Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Films and Screenshots => Topic started by: Bopgun on May 16, 2022, 10:03:57 PM
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Just buzzin around in the amazing Monday Night Madness when I get jumped by a Brewster. After The short fight the individual accused me of taking a Head On shot and left in a huff.
Now normally I really don't care about this kind of crap but the MNM has a specific rule against it so I'd like to keep the record straight. Does anyone else believe this was what we consider a "HO" shot???
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If that's a HO shot, than any shot is a HO shot.
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Not going to watch the film because I am too busy but when flying these games you need to understand that at times you and your opponent are not actually seeing the identical same thing due to the fact of how the internet works and 2 separate FEs plus what the server is getting and sending back.
Lusche has recorded/ films and all to show all this information many years ago
Edit: or might have been batfink...
Just letting y'all know
Hope this helps
TC
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Not going to watch the film because I am too busy but when flying these games you need to understand that at times you and your opponent are not actually seeing the identical same thing due to the fact of how the internet works and 2 separate FEs plus what the server is getting and sending back.
While this is certainly true, there would have to be a really huge difference for anyone to call that a HO. Why don't you ask OOPK for his/her film? Could be interesting.
- oldman (Sorry I couldn't make MNM this night, looks like it was fun times)
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TC, you really should watch the clip.
While what you posted is very true, the victim is simply making excuses for getting reversed and shot from the high 6 position after overshooting.
It's really laughable.
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TC, you really should watch the clip.
While what you posted is very true, the victim is simply making excuses for getting reversed and shot from the high 6 position after overshooting.
It's really laughable.
Now that sounds hilarious 😂 😃...I will try to get to before to see it this weekend...got doctors and stuff....damn fingers hurt and are not willing to worry too right for 3me...ah f it.
Heh
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My memory just reminded me of something from long ago Devil505, was it not y'alls AW 505 squad that came to me and asked to help y'all get your AW Squadron website going? Hehe I can't believe that just came back to my memory right now 😅
<S> and cheers
TC
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My memory just reminded me of something from long ago Devil505, was it not y'alls AW 505 squad that came to me and asked to help y'all get your AW Squadron website going? Hehe I can't believe that just came back to my memory right now 😅
<S> and cheers
TC
No, my name is a reference to Flight of the Intruder. The A-6 often flown by the protagonist, Jake Grafton, has the radio call sign of Devil 505.
:cheers:
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If that's a HO shot, than any shot is a HO shot.
Apparently any time 00PK is shot at its a Head On
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Apparently any time 00PK is shot at its a Head On
I was there and don't remember 00PK's comment, but the film doesn't do justice to the confused atmosphere in MNM. The fog and the decreased enemy icon range is enough to confuse me. I spend a lot of time dodging between buildings with someone on my six and the stall buzzer going off n my ear.
And it's not unusual that I look forward after checking my six and find a red icon at D6 and closing. I think there's a difference between that and the deliberate HO. And, in my opinion, what I saw on the film, and I watched both the 'recorded views' and 'external' view, didn't look like an HO to me.
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I was there and don't remember 00PK's comment, but the film doesn't do justice to the confused atmosphere in MNM. The fog and the decreased enemy icon range is enough to confuse me. I spend a lot of time dodging between buildings with someone on my six and the stall buzzer going off n my ear.
And it's not unusual that I look forward after checking my six and find a red icon at D6 and closing. I think there's a difference between that and the deliberate HO. And, in my opinion, what I saw on the film, and I watched both the 'recorded views' and 'external' view, didn't look like an HO to me.
Passing each other head-on like it the situation described is OK, firing while passing head-on is not.
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Passing each other head-on like it the situation described is OK, firing while passing head-on is not.
Fugitive, I respect your opinion. So, if I'm avoiding a HO situation and fire a burst, is that firing in an HO or a deflection shot? MNM is about the only place I engage in ACM, but my thinking has been that, whenever I believe my rounds have a reasonable chance at hitting my target, it's time to fire. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but there are players who do not value chivalry and then there are those who go full throttle into the dark side of the game.
Just my opinion, as always.
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Cant believe someone actually complained about it. Its all good. Best of times.
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Cant believe someone actually complained about it. Its all good. Best of times.
Exactly
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Unless it's stated somewhere I have never seen, it's not against the rules to ho in ma.
Stop crying about it and don't put yourself in a position for it if you don't want it..
