM, I was just keeping them seperate because they are, um, seperate boards.
The answers you gave didn't explain the dichotomy between ragging on WB's for having an admitted EZMode and ignoring the EZMode aspect's of AH.
That was, and still is my point. The self-rightous posts on this thread, and the similar ones on AGW, make no sense in light of this.
It isn't personal, and it isn't anti-anything except pomposity.
<edit> Oops, forgot:
Lizking
[This message has been edited by Gadfly (edited 05-26-2000).]
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Originally posted by Gadfly:
Actually, RAM, I was just keeping them seperate because they are, um, seperate boards.
You stated that people remained silent regarding your EZ questions. I did in AGW board, and I didnt here too because if we are discussing it in one board why carry it over to 2 boards at a time?.
Anyway, there wasn't such silence, as it can be clearly seen-
The answers you gave didn't explain the dichotomy between ragging on WB's for having an admitted EZMode and ignoring the EZMode aspect's of AH.
I must disagree here.Apart from the fact that some of your stated EZmodes in AH arent such from my point of view, If you dont see the difference between having inflight radar and a Fly-by-wire autotrimming plane then I dont understand why. AH helps the pilot's SA...WB helps pilot's FLYING. wether you agree with me or not in my states about AH's "EZ"s, I think you should be able to see the difference between both things.
It isn't personal, and it isn't anti-anything except pomposity.
Never took as personal, Lizking (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). as I said before we were having a nice and constructive discussion until "someone" made me think I could be doing something better than posting in that board (I.E. Going to see worm races,or the clouds pass by). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
But you can understand that I couldn't let you say here that noone answered your questions. I did it, not here, but I did it anyway.
And regarding pomposity...well there is a lot of that in AGW board too, bud...but that is to be said in another thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-26-2000).]
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Ok, RAM, explain to this poor old country boy how it is okay for someone to post on the AGW and Here that they "hope they don't get an EZmode here" or this:
LOL!
EASY MODE?!
ROFLOL!
Heh you dont have enuff with Sissyfires you need,too Sissy FM!
ROFLMAO...
Oh man...I cant stop laughing, at all...
60% Wb was flying in UFOs! LOL!
hehehehe well...time for my pills
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RAM,out
JG2 "Richthofen"
and at the same time dismiss the EZmode features of AH!
Well, sir, I say that right now, 100% of AH players are flying in EZmode!
EZtakeoff, EZradar, etc, look up the thread for the partial list.
As for saying that EZmode SA enhancements are not as important as flight control enhancements, I would suggest you read some history and find out what percentage of WWII pilots were killed because of their poor SA(or their enemies superior SA). Lot more "jumped" kills than "ACM" kills, I promise you.
<edit> Oops! forgot again:
Lizking
[This message has been edited by Gadfly (edited 05-26-2000).]
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Lizking that was a clear tongue-in-cheek post...ANYTHING That has "time for my pills (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) "in it is a clear joke. I thought that was clear from the start as noone said a word about that.
And look two posts down and you'll see another post from me. Which do you take as the serious one?. Come on...
As for saying that EZmode SA enhancements are not as important as flight control enhancements, I would suggest you read some history and find out what percentage of WWII pilots were killed because of their poor SA(or their enemies superior SA). Lot more "jumped" kills than "ACM" kills, I promise you.
Agree and disagree. I agree that SA is easier with inflight radar...and bouncing kills harder than in Wb because it, at least if you arent checking 6 continuously (thing I keep on doing with or without radar). But I have to disagree with you in the grounds of my "EZradar" statements posted up. Radar guided Ground control in WWII was a reality, and so I find the inflight radar needed. A bit tuned down, yes. maybe without individual dots, yes. But still there.
And anyway in WB there are icons,lke here isnt it?. THAT is the real problem when doing a bounce, not the radar. And I pray we dont get rid of them because I think a lot of fun would be gone (From my point of view). Is that an EZ feature?...yes. is it needed? yes (IMHO).
Is fly by wire an EZ Feature?...yes. Is it needed? NO! and it is a cheat, (Again IMHO).
The difference is abysmal, from my point of view.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-26-2000).]
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I know it was RAM and had you posted it on this board, it may have even been funny. But when that type of post is made on AGW, you have to expect it to cause some resentment.
Pretty much any snippet you take from an earlier post, much less another board is out of context. That is one reason I try not to quote other posts/boards when I reply.
But to the issue; Do you see my point about the kettle calling the pot black here? There is nothing wrong with the features of either game, it is only when we try to correlate them or ridicule them that we get into pissing matches.
Peace.
Hey! I remembered:
Lizking
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Originally posted by Gadfly:
I know it was RAM and had you posted it on this board, it may have even been funny. But when that type of post is made on AGW, you have to expect it to cause some resentment.
Maybe you are right, but I thought that AGW board was like this one, with people ready to laught more than flame. When I took a more wide view at it I saw it clearly wasnt the case. Was an error from my side but an unwanted one,too.
But to the issue; Do you see my point about the kettle calling the pot black here?
I only say why do I think that I can stick with AH as it is and why wont I stick with AH if they introduce an EZ mode as that of Warbirds. I stated in AGW board that IMHO they have now a better simulator.
I dont mess with WB's characteristics. I dont like Wb but thats ok, I see many people does like it and I find it great. No problems here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
There is nothing wrong with the features of either game, it is only when we try to correlate them or ridicule them that we get into pissing matches.
never tried to ridiculize Wb, although I sure dont like some things of it. I respect it as it is, one of the better simulators out there in the market. I think 95% people here thinks just as I do. In fact many people here flew it for years...
Hey! I remembered:
Lizking
lol!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
peace, Bro (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-26-2000).]
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Citabria:
Let me premise this by stating I don't fly EZ mode in the WB MA. Having said that, two or so years ago they had a thing called Fighter Ops. Fighter Ops was fun, it was free, and it was EZ mode... so I know how EZ mode works... very well in fact. And you cannot snap roll in EZ mode. The fact that some people on AGW thought that EZ mode explained lots of things doesn't make their comments true.
