General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Arlo on June 27, 2022, 07:22:56 PM
Title: The Biggest Lie of WWII? The Myth of the Norden Bombsight
Post by: Arlo on June 27, 2022, 07:22:56 PM
Title: Re: The Biggest Lie of WWII? The Myth of the Norden Bombsight
Post by: MiloMorai on June 27, 2022, 09:54:57 PM
Postwar analysis placed the overall accuracy of daylight precision attacks with the Norden at about the same level as radar bombing efforts.
The 8th Air Force put 31.8% of its bombs within 300 meters (1,000 ft) from an average altitude of 6,400 meters (21,000 ft), the 15th Air Force averaged 30.78% from 6,200 meters (20,500 ft), and the 20th Air Force against Japan averaged 31% from 5,000 meters (16,500 ft).
Unable to obtain the Norden, the RAF continued development of their own designs. Having moved to night bombing, where visual accuracy was difficult under even the best conditions, they introduced the much simpler Mark XIV bomb sight. This was designed not for accuracy above all, but ease of use in operational conditions. In testing in 1944, it was found to offer a CEP of 270 meters (890 ft), about what the Norden was offering at that time. This led to a debate within the RAF whether to use their own tachometric design, the Stabilized Automatic Bomb Sight, or use the Mk. XIV on future bombers. The Mk. XIV ultimately served into the 1960s while the SABS faded from service as the Lancaster and Lincoln bombers fitted with it were retired.
Title: Re: The Biggest Lie of WWII? The Myth of the Norden Bombsight
Post by: zack1234 on June 28, 2022, 09:41:45 AM
The Russians are using the Norden bomb sight in the Ukraine.
The yanks lost so many bombers crews they kept it secret from the public.
Albert Speer said the British tactic of carpet bombing was crippling the ability for the Germans to carry on the War.
Title: Re: The Biggest Lie of WWII? The Myth of the Norden Bombsight
Post by: dieter on June 28, 2022, 03:26:51 PM
While the bombsight may have been something phenomenal, the bombs were not machined to the proper tolerances for it to matter, and varying wind velocities with altitude are not considered. There was a Navy research paper published years ago that explained on the tolerances alone, the CEP, (Circular Error Probability) of a hit was around 1.5 miles for a bomber flying at 15,000 feet. This is why the 1,000 plane raids were mounted to destroy point targets. Fighters could hit the target much more reliably; but the aircrew often perished in the attempt. If we wanted to improve game accuracy, these kind of flaws should be considered probabilistically. It would certainly change the approach to attack and capture a field.
Dieter
Title: Re: The Biggest Lie of WWII? The Myth of the Norden Bombsight
Post by: Eagler on June 29, 2022, 05:50:28 AM
Brits thought our daylight bombing campaign was nuts, barbaric and put the lives of the aircrew at unwarranted risk
History has proven that to be true
Eagler
Title: Re: The Biggest Lie of WWII? The Myth of the Norden Bombsight
Post by: zack1234 on June 29, 2022, 08:24:48 AM
Air crew were more important than the German population.
They started the war….FACT
The US aircrew would have rather have stayed at home.
The mind set that states it was a war crime bombing German civilians is the same mindset that states George Floyd was a victim.
The Japanese WERE savages as well and deserved all they got.
Facts don't care about your feelings.
Title: Re: The Biggest Lie of WWII? The Myth of the Norden Bombsight
Post by: decoy on June 30, 2022, 08:13:23 AM
The yanks lost so many bombers crews they kept it secret from the public.
Albert Speer said the British tactic of carpet bombing was crippling the ability for the Germans to carry on the War.
Very pertinent point. My uncle Leo, who flew B24s in WWII said the lost almost as many B24s to pilot error as they did to enemy fire. He also said the flak was way more frightening than the fighters because you couldn't shoot back at the flak. He also said that by the time he got to England, the brass had put a stop to nose art on bombers because the crews would get superstitious about certain aircraft and they didn't want to fly the ones that they thought were jinxed.
Title: Re: The Biggest Lie of WWII? The Myth of the Norden Bombsight
Post by: Tig on June 30, 2022, 10:45:23 AM
Air crew were more important than the German population.
They started the war….FACT
The US aircrew would have rather have stayed at home.
The mind set that states it was a war crime bombing German civilians is the same mindset that states George Floyd was a victim.
The Japanese WERE savages as well and deserved all they got.
Facts don't care about your feelings.
Yep, it's hard facts sometimes with WW2. I wish Japan didn't end up getting nuked twice, I wish Germany didn't have to be bombed to hell and back and then suffer a crippled economy and Cold War tensions, but in reality, the Axis powers were extremely brutal to everyone and ultimately started the war, both in Europe and the Pacific. Facts are facts, and the facts aren't always nice.