If you are in a turny plane or have your buddies around you and you see a lone g2 with gonds coming your way, please expect my ho..sorry my first choice is not to turn fight lol
Anything outside 11 to 1 is not a ho, many not seeing the angle correctly on their fe will complain it is..
If you are alone in any plane and a 109f4 is headed your way, I will not ho
Unless the setup is non ho - see MNM where planes pass by head on all night as hoing is not tolerated - I expected it as it happens more than it doesn't
Eagler
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Fugitive, I respect your opinion. So, if I'm avoiding a HO situation and fire a burst, is that firing in an HO or a deflection shot? MNM is about the only place I engage in ACM, but my thinking has been that, whenever I believe my rounds have a reasonable chance at hitting my target, it's time to fire. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but there are players who do not value chivalry and then there are those who go full throttle into the dark side of the game.
Just my opinion, as always.
Eagler, we are talking about Monday Night Madness here. It is my understanding that HO shots are aren't allowed.
Decoy, in my opinion any shot taken nose on nose is a HO. I prefer to maneuver for a shot, aka " fight" against another player. That doesn't always last that long in the MA. If I just wanted kills I'd up a 190 and pick and HO all night. I'm just 10 kills away from hitting 20k kills in the MA, but I'll bet I have less than a 1000 got fights in the same time.
But that's just me, your mileage may vary. :azn:
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Unless it's stated somewhere I have never seen, it's not against the rules to ho in ma.
Stop crying about it and don't put yourself in a position for it if you don't want it..
If you are in a turny plane or have your buddies around you and you see a lone g2 with gonds coming your way, please expect my ho..sorry my first choice is not to turn fight lol
Anything outside 11 to 1 is not a ho, many not seeing the angle correctly on their fe will complain it is..
If you are alone in any plane and a 109f4 is headed your way, I will not ho
Unless the setup is non ho - see MNM where planes pass by head on all night as hoing is not tolerated - I expected it as it happens more than it doesn't
Eagler
You know, I couldn’t agree more with this post. Well said
I’ve always been of the opinion that the HO absolutely valid tactic when you significantly out gun a more maneuverable opponent. Although there are times Ill forgo a questionable shot to see how a fight will progress, I typically shoot whenever I can get a baddy in my gunsight.
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Fugi thanks..
In my ramblings I failed to see the OP was in MNM :)
In there with the short icons and fog and many turny planes, a non ho shot can become one as you or the other plane can flip on a dime...
Some of them are more like helicopters than fighter planes :)
Eagler
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It's not a HO if you're turning. It's only a HO if you both fly straight at each other. Where do you draw the line between front aspect and HO? 10 degrees off axis? 45 degrees off? Behind the 6/9 line? If you need a rule make it clear and explicit. The reason it's fuzzy now and confuses so many new people is because it's not a real prohibition in air combat. It's just limited in training for safety.
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:blank:
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This thread is getting comical hahaha 😆 😂 🤣 😅
As far as Monday Night Madness goes, the last I heard it is and has been curtiuos to not HO and request to not HO, but never knew it to be a standing rule!
As FLS posted, a true HEAD ON SHOT, from WWII Era, is 12 o'clock to 12 o'clock and 10° degrees or less cone angle...
Too Damn Funny 😁
TC
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From About 11 to 1 is a ho in my book..whether that is a straight ho or if you end up with that angle after your turn..
It's not allowed in mnm to the point you will be called out for it to the point you'll probably leave if you continue
Most only do it once purposely there as they didn't know any better
It is one of the unique things about MNM that makes it more enjoyable than an another hour in ma..
Not to mention fights are seconds away and not numerous minutes..
Eagler
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Was wondering what the Boards think of this? I was accused of HOing my opponent on the kill shot towards the end of the video. I was taught a Head On was when both fighters have a clear firing solution. My opponent claims that "he could have pulled for a shot" but decided not too.
In my opinion its clear I traded my energy advantage for a shot opportunity in a vertical angles fight. My opponent attempted to set up for a lead turn and did not evade the obvious shot opportunity I had gained.
Im posting two examples so no one feels they are being targeted(I feel like this is a set up I use very frequently in the MA) . I'm genuinely curious as to what the community thinks of these.
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00PK has and will always be a world class clown.
There was no head on, he got; out maneuvered, out flown, out classed, and utterly diddlying pwnd.
:salute
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Was wondering what the Boards think of this?