In my opinion, WB's EZ mode has at least one and quite possibly two big advantages:
1) Better ability to aim when at low speed and with your nose near the target, as long as you are over stall speed. The lack of torque and autotrim made this possible (IMO).
2) Not having to worry about snapping-out/spinning. Certain planes have a nice propensity for doing this. EZ mode pilots don't have to worry about it. This "advantage" has a nearly equal disadvantage -- EZ mode planes don't have nearly the same turning ability as Real mode aircraft.
3) I also think there was a drag problem... I found that P38s would float forever when coming in for a landing. Obviously if there was something affecting drag, that could have a pretty substantial impact also.
Those are the biggies I can think of. The first is the most significant, the second important but having a nearly equal disadvantage, and the third is merely speculation based on experience.
Here's an important thought... EZ mode is not all that advantageous... if it were, based on my knowledge of it (Fighter Ops ran for probably 6 months, and I played enough that I would have run up $150+ bills had it been a $2/hour game instead of free), don't you think I'd use it in the MA if gave that much of an advantage???? If you know how to fly in Real mode, play EZ mode for any period of time and you'll see that its disadvantages far outweigh its advantages.
Personally, I think most of the AGW freaking-out was done by people who didn't know much about EZ mode. My only serious quibble with WB EZ mode is probably the low speed aiming.
So, before you freak out, make sure you know what you're freaking out about. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Gadfly-
I think your point about anyone taking a superior stance on the EZ mode issue is very valid. It apparently is a necessary evil from a business standpoint- though I personally wish it wasn't.
Still, I see nothing wrong with anyone stating their opinions on said EZ mode's implementation. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) But you are right, there is no reason to push this into another "ours is better than yours" contest.
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I don't normally like to talk about WB, but since recent changes are bleeding over and having an affect on our future direction, I'd like to elaborate on a few things.
Having easy mode enabled in the main arena has been in WB since 1.11. This idea was first suggested by Trips. I recoiled from it at first but then it made sense. Trips and I ran a lot of tests to see if this would confer an advantage to an experienced player and found that that was not the case. While it would help the inexperienced player, it would actually handicap the experienced player. A great idea, and it was implemented. It's been that way for the past 3 years or so. It didn't detriment WB, it didn't make people leave.
This idea came on the heels of our inability to successfully seed an easy arena. While we could get plenty of players when we gave it away for free, we just couldn't compete at $2 per hour vs the $10 per month that the competition was offering.
We kept close tabs on numbers. We watched things like how many users we had using PCs or Macs and how many were using easy mode vs regular. We watched account growth and arena usage on a weekly basis. It wasn't speculative on our part.
We're in this business for the same reason as any other business- to make money. If that wasn't our goal, this would be a hobby not a business. But this is a very tough business. Some of our competitors are backed by multi-billion dollar corporations that don't need an immediate profit, some are depending on dot-com investors which are drying up quickly, and some have to become viable soon. We are the latter.
IEN is in a difficult position. They aren't cash rich and they're not in the black. They cannot afford to take hits to their revenue stream but that is exactly what they did when they moved a bunch of paying customers off to non-paying areas.
Despite their "record" revenue claim from online games, their quarterly report shows a loss in this area from a year ago. This is despite all the players playing Figher Ops on AOL that are allegedly adding to WB development. Frankly, it befuddles me how a representative of a publicly traded company could make any claims to earnings, much less false ones. Those things come out in press releases and quarterly reports. If I were an investor in Ien, I'd be finding an attorney to file a class action lawsuit.
So in the 3 years or so that easy mode has been available in the WB main, it only now has become a real problem due to internal reasons which has just cost a cash starved company a lot of money.
Where we stand is no different now than it was before. We're not going to implement something that gives an experienced player an advantage. If it gives an inexperienced player an added advantage due to his lack of experience, well that's the point. But while the easy mode in WB was cited as being theoretically advatageous in certain situations, I knew of no decent pilot who wouldn't be at a disadvantage using it. While it made some things easier, it handicapped an experienced player more. This handicap really didn't make a difference to the new player because he didn't have the skill to utilize it anyway and that was the point.
While I don't yet know what we will do, our viewpoint on this is no different than it was several years ago. It comes down to what will work for us.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
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See, it's these kinds of posts from the crew at HTC that make me feel alright with their direction. Kudos Pyro. Thanks for that.
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Thank you Pyro, very interesting.
This board is DEFINETELY worth visiting, even though for technical reasons I cant fly your sim.
Cheers
figaro
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EZ mode may broaden game appeal and bring in additional revenue but if it's mixed in the same arena with a fully realistic attempt at flight modeling it's going to cause flame wars like you've never imagined most specially with a group like this that was willing to cough up $30/month for the idealism of a realistic FM. The only time that anything will be fully disclosed to the players is when HT gets to be a public corporation and one of us can buy 51% of the shares. Before that it's their ball and they can set the rules. What's most disturbing to me is that this is the first time that I even thought that the possibility of your a, b, and c examples could happen here, but here it is from the mouth of the man himself. The only thing good about this whole revelation is that it's going to be a hell of a lot easyer and quicker for people to abandon a $30 sim that doesn't blow their skirt than a $10 one. I for one wish to put on the table the fact that somebody at HT had better edit their website and remove the idealistic "we don't want to be a big corporation etc." This whole drift is deja vu to anyone who came here from that other sim run by the BIG company.
Beeg
Originally posted by SnakeEyes:
Pyro is exactly right that there is a place for an EZ mode, and that it is a significant tool in broadening game appeal.
Having said that, I think it's important that any EZ mode designed not confer any advantages in any significant areas of flight (except takeoff and landing, we most people seem to accept) or combat. Moreover, I'd argue that the effects of EZ mode be fully disclosed to the players, and that it be subject to a thorough playtesting review by a cross section of players.
