General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Shuffler on August 11, 2022, 09:01:55 AM
Title: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: Shuffler on August 11, 2022, 09:01:55 AM
You have to own one for about 40 years to break even with a fossil fueled vehicle. Just one reason why.. https://apnews.com/article/technology-forests-myanmar-75df22e8d7431a6757ea4a426fbde94c
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: knorB on August 11, 2022, 09:08:40 AM
You have to own one for about 40 years to break even with a fossil fueled vehicle. Just one reason why.. https://apnews.com/article/technology-forests-myanmar-75df22e8d7431a6757ea4a426fbde94c
You have to own one for about 40 years to break even with a fossil fueled vehicle. Just one reason why.. https://apnews.com/article/technology-forests-myanmar-75df22e8d7431a6757ea4a426fbde94c
I just had a chance to read that article. It goes with what I've read before about how much mining and how destructive it is to mine for those rare Earth metals that make up these batteries.
I guess the mining and destruction of habitat is okay as long as it's not in our backyard.
And this associated press investigation is very credible. One of the most credible news organizations on the planet. The AP is a non-profit news organization and aggregator. Highly credible.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: guncrasher on August 11, 2022, 03:13:47 PM
I just had a chance to read that article. It goes with what I've read before about how much mining and how destructive it is to mine for those rare Earth metals that make up these batteries.
I guess the mining and destruction of habitat is okay as long as it's not in our backyard.
And this associated press investigation is very credible. One of the most credible news organizations on the planet. The AP is a non-profit news organization and aggregator. Highly credible.
now to valance things out read how wonderful and good for the environment oil is. perhaps also research other uses for rare earth's minerals. and maybe why this clothes at the store are made with 996 work ethics, while at same time they put news around buildings to stop people from jumping.
sometimes you guys remind me of joker who wrote born to kill on his helmet and wore a piece symbol on his jacket.
semp
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: -gg- on August 11, 2022, 03:18:22 PM
Well we're not talking about oil we're talking about electric vehicles. Why don't you start your own threat about oil?
And as far as I am aware, nobody is lying about oil and saying that it's great for the environment.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: guncrasher on August 11, 2022, 03:38:46 PM
Well we're not talking about oil we're talking about electric vehicles. Why don't you start your own threat about oil?
And as far as I am aware, nobody is lying about oil and saying that it's great for the environment.
actually the link talks about environmental damage. here are other uses.
Rare-earth elements (REEs) are used as components in high technology devices, including smart phones, digital cameras, computer hard disks, fluorescent and light-emitting-diode (LED) lights, flat screen televisions, computer monitors, and electronic displays
sorry if I confuse some of you with facts. I'll leave it up to you to find other uses in medicine and military use.
it's not cool what they do in Myanmar but it isn't exactly all ev' fault.
semp
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: Meatwad on August 11, 2022, 07:56:29 PM
Not much point in buying an electric car in this country. Electricity here comes from oil and gas.
Mind telling me how the resources are gathered to make the batteries? Not to mention how the batteries are made.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: morfiend on August 14, 2022, 12:16:58 PM
Looks like Canada is