Title: Re: The Biggest Lie of WWII? The Myth of the Norden Bombsight
Post by: TryHard on June 30, 2022, 11:54:04 AM
Yep, it's hard facts sometimes with WW2. I wish Japan didn't end up getting nuked twice, I wish Germany didn't have to be bombed to hell and back and then suffer a crippled economy and Cold War tensions, but in reality, the Axis powers were extremely brutal to everyone and ultimately started the war, both in Europe and the Pacific. Facts are facts, and the facts aren't always nice.
Crippled economy :rofl
You could not make it up :rofl
The German economy was not crippled the ability to manufacture was delayed.
By 1954 the economy was better than ever.
Bombing a factory usually just blows the roof off, heavy machines just get covered in broken glass.
Richard Overy - saw his lecture in Manchester University 20 years ago - economist who writes books
Origins of the 2nd world war AJP Taylor - the Allies started WWII - fact
Now don’t get angry read the book
Title: Re: The Biggest Lie of WWII? The Myth of the Norden Bombsight
Post by: MiloMorai on July 01, 2022, 10:27:58 AM
Bombing a factory usually just blows the roof off, heavy machines just get covered in broken glass.
That would be mainly by the Americans who used too small of bombs.
Title: Re: The Biggest Lie of WWII? The Myth of the Norden Bombsight
Post by: streakeagle on July 01, 2022, 10:56:43 AM
Bombing only day or night is not as good as bombing around the clock. Forcing the enemy to be alert and ready for attack at any time day or night is very effective at lowering the efficiency and morale of the enemy. It also ties up more resources and exhausts people from the stress.
Title: Re: The Biggest Lie of WWII? The Myth of the Norden Bombsight
Post by: zack1234 on July 01, 2022, 10:56:58 AM
Did you read said facts?
Title: Re: The Biggest Lie of WWII? The Myth of the Norden Bombsight
Post by: morfiend on July 01, 2022, 11:21:50 AM
Yep, it's hard facts sometimes with WW2. I wish Japan didn't end up getting nuked twice, I wish Germany didn't have to be bombed to hell and back and then suffer a crippled economy and Cold War tensions, but in reality, the Axis powers were extremely brutal to everyone and ultimately started the war, both in Europe and the Pacific. Facts are facts, and the facts aren't always nice.
When I was 19 I worked for a guy named Richard Richard Doerfert. German immigrant.
Richard was a kid in Nazi Germany and was in the Hitler Youth. He still had a very heavy German accent. He still admired Hitler and said he was a "great man". He used to go on about how much better things where in Germany and that history was written by the victors - implying that we didn't know the "real" history.
Title: Re: The Biggest Lie of WWII? The Myth of the Norden Bombsight
Post by: morfiend on July 02, 2022, 10:15:55 AM
He got awards off the Germans for advocating gassing Jews…fact
Ford told the US government he would sue them if they destroyed his factories
The US had to pass a law ensuring people spoke English as Kraut was the majority language at one point.
I knew a bloke who worked in Ford factory in the US in the 1930’s he despised the man.
Krupp, Thysen and IG Farben directors were giving back their assets in the 1950’s
Basically the Germans got away with causing x2 world wars.
Lets see how they behave when the German economy falls on its bellybutton because of dealing with the Russians :rofl
Don’t worry Biden Obama and Clinton will be fine
Blind Eye To Murder a book made from paper not wikidiot
Thank you for your consice answer, exactly what I was looking for. I actually read about it in a book but the name of said book escapes me. Might have been the cat who holds out it’s hat but I can’t be sure.
Title: Re: The Biggest Lie of WWII? The Myth of the Norden Bombsight
Post by: Tig on July 02, 2022, 10:26:04 AM
When I was 19 I worked for a guy named Richard Richard Doerfert. German immigrant.
Richard was a kid in Nazi Germany and was in the Hitler Youth. He still had a very heavy German accent. He still admired Hitler and said he was a "great man". He used to go on about how much better things where in Germany and that history was written by the victors - implying that we didn't know the "real" history.
Sure there's a lot of missing and convoluted history.
But that will never excuse the warcrimes the Nazis committed.
And along the same lines, nothing will excuse the warcrimes the US committed in the Philippines many years prior.
Warcrimes are warcrimes, and that's inexcusable.
Title: Re: The Biggest Lie of WWII? The Myth of the Norden Bombsight
Post by: zack1234 on July 02, 2022, 02:24:17 PM
Germany and Japanese culture were and are dysfunctional.
They came late on the scene and never adopted real Democracy.
Don’t you people think Democracy is fair it’s not.
It just better than killing millions of people like the Communists and Nazis did.
In Japan they employ 6 people what should take 1.
In Germany they get paid 3 times of as much to make overpriced products.
Said countries need to be kept busy or they will start their nonsense again
Spain, Italy , Ireland and Greece are lazy and bone idle and get paid to sit in their rear ends.
The IMF and the World bank pays for it.
America controls the IMF and the World bank.
You suckers think Western Capitalism is a free market economy :rofl
Lending money to people is hilarious when you cannot pay your mortgage they take your house off you and keep the money you have paid back. :rofl
Nice shiney car in the drive and not a pit to piss in.