The biggest problem with the WB EZ mode is that:
a) The portions of the flight models that were simplified were only known generally (broad statements) rather than specifically, allowing players to only guess at what was truly different and its impact.
b) Whenever people questioned if it conferred advantages, they were brushed-off with flat denials by development that these changes did not affect combat (because they knew the reaction to the truth).
c) That the alterations actually did confer advantages in certain situations... but that those situations were both noticeable and important in terms of air combat.
IMO, as long as a reasonable amount of work is done to ensure that EZ mode does not provide any significant advantages, and as long as players are knowledgeable about those simplifications and development obtains the buy-in of the community through interaction, EZ mode in the main arena can work.
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(http://www.user.shentel.net/vonz/bee.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Beegerite (edited 05-27-2000).]
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Good post (of course) Pyro...
Despite a few minor advantages, the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages that would be conferred upon an experienced pilot... and, that's why I fly real mode (in WB or anywhere else) despite knowing of those few small areas that may provide some advantage to the EZ mode pilot.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Pyro it did make me leave, in a way. The 3 reasons i left WB were. 1 the gunnery/damage model changed every time I turned around. And never for the better. 2. I hated the rps. 3. EZmode in the main. The last I might add was not direct. I hardly used my 15 free hoursa month there. However you may feel about EZmode in the ACA, at least everyone was playing the same game. I never thought they would turn it off in the main. And AH didnt have an EZmode. Thats a big reason I came to this sim. And it will be the reason I go back to the ACA. I might as well save 20 bucks.
And I dont buy the it dont matter argument. In frstration, someone once posted on AGW that they should just go ahead and change the name from the ACA, to easymo,s arena. You can get REAL good at ezmode.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 05-27-2000).]
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well I would pray for a no Icon/no easy mode HA with 6 people in it before I played in a mixed flight model main arena.
of course I almost played the WB HA exclusively when I could afford it, rarely going to the MA and its flight model wierdness real or percieved.
The ACA never bothered me, everyone flew the same cheesed FM and the field was level.
I don't think it's necessary to mix FM's in one arena since this isn't pay by minute flight sim.
but if you do please give us diehard realism fans an HA where we can go play in the dark of no icons and no worries of ezmode dweebs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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but if you guys need EZ dweeb mode for HTC's common good I'm for it.
whatever floats your boat (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Just to clarify a few points.
Citabria you are incorrect. Warbirds has structural limits and dive speed where if you exceed certain speeds things start to come off your plane. Has had that for quite some time, unless you fly easymode.
On the easymode issue, Pyro outlined the issues. I think the combination of changes to the gunnery and damage models began to give a slight advantage to easymode pilots especially B&Z style pilots who could dive with immunity to structural damage. (After easymode was turned off, the number of manuever kills on FW's went up exponentially (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
While many of us expected there to be about 25% easymode pilots in the MA, we were shocked to find out it was nearly 50%.
Those of us who asked IEn to make a change, showed them examples of where we felt easymode was providing an advantage. They responded by making the change to the MA, but also stated they will be starting another MA that has both Real and Easymode flight. Basically trying to appease all the players.
The real mode MA will remain RPS, while the second MA will use a different combination of ideas (Sick's Generational RPS, Axis vs Allied arena) are two that I can remember.
In reading Pyro's responses, I can only assume that AH will follow a similar path. The economic reasons are obvious as to why you need to appeal to a mass audience so I am sure there will be an easymode for them in this game as well in the future, how its implemented or segregated into different arenas will be the key IMO.
Ram1
31st Fighter Group
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why bother
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 05-27-2000).]
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Originally posted by Ram1:
.
In reading Pyro's responses, I can only assume that AH will follow a similar path. The economic reasons are obvious as to why you need to appeal to a mass audience so I am sure there will be an easymode for them in this game as well in the future, how its implemented or segregated into different arenas will be the key IMO.
I may understand the reasons for an EZ mode. But If they ever make a mixed MA with RM and EZ modes available, and there isnt an exxclusive RM MA, then I'll be done in Aces High.
I was a newbie 4 months ago. I climbed the hill and learned the sim. I dont see why other people cant do the same...but I understand that HTC needs the money.
I only ask for them to be careful in the implementation. I wont fly in a mixed arena. IF that means I must leave I'll do it. And so I think many people here will do the same.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-27-2000).]
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Great posts Pyro, SnakeEyes, Beegertite, Easymo, RAM1, RAM, Citabria....et al....
It sure has been fun to be purely a voyeur on this thread and sit on the sidelines eating popcorn.
Lots of great intellectually stimulating and healthy adversarial dialog. I would bet that this discussion alone, helps HTC somewhat in their design dilemma of how to cope with this systemic problem within flight simulations. How do you separate church and state, yet keep everyone happy?
Personally, as one voice only, I would be willing to pay a premium over the standard rate. In other words, "a la carte" pricing. I would expect, besides the conventional "please them all" MA, access to a greater realism and more mature environment (reduced icons etc etc etc) with its associated HTC supervised scenarios plus the tools that help create those, even if it meant a handful of people in there at any time.
In any event, I have enjoyed the professionalism of the discussion. I noticed that a number of the academics didn't chime in on this one? What, you guys all sick or something? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I'll let you all in on a dirty little secret. I flew WB v1.1 from 1996 onward in easy mode. I flew easy mode for almost 2 1/2 - 3 years in all arenas and during scenarios, including the HA when it come on-line as an arena. I did very very very very well, establishing at times a 3-1 K/D. In spite of what all the guys in here or WB say about the mode, it gave me a distinct advantage over a real mode flyer in a few specific areas. I had a much more stable gun platform, never having to worry about trim. My B&Z flying was a smooth as glass and I could kill at will and RTB, as long as I kept my speed up and maintained good SA in regards to altitude. I always fought and still do, on "My Time, My Terms, My Ground". In T&B's with specific planes suited to this, I was able to out-turn most of the general players of normal skill sets on WB, except for the hot sticks like vigil, vila, ppit and others who were Masters of the hand/eye coordination needed to be really good at this type of game. I could play "circle jerk" in a Spit or Zeke for an hour with the stall horn blaring while I drank beer and ate popcorn with the other hand, never worrying about stalling into the ground. I can't count the number of times an opposing pilot has come back and said "wow..great turning"...hehe. I graduated to learning RM, sometime in early 1999 and now, the RM mode is the same as easy mode felt to me back then. I simply trim a lot without even thinking about it anymore. I love the fact that there is no easy mode in AH, but I do warn HTC that there are a LOT of people going to a WB ACA at $9.95/month to simply do the "quake birds" thingy. HTC is on the right track with the "auto take-off" kind of feature and perhaps needs to expand that kind of thinking, to help the learning curve for the "newbie", without alienating the guys who have already paid their dues. I don't know exactly what that means, but it has something to do with the feature and function design of AH as it evolves.