In the 00PK fight there's nothing technical to comment on, just the tragedy of an individual whose own ego limits him. There is no proper way to kill him to avoid a comment externalizing blame. Just kill him.
Fugitive was -e throughout and disadvantaged doubly so with gondolas. He mismanaged his flight-path on the ascent. No offence Fugitive, but you need to think not where things are but where they will be, like very fast drivers who look as far ahead as they can having already processed what corner they are in and what is soon to be.
The Shane fight is interesting. What he says is probably technically correct (although undesirable) as he had enough airspeed to do that but prefers to cross then go high for a minimum radius turn over the top. There is some risk in choosing that. Well anticipated, I'd have taken that shot too.
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As to HOs in MNM - I've been apparently accused of doing them...??? So I posted several typical sorties in MNM to show, that, ummm, maybe I don't... you can see them here: https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,407770.0.html
As for our TA/LA fight (in MA) the shot you took was a valid MA shot - I did roll over earlier than I was thinking (for the reasons nrshida said - I often cut it a bit closer,tho') giving you the belly shot you took. However, knowing it was you and we were looking for fun - as opposed to a quick kill - is why you got the comment, and it wasn't even as pointed as it would have been if you were a typical HO boi, lol.
I'm not against HOs per se, just an over-reliance/dependancy on them. And that's not you.
Was wondering what the Boards think of this? I was accused of HOing my opponent on the kill shot towards the end of the video. I was taught a Head On was when both fighters have a clear firing solution. My opponent claims that "he could have pulled for a shot" but decided not too.
In my opinion its clear I traded my energy advantage for a shot opportunity in a vertical angles fight. My opponent attempted to set up for a lead turn and did not evade the obvious shot opportunity I had gained.
Im posting two examples so no one feels they are being targeted(I feel like this is a set up I use very frequently in the MA) . I'm genuinely curious as to what the community thinks of these.
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Was wondering what the Boards think of this? I was accused of HOing my opponent on the kill shot towards the end of the video. I was taught a Head On was when both fighters have a clear firing solution. My opponent claims that "he could have pulled for a shot" but decided not too.
In my opinion its clear I traded my energy advantage for a shot opportunity in a vertical angles fight. My opponent attempted to set up for a lead turn and did not evade the obvious shot opportunity I had gained.
Im posting two examples so no one feels they are being targeted(I feel like this is a set up I use very frequently in the MA) . I'm genuinely curious as to what the community thinks of these.
Technically no, it was not a HO, but that is because I didntpull for the HO and make it a true one.
I entered the fight at a big disadvantage as shida said, but I dont mind that as long as I get a fight. Right away I knew I was against a good player and worked hard to try and equalize our positions. On the final merge I could have dumped my E and thrown the plane into position for a HO, but thats not how I want to win fights. I tried to save E by NOT pulling hard into a nose on position. I thought my opponent was going to fight like I do.....maneuver and force the other guy into a position where a shot is unavoidable from behind the 3-9 line. After all it was just the two of us having a fun fight, there was nothing on the line, neither one of us was going to die.
I guess it was too much to ask. I thought Sis would have pulled up and rolled over again to get me to burn more E avoiding him and then slide in for the shot I couldnt avoid. Yes I called HO because I thought you went for a lame, lazy shot instead of working towards a clean kill shot like I was trying to do. Its my own fault thinking others would play the game like I try to especially in a 1 vs 1 with nobody else in the sector.
Congrats on another kill Sis, I didnt even spill my gin and tonic :aok
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Everyone “HO’s”
It’s a very subjective thing considering the varied connections bring the possibility of differences of space and time for each player. You saw a Ho, they see your canopy or are off set from your nose.
Sometimes as mentioned above the bullets that got you were fired well before you got where you are now and then heard the sound which now feels like they are head on.
I’ve also heard most WWII pilots say in docus that they would fire on a plane anytime they had a shot. Plenty of air battles started with both side head on firing at each other.
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A very respectful exchange. :salute
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HOs happened in real WW 2 dogfights as well, so what is this fuss about it?
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HOs happened in real WW 2 dogfights as well, so what is this fuss about it?
The difference is in war you did what ever you had to to be the one who went home after the fight. Here it's a game.