Regards,
Badger
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Thanks Pyro! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
What I notice quite often is that players do not want to "lose their edge". IMO this is perceived to mean that changing something will not allow them to be as succesful or allow others to be more succesful. This generates "fear" which often translates itself into some form of "anger" by those players.
I am not specifically a proponent of EZMode, but I do understand a handicapping system. Many sports support a handicapping system and it works quite well at attempting to even the playing field. Realistically this erodes the idea of "skill" where those of less skill can triumph over those of greater skill.
However, we all (as players) have to face up to one fact. It is not flying the plane that makes you successful. I can fly the plane very well, but I am only moderately successful. It is what goes on in the "brain cage" that makes a player successful.
This translates into two forms of skill:
- Physical Skill - How well you can fly the plane
- Mental Skill - How well you understand tactics that are successful
Very quickly most players can fly the plane quite well. Most can do fairly well in two weeks. This is independent of wether the flight mode is fantasy, arcade, easy, advanced, accurate, difficult, hardcore or just plain impossible.
BUT...
It takes years to develope the "know how" to be successful. This is the most prized skill to players and income wise the most successful one for the game developer. The idea is to add and keep customers.
I like your ideas, based on the fact that they have been successful in the past.
<Salute>
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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You know when I played WB, I tried the ACA a few times, and subsequently had to fly with EZ mode. To tell you the truth, I felt it was a real limiter on my abilities, dampening & delaying my stick & rudder movements. Of course, by the time I was flying in the ACA, it had been a couple years since I first flew in WB. Thus, my skills were anything, if newbie-ish.
I don't think EZ mode is all it's cranked-up to be. If it gives some newbie a chance at living for a while, then why not? It certainly won't do an experienced player an advantage unless they're a very, very poor pilot.
A few days ago, I was flying in my La5 and came upon a Rook F4u & spit who were lower than me. I engaged the f4u first, dispatched it, then turned after the spit. While maneuvering into position, I couldn't help but notice the erratic maneuvering of the spit. I made a guns pass, and scored a single ping, only to see it break much later than I had thought it would. Pulling up, I dove upon it again, but was confused at the spitfire, since it almost appeared to be badly damaged, and almost out of control. On the general channel, I was immediately asked by the F4u pilot to spare the spit player as this was his first time flying in AH. I immediately disengaged, not relishing such a kill as a 'babe in the woods'. If EZ mode would have given that spit player more of a chance, more power to them. Then I would've killed him (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Fly-by-wire 109G10 would be mortal
Fly-by-wire Spit IX same
Fly-by-wire F4U1-C too
Fly-by-wire Spit XIV when it comes, too
and I can follow and follow. EZ would be used by some "not so newbies" and make EZ mode a "cheat" mode.
As I said as long as they make an exclusive RM Main Arena , I am in. If they mix it and I have no RM MAin arena, I'm gone.
my 0.02$
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ah RAM...
don't you like playing chesskers? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Thanks Pyro. Interesting viewpoint.
HTC has to survive for the game to progress; that's a no brainer.
If you need an EZ mode to survive as a company...well, there ya are!
My personal take is that EZ should have it's own separate arena but there are probably lots of options.
Separate arenas/accounts with different pricing might be one.
At the very least, a guy flying EZ should get that tag on his icon. "EZspit" It would give them a reason to move on to the other FM!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
G,D,R
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Geez, I swore I'd stay out of here until I was at least a "customer," but I can't resist. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
At least you guys now know just WHO put the Easy Mode into Warbirds, WHO put it in the same arena with Real Mode, and WHO might do it in your pristine combat world too if business requires it.
As for the analysis of whether or not it's a good idea, I'll simply point out that there are numerous EZ mode flyers who were consistently able to place in the Top 50, Top 10, and I think on one or two occasions even WIN the fighter tour of duty. And that was over LOTS of "decent" experienced players flying in REAL mode. I'm not a big score guy, but you have to wonder about an EZ mode "dweeb" who can put up that kind of numbers in the shark pool.
If you think EZ mode can only be used by "weak" players to give them a "fighting chance," you're a lot more naive than you think you are. This may have been "adequately tested" when it was FIRST introduced, and no one had figured out how to "game the game" with it, but in two years, things have changed, and the "win-at-all-costs" jerks have added yet another "skill" to their bag of tricks.
Fortunately, you all don't have any jerks like that over here. Of course, you also don't have EZ mode.
Yet.
I suggest that if you want to avoid the crap that's going on over in the "lightweight" sim, you'd do well to read those topics over there, think REAL hard about em, and let the powers that be over here know that what seemed like a good idea at the time turned out to be a BIG mistake in the long run. Tell em to come up with some other way of bringing new players into the game, or you're gonna be looking back at this as "the good old days" and looking at some OTHER sim as the one with the "most realistic air combat."
Besides, when I DO become a customer over here, I don't wanna play with no EZ mode dweebs in MY realism arena (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Minotaur wrote:
This translates into two forms of skill: Physical Skill - How well you can fly the plane
Mental Skill - How well you understand tactics that are successful
Mm, I understand where you're coming from, but I think there's more to the issue.
What skills are succesful depend on how well you can fly your plane. Adding an autotrim/EZ mode would remove one skill element here. Much can be said about it and I won't comment further on it.
However, it *will* change just *what* maneuvers you can do in EZ mode and in real mode. In the 109G10 for instance, trim is a real issue and something one must take into account when you plan your moves, i.e how well you understand tactics that are succesful.
If I ever fly an autotrimmed 109G10, I'll oull some stunts I have problems doing so. I'll also be much more agressive, and most of all, rest assured that I will develop new tactics that incoporporate the new capabilities of my aircraft.
That's one of my objections to a combined EZ/Real MA. Another one is level playing ground.
I also understand that Pyro et al runs a company that's there to make a buck or two. I just think (cannot say for sure til I've tried it) that it won't be my $30 a month, since my second objection really carries some weight to me.
I won't play chess with a guy who starts off with 10 queens, or two.
I won't play flight sims where potentially (and likely) I'll meet pilots of equal skill in the same aircraft but with "an extra queen".
The people of HTC have some pretty hard decisions in front of them. I do think that if they implement a mixed main arena, they'll lose part of their customers, and gain some new ones. It is likely that some of the purists who hold the same objections as I do will seek more fertile playing grounds.
We'll just have to wait and see.
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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I dont play AH, but I must post on this EZ mode thing. While I never played in EZ mode in the main, I have a lot of time in it in the other arena's. I agree with badger and snakeye's, you can become REAL GOOD in easy mode. Funny I didnt put it to the test, but I did ask a lot of people about it, I was brushed off. I will take badger at his word about his experience.
Badger, man I never thought you were in easy mode (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif), "diry little secret" indeed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Not to be snobbish, but about the time I was getting to be an average to above average player is when easy mode was unleashed. Suddenly everyone was at my level and above in the main, you see they stayed in easy and I stayed in real, but I was only average. Neat huh, plenty of "fair fights" and good numbers, boy no wonder I went from 100.00+ a month to 20.00 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Wrench -=Night Stalkers=-
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Pyro,
This is a very important issue. I am a puritan on this matter and will feel soiled if more than one level of physics is modeled in the same arena. It fosters mistrust and suspician and generally sucks.
I can live with auto takeoff. Thats no biggie but if we start mixing things up, well
I just dont want to go through that again.
The F4U-1C lethality problem was so predictable and having easymode mixed in with real would make that look like a tea party.
Business is business and all that so do what you must but be please be careful.
Yeager
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Jedi;
I read your post to understand that you believe the sole reason certain players are more successful is that they fly in EZMode.
I could likely compare that same "win at all cost" mentality to those players who fly nothing but the most dominating plane in the MA, could I not?.
Do those successful "EZMode Dweebs" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) fly significantly better or do they think significantly better?
Does EZMode just provide a substantial advantage that allows them to compete at the same skill level and be more successful?
I am not trying to be contrary just for the sake of it. These are honest questions on my part, respecting your input.
Converting to Golf. I am very used to the scenerio that you described above, so it does not bother me. I have yet to win a handicapped tournament, even though my skill level surpasses those that do win.
Therefore; this EZMode should have some checks and balances. Such as, for increasing actual player skill combined with the decreasing of EZMode options. At an end piont decreasing the options so that there are NO OPTIONS. The player must particpate at the "Full Realism" level.
This is "in theory" how the handicap system of golf works. But, you are correct. There are certainly golfers that take advantage of a system that is meant to be fair, by "Gaming the Game". Frankly others just "Cheat". This however; does not effect myself, but only effects them.
The purpose of EZMode should remain true to its calling, reduce the frustration of "New" players somewhat. Let them enjoy the game initially to become frustratedly happy and a steady paying customer like the rest of us. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As Pyro explains it, I do not think that HTC will take this on without significant fore thought. So, while I'm not really for it I am willing to give it a try. Pyro pretty much explained that HTC needs to be financially successful or there will no "Modes" at all to fly in.
Sorry for the length of this post. Thanks for your input! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by Wrench:
Badger, man I never thought you were in easy mode (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif), "diry little secret" indeed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hi Wrench.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Nice to see (hear) from you again.... <Salute>
Yup, until I think early January 99, but I can't quite remember the exact time. I always knew that a great many guys were flying "easy mode" in the WB's MA and HA. I tried to discuss it a few times, but was always treated as if it was heresy to mention it by some, while others spouted the old party line that it was actually a disadvantage to use easy mode against RM pilots. I could always tell when I was engaging a guy in easy mode versus RM, because I personally had accumulated a lot of experience with it. I knew the numbers were huge, but simply didn't want to open one of those endless debates that they now seem to have come to on AGW.
I know I finished at least once in the top three scores while using easy mode. On the other hand, I remember finishing as the top score in the HA twice, after I had learned to fly RM and RAM1 or VERT had disabled that capability for that specific arena.
I guess the moral for me was, all of the flying in easy mode made it relatively easy to adapt to RM when I finally chose to learn it. I think the entire thing is blown way out of proportion as it is JUST A GAME for me. Maybe that's why I have a problem understanding all of the flurry of activity with the AGW thread. Who cares in an MA environment as it's one huge FFA "gang bang" anyway, so why not let people fly either mode. IEN should have left it that way. Instead, they have now cut their own financial throats with no serious demographic research of the quiet majority who never post anywhere, opting to listen to the vocal minority of the BBS who screamed how indignant they were about associating with the easy mode riff raff. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
It's interesting to see the reactions of a lot of guys I've known for years. Although I'm white male, I think for the first time in my life I have some inkling as to what it must be like to be a visible minority.
I hope we get the opportunity to fly together again sometime partner. I still remember our fun days with FO.
Regards,
Badger
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StSanta;
Ouch! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Suddenly I fined myself on the hot seat, but thanks for replying to my post.