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Congrats on another kill Sis, I didnt even spill my gin and tonic :aok
That would be unforgivable :cheers:
So the consensus seems to be “No-Ho”. The ol’ slide on a shot opportunity to prolong a fight is a whole other debate, but it is not something I’ll typically do the MA. I love a good fight as much as the next guy, but to me it’s the dance of death. Pre-determined rules and gentlemen’s agreements are for the DA, or atleast a 200 call out prior to the merge.
Another point Id add is how much I hate shooting from the 6 O’clock position, especially with the 109. In my fight with fug you may notice I blow my first shot horribly. Anyway as I said I just wanted the opinion of others. I’m no way am I trying to boast or showboat how horribly addicted I am to this game.
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The difference is in war you did what ever you had to to be the one who went home after the fight. Here it's a game.
So methods used in real war are forbidden in war game which claims to be realistic? I think we are again in a situation between virtual pilots and gamers.
Over and out, carry on.
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So methods used in real war are forbidden in war game which claims to be realistic? I think we are again in a situation between virtual pilots and gamers.
They aren't forbidden they just conflict with the motivation and reason a lot of people choose to play the game. I'd never fly like I do in AH in a real war. Well, not for long anyway :rofl
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I’m no way am I trying to boast or showboat how horribly addicted I am to this game.
Which specific bit sustains your addiction?
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Which specific bit sustains your addiction?
I'd say the VR has kept me hooked thus far coupled with my familiarity with AH's flight model. I don't think I could ever do a flight sim without VR again and if I'm gonna move to DCS or IL2 im gonna get a full pedal throttle and flight seat setup.
I still love AH's sandbox style, I really hope it gets a second wind or something to keep it relevant for the coming years.
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I doubt you'll like the flight model in iL2. DCS is nice for helicopters and jets and every switch working. It doesn't have the feel that AH3 does for propellor flight.
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The NO HO club goes all the way back to Air Warrior. The premise is that a novice might shoot down an ACE with the only shot in his trick bag when the ACE is supposed to win. Quelle horreur! Using this lame excuse to cry about a front quarter shot or a turning snap shot makes one an ACE, entitled to all the honors, medals and ribbons that entails. :aok
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The NO HO club goes all the way back to Air Warrior. The premise is that a novice might shoot down an ACE with the only shot in his trick bag when the ACE is supposed to win. Quelle horreur! Using this lame excuse to cry about a front quarter shot or a turning snap shot makes one an ACE, entitled to all the honors, medals and ribbons that entails. :aok
No, head on shots didnt register in AW, in AW it was just considered lame and not about ACM and the fight
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No, head on shots didnt register in AW, in AW it was just considered lame and not about ACM and the fight
I think you're both right. AW head-on shots occasionally worked, but the hit percentage was drastically reduced, so that it was just blind luck to get a kill that way.
Remember as well that you could fly right through the oncoming enemy plane!
- oldman
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I doubt you'll like the flight model in iL2. DCS is nice for helicopters and jets and every switch working. It doesn't have the feel that AH3 does for propellor flight.
I don’t fly either. But the videos I watched have a lameness, totally uninterested in how those sims run. Everywhere I read comparing AH FM to the others, AH tends to come out on top in FM
That said ya never see closeups of their terrains. Pretty from a distance?
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I think you're both right. AW head-on shots occasionally worked, but the hit percentage was drastically reduced, so that it was just blind luck to get a kill that way.
Remember as well that you could fly right through the oncoming enemy plane!
- oldman
HOs and ramming are rampant in AH. One squad relies on them, all of them will use it.
Therefore, go nose to nose with me and I’ll hold the fire button down as far as 2k out until the clueless dweeb passes, rams me, or dies, or I die. Usually I flash warning shots at 2,500. After that I’ll empty every round into them. Its true dweebery. In AW ya got shamed. In here they made it into an art form.
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I think you're both right. AW head-on shots occasionally worked, but the hit percentage was drastically reduced, so that it was just blind luck to get a kill that way.
Remember as well that you could fly right through the oncoming enemy plane!
- oldman
The hit bubble in earlier AW was based on a randomizer data. It was not a surface strike. I don’t recall deliberately changing HO shots, that may have been server side. I just fon’t remember doing it. It prolly took me a month of trying different data to find a honey spot of realism. This had to be done for a more realistic damage model. If it was weaker it would have been right before AW M/III. We tried to make HO not worth the effort, but didn’t kill it totally.