I understand what you mean by a level playing field. Read my post above. (LOL I was typing as your were typing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
From my brief experience as an AH trainer and as someone wanting HTC to be a solid financial company I see the need. This is for personal reasons only and those reasons are so that I can play a long time.
I factiod this into my thoughts. Most on-line flight sim players today, play in games where "relaxed reality" is prevelent. Let them transition to AH and be happy paying customers, don't turn them off immediately when perhaps they would actually enjoy the game after some more time.
Here is where I stand on EZMode after the insight provided by Jedi's comments.
By Mino:
Therefore; this EZMode should have some checks and balances. Such as, for increasing actual player skill combined with the decreasing of EZMode options. At an end piont decreasing the options so that there are NO OPTIONS. The player must particpate at the "Full Realism" level.
By Mino:
The purpose of EZMode should remain true to its calling, reduce the frustration of "New" players somewhat. Let them enjoy the game initially to become frustratedly happy and a steady paying customer like the rest of us.
I will add that I feel this should not be a long transistion. Dependending upon initial player skill, it should be 1 week to 2 months.
EZMode should possibly be limited and applied to only a few planes in the planeset, not every single plane. As you state, the 109G-10 would be a very poor candidate for EZMode options.
Thanks for your input! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by jedi:
At least you guys now know just WHO put the Easy Mode into Warbirds, WHO put it in the same arena with Real Mode, and WHO might do it in your pristine combat world too if business requires it.
Well duh. Who do you think was responsible for most of what you play over there outside of 2 new planes and 3 variants, a year and a half of gunnery tweaks at the expense of any real development, and implementation of a mandatory ilz?
Rag on us all you want. It doesn't change the past and it won't change the future.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
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I see people getting bent over something that they're not even familiar with. We don't yet have an easy mode, we don't yet know exactly how we're going to implement one, and we don't yet know if we'll be able to mix it or not. However, we do fully understand the issues involved.
In the end, my preference would be for an easy mode that can be mixed and kept fair, but with a separate arena. The reason for this is because it gives new players an easier arena to play in without having to fall victim to all the hardened vets, and yet not divide the game completely so that things like special events have to be tailored to one group or another. But bringing up another arena is a lot more involved than just starting one up. You have to have the people to seed it with.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
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Originally posted by Pyro:
In the end, my preference would be for an easy mode that can be mixed and kept fair, but with a separate arena.
Hehe...I can't believe it. Badger and Pyro actually agreeing upon something. <Salute>
Mix them in MA if yould like....mark their Country, Plane, Name Icon to show <E> mode On. Conversely, or inclusively (do both)give them separate arena, so they gain the thrill of playing with equal skill sets till they develop. It's academic, but separate the two religions or balance the fairness when they are together.
Thanks for listening, as always....
Regards,
Badger
[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 05-27-2000).]
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Nice to be home eh...Pyro.People never seem to see the "s" on arenas
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Well, uh, seeing as how the vast majority of these flight sim types want an easy game, and don't intend to play it more than a few times a month, I suppose you could create a RR arena and charge $10/month for that. You'd probly see the same or better load/$charge as with $30/month for the current MA. Of course, you'd still get people getting really good in RR and others whining that they can't afford FR (or pay too much for essentially the same game).
Dinger
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Pyro. I have always felt that fighter ace handled this the best way. Whatm new people want, more than anything, is a kill. With the big guns you already have this covered. All they would need is other newbi,s to shoot at. FA, as im sure you know, has a newbi arena. once you hit a number of kills you are kicked out.
The arena could be seeded with trainers. Rename the TA. Make it a real arena (kill shooter on. ect.) add ezmode. Keep anybody out that has over a hundred kills. and kick the newbi out when he hits his one hundred.
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I think Mino's idea is fantastic.
Much the same as you will track points (however this is going to be handled) in order to determine when someone's allowed to get an uber plane, track the points on EZ mode players in order to decrease their handicap and incrementally disable the effectiveness of the EZ mode features.
If the numbers allow it though, my vote is still to have seperate arenas. My hope is that EZ mode be used here to yes, attract new customers, BUT be done in such a way that *encourages* people to move up to FR.
Badger (just using him as the only example I know - not saying anything (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) flew EZ mode for three years. There obviously just wasn't enough of an incentive for him to climb the ladder to FR. So what I'm saying is... I like the idea of EZ mode being used as a *transition* for folks who need to learn the basics, but not a *state* for those who should now have been weened off it. If that makes any sense. I guess it's all in how it's implemented.
To sum up - if there were seperate arenas, allow EZ mode fellahs to fly in EZ mode forever if they chose. If ya need to mix em with the MA, there should be controls that forcibly ween them off of it as they progress.
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Pyro PLEASE don't get too worked up over a few overdramatic UBB junkies...
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Originally posted by funked:
Pyro PLEASE don't get too worked up over a few overdramatic UBB junkies...
LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oh sure Funked! Resorting to name calling is for who?
AH.... That lame flame felt SO GOOD! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Wrench & Badger - Don't get me wrong... I think EZ mode confers some advantages, but only in some pretty limited situations. I personally have no qualms with mixing EZ and Real Mode in the same arena.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Wasn't "raggin on you" at all Pyro. In fact, although you maybe missed my point a bit, you made it for me again.
A lot of folks get a big kick out of pointing out how "screwed up" Warbirds is. Since iEN, as you point out, has done almost nothing except create a gunnery model that's only slightly improved over the last one YOU guys put in, iEN can be "blamed" for not advancing, but the only guys who could've "screwed up" Warbirds is...er...you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
But that would assume that Warbirds is "screwed up" in the first place, which IMO it's not. The sim you left wasn't "broken" when you left it, you guys were magnanimous enough to "fix it" when some other guys screwed it up after you left, and it's not broken now. I just find it...er...humorous when guys over here get so incredulous about "how could iEN EVER have put EZ mode in the Main Arena in the first place?" when iEN DIDN'T do it, they UN-did it! And guess where the guys who DID do it work now? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) P.S. You'll never guess WHY the LW guys over in WB think the Dora is such a "dog" over there. Guess where most of those guys fly now?
As for EZ mode, I simply disagree with both your reasoning and the decision itself. Or isn't that allowed? If you go beyond the "auto-takeoff" mode over here, you'll be making the same mistake again. There are indeed SOME new players who NEED a "handicap" that some sort of EZ mode provides. Making it available to everyone, all the time, and then allowing them to keep that shortcut and use it against players who play at "full difficulty level" is not fair, and it's not smart if you value the customers you have now as much as the ones you don't have yet.
Minotaur has the right idea back up there a few posts. If you're gonna let people skip whatever "rules" they don't like or can't handle, you'd better make sure that you build in something that takes that option away as they master the game. If EZ-mode abusers can kill enough Real Mode guys to get to the top of the rankings, just imagine what they'll do to EZ-mode NEWBIES.
Hey, what do I know? I don't design games. I just play em (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
--jedi
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Excellent response Minotaur, and a good suggestion on how to implement it.
Good as it may be, it doesn't meet my personal "same game" criterion, but that's just personal preference (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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StSanta;
Trust me, it is not the "same game". Go to the TA and work with a complete Newbie.
Perhaps you already realize the difference in ability, but this might help bridge the gap in understanding of why I feel some form of EZMode might be utilized under the conditions I have explained.
Most often these new players are very little threat to any player who is competing regularly in the MA.
Their transistion out of EZMode might even be seen as passing the first test of "AcesHigh PilotHood" to the rest of the AH community. This being worthy of a simulated "Pat on the Back".
EZMode does not bolt on so well with myself either. My personal preference is for there not to be one or, as Pyro describes, only in a seperate arena. I see it as kind of a necessary evil, sort of like making sure our power bills get paid. If the electric company goes broke, my lights stay off for a long time.
Thanks again! <Salute> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by Nash:
Badger (just using him as the only example I know - not saying anything (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) flew EZ mode for three years. There obviously just wasn't enough of an incentive for him to climb the ladder to FR.
Nash is ABSOLUTELY correct. Even being a real life pilot working on some aerobatics training, I had no desire and no incentive to want to spend time learning RM. Easy mode was available to me, I did very well with it and enjoyed WB for what it is, simply a game. I wasn't cheating as it was a standard game option supplied first by ICI all the way back to v1.11 that I remember, then carried on by iEN. I only switched when I had some extra time on my hands to go through the hand/eye dexterity learning curve, plus I wanted more of a challenge to see if I could do as well under the RM flight model. To my surprise, I learned it very quickly because I had the benefit of so much easy mode time. I also discovered I did better with RM, being able to get that extra out of each plane that was throttled back under easy mode.
To be frank, if easy mode had not been available for me at all in WB, I wouldn't be here today, as I wouldn't have invested the initial learning curve time to master the joystick coordination in order to play the game. I would have cancelled by WB's subscription and left. I wonder how many other badgers have tried AH and not gone further than the trial period, as it's simply too much time investment for them to become half way competitive. It sure would get frustrating to me to be killed every two minutes, due to the generally high quality of pilots who fly in AH. I wonder how many of those went over to $9.95/month WB, just to fly the air starts, no red outs or black outs, no stalls, no compression etc etc etc ACA, which now to me feels like flying around in thick soup compared to either WB RM or AH RM.
Just some thoughts.
Regards,
Badger
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Badger has a point. That spit player I almost killed a few days ago was a true babe in the woods. He was so close to departing controlled flight all by himself, that I'm sure if I had just buzzed him a few times, he would have eventually augered.
When I first played WB I hadn't flown a flight sim in 10 years, and it showed because it took me three months before I could even be considered competent squaddie material. I mean, up until that point every landing was a 50-50 proposition.
There are many good ideas in this thread about implementation of EZ-mode that wouldn't compromise on the stone-cold hard-core veterans (other than their principles). The fact remains that unless AH keeps the flow of customers coming, it may very well flounder. Then where will we be? If EZ mode happens, it happens. WB's 'relaxed-realism' was always a handicap for me, and I'm sure AH's will be for all you other longtime players.
What's the harm in allowing a newbie the chance to get just the least bit satisfying taste of air combat by having EZ-mode? Heck, we're all such elitist, I'm sure any self-respecting newbie will mark the day he switched to flying Real-mode, like the rest of us ... old fogies?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Mino I include myself in that group. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Started as a FR pilot in WB H2H... got to be pretty ok.
Along came Fighter Ops... megaplayer at a budget! Only caveat was it was EZ mode... oh well, just can't afford $2 per hour...
Then came scenarios. I didn't mind paying the little extra for those. Problem was, all those months of flying nothing but EZ mode had dulled my reflexes considerably. What to do? Simple. I flew EZ mode. The experts kept telling us that it was a disadvantage (though I felt differently, I spent the bulk of my time playing EZ) so I did it. Didn't tear up the place, mind you, but I did ok.
ACA comes along. Yay! It has FR and EZ, I immediately go to FR. Then comes the decision to remove FR. Back to EZ. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
DoA comes next. FR, yay! Wait, now there's EZ too, and there is a pronounced edge with EZ mode. Though I remain FR (as it is my preference) it quickly becomes apparent these two modes cannot co-exist in DoA. EZ is removed, paradise restored. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Disco goddesses can be cruel, and the "every-five-minute disco" hit me 24/7 for about 6 weeks. Though I dearly loved the game, I was out cold. AH had been beta for a bit, and I decided to satisfy my jones here. Got the hang of the flight model in due time (DoA was actually a big help here; those WWI kites are damned unforgiving of energy mismanagement!) and haven't looked back.
Until now.
The reason for relating this novella is to illustrate that I have had experiences on both sides of this issue enough to know one thing; EZ mode does offer advantages to those that know how to use them. As implemented in WB I think EZ somewhat, though not dramatically as some say, unlevels the playing field. Example- if you are in a Spit V and you are playing that 190 for a stall, it isn't going to happen when you think it will, if at all. He will pull that nose up and bleed every ounce of E and then some while you dog out below. True, his nose won't whip around as quickly as when in FR, but if you played everything you had for the one shot, you're done.