In RL, ya prolly died, in game world you could just re-up a new plane. And that is the unrealistic part. HOs and ramming did actually happen in RL as a desperate act, mostly by germans against buffs. But ya could only do it once. Lol
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Avoiding the HO is the best ACM maneuver you can make. It A. Sets you up for a merge tactic to gain the advantage of your opponent, B. Prevents you from dying 85% of the time.
(Made up Stat but probably close). C. Prevents a collision, D. Saves ammo, E. Helps you keep E better. And on and on. HOing should be a last ditch effort if absolutely have to in 1v1 or 1v2+ situation. Generally you are both closing your eyes praying at that point your bullets hit first. Many times, especially in large furball situations, it's impervious your shoot front quarter shots and planes flying above you but at your 12 that might not see you. The goal is to damage the enemy at all costs to help your teammates. Even in furballs, if you know the guy is going to be directly head on with you, it's best to duck and dip at all costs to avoid it while trying to set up an emmilman or extend depending on the situation. Sometimes doing an emmilman in a furball isn't the best choice as going up like that can make your vulnerable to pickers. The chances you will come out alive or un damaged are extremely slim if you try to HO. Best to dodge it come out alive and plan a different attack on the opponent.
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Depends on the planes and the numbers
Like planes and 1v1 or 1v2 and you can try t&b
Outnumbered or someone you know will just in a faster plane run gets it in the face especially if I'm in g2 with gonds
Eagler
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Would this be considered a Head On shot? and if so would the shot taken by my opponent in the first turn be considered a Head On shot as well? Just curious as to what people think.
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Would this be considered a Head On shot? and if so would the shot taken by my opponent in the first turn be considered a Head On shot as well? Just curious as to what people think.
No HOs detected. First shot was close. Your shot definitely wasn't.
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Would this be considered a Head On shot? and if so would the shot taken by my opponent in the first turn be considered a Head On shot as well? Just curious as to what people think.
Nah, I don't think either shot was a HO, there was no way he would have been able to get a solution there.
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I kind of figured considering I shot his Stab off, seems some have a flexible definition of the term.
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I kind of figured considering I shot his Stab off, seems some have a flexible definition of the term.
IMO, there is a difference between "could have" made the HO shot, but veered off for angle, and "no possible gun solution" in the crossing shot. If you are both coming around off the first immelman it's understood that you will both potentially have a HO pass. Generally this HO is avoided for respectful engagements depending on the situation and position of both players.
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I guess it all depends on what the definition of a HO is. To some its a straight nose to nose pass, others that rudder kick as you pass is a HO as well.
Then, to go deeper, you can add in "why do you play?". If your in the game to rack up kills and get all the chicks then any HO/shot is going to be a part of your arsenal because all you are after is another notch in your belt. For me, for the longest time I was in it for the fight. I hated firing in anything that was forward of the 3-9 line. I fought the fight to get my opponent into a position where I have the shot and all he had was a bucket full of my rounds. That was always the challenge for me. Now, not so much. Most fights are dodging picks and HOs or chasing someone to their ack. Ill take pretty much any shot these days as Im SURE they are going to take every shot.
Its not worth worrying about whether or not a shot is a HO, the other guy is going to shoot anyway.
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No. A Head-on is when both people have a firing solution. At no point in the merge, first loop, or second, did both have a firing solution.
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No. A Head-on is when both people have a firing solution. At no point in the merge, first loop, or second, did both have a firing solution.
I would have to agree with you. Thanks for everyone’s input, Good to know I’m not a HO
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I would have to agree with you. Thanks for everyone’s input, Good to know I’m not a HO
Well that is still up for debate, we were just discussing if you HAD HOed, not if you ARE a HO. :devil
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Since I usually fly a defensive, low, and slow plane, got the HO situations many times and generally against cannons. I try to avoid HO since almost every time I die. But there is nothing wrong with HO if you believe that’s the only way to survive an encounter. I just wonder if on the WW2 pilots avoid be in that situation?
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Since I usually fly a defensive, low, and slow plane, got the HO situations many times and generally against cannons. I try to avoid HO since almost every time I die. But there is nothing wrong with HO if you believe that’s the only way to survive an encounter. I just wonder if on the WW2 pilots avoid be in that situation?
Based on several shelf meters (or yards) WW2 literature, lots of autobiographies, some used HO frequently while there were those who avoided it at all costs. What comes to fly defensive and low, yes, überkites diving mach 3 from stratosphere lead to HOs pretty often.