For me, I would be happy if the MA was mixed IF we get an HA for the hardcore crowd. After all, the features that have been asked for are more in line with that setup anyway, and anyone upset with MA features would have a place to go.
Not trying to be a snob about this, and I am genuinely interested in the welfare of HTC and the new flyer. Still, when I turnfight someone I am often trying to wring the last bit of energy out of their fighter before I get the easy shot- I know from experience that mixed f/m's can make that a guessing game.
All of the above is based on my WB/DoA/FO experiences, and may not reflect what HTC has in store for AH. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)-
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Kiren. Imagin a 1c turnning on a dime at 50 ias. dead stable platform to ho anything that comes near it. We got guns those other games didnt have.
I dont care if they turn off the FR. as long as we are all in the same mode. I just dont want to be playing golf with a basketball.
BTW i dont want to go into an HA to find it. Every prop sim on the net has some version of an HA. And they always have far fewer people in them.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 05-28-2000).]
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 05-28-2000).]
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Well, even though I flew WB for about 4 years, and hated the idea that EZMode was available in the MA, I just gotta say that I think that creating another arena for EZ players is a real bad idea.
Why? Well in my time zone I often log in to find as few as 6 people online. Half of those are guys I've never seen before, and would probably be candidates for an EZ Arena.
So my evenings would be full of the fun of trying to find a fight with maybe 1 or 2 enemy pilots.
Mino's idea is great - allow EZMode in the MA but link it to kills, points, whatever. Once a pilot makes it past, say 25 kills, disable no stalls - 50 kills? - he loses autotrim etc.
But you gotta give him something back for graduating out of EZMode, some kind of incentive. Perhaps engine management can be tied in here somehow?
Full EZ Options - only 90% of available power
Lose 'No Stall' - 95% of available power
Lose 'Autotrim' - 100% of available power
My $0.04 (Australian currency exchange rate) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
'feel the heat .......'
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One thing is sure,
If in Ah will be an arena with full and relaxed reality mixed together, with regret,
i'll erase my account.
I don't like too different era planes in same arena...but mixed reality is unproposable!
AXE
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Guys...
I am not sure what is terrible elitist about wnating a level playfield.
Not sure what is terrible elitist about expecting others to go through the same difficulties as I do when fighting others.
Not sure it is terribly elitist to want NOT to have to doubt "is this guy an EZ mode driver?" and have to go on a 50-50 guess every time.
It's not about elitism. I am not saying that newbies are worthless plebeians suitable only for mowing my lawn with their ugly faces. Just saying that if they're on my lawn and want to race me, they better use the same style of lawn mower.
I've found elitism to be defined by: elitism n : the attitude that society should be governed by an elite group of individuals
Even though elitism is used in a different way here, the definition still carries some weight. I'm all for newbies, but I am also all for letting differences in experience levels show.
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 05-28-2000).]
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I've steered a few friends to this game recently. Right now, only one is still playing, and I am not sure if he will stick around when his two week trial is up. The general concensus among them is "Why do I want to pay $30 a month to do nothing but get shot down all the time?" In essence, they are not to the point where the game quits being about trudging up the learning curve and starts being about having fun before their free trial runs out.
The game as it is can be extremely frustrating for a newbie. This is not necessarily due to the flight model being difficult. These guys learned to take off, land, make basic flight and combat maneuvers in relatively short order. Rather, it is that the skill of the pilots in the MA is at such a high level that the new player can't really compete. They take off, fly for 10 minutes, and then are shot down before they knew they were in danger. The game isn't fun for them, and they wonder how anyone but a masochist would pay $30 a month for this.
My enjoyment of Aces High will never be dependent on or affected by any other pilot here. My enjoyment is, however, dependent on and affected by the game being here. So HTC has my support for an EZ mode for new players to make the game more accessible to them. Put it either in a seperate arena or in the main arena. If it is in the main arena, consider having it shut off whenever a player gets a certain number of kills or kill per death ratio.
Gordo
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Am I the only one here who thinks that EZ mode players would make for a GREAT campaign for a non-easy mode HA?
Let them buzz around in the MA, theres enough dweebery in MA right now when you think about it. Then give us more dedicated folks an HA to play in that has no ez mode. I mean hell, anyone in an HA is there for the reality of it anyways eh?
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I concur completely with Sorrow. I, personally, would really hate to see a mixed arena. I realize HTC have to do whatever it take to remain solvent (Or get solvent). But I would really hate to see a mixed FM arena. I understand the need to create a more relaxed arena. There are many people from my Fighter Ace Squad who won't fly here because of the FM, but they love the graphics. Of course, they never flew Full Realistic over at Fighter Ace either like some of the rest of us in our squad. I think an EZ Mode arena is an excellent idea. However, a mixed mode? I just don't like the idea and I can visualize what Kieren was talking about,`not knowing' which FM you are going against in a fight would make it difficult to fight your opponents.
What I think would be cool, and add incentive to learning a Full Realistic FM, would be to have an EZ arena with a limited plane set. What I am talking about, is maybe having five extra planes in the full realistic arena that you don't have in the EZ arena as an incentive to learn the more difficult FM. Another idea would be to have the EZ mode only consist of early war plane types. If you wanted to fly late war types, you would need to learn the more difficult FM. I'm not quite sure if that makes good business sense, but I think the arenas should be seperate, or there should at least be some incentive to fly/learn the more difficult FM. If there isn't I can spend $10.00/month where I was instead of $30.00/month here. I know I am only one, and that isn't meant as a threat or anything like that. I am only stating my POV as a paying customer, because I really enjoy AH, but if it ends up similar to what I came from, whats the point?
(http://devildogs.com/vmf111/sdsig2.gif)
[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 05-28-2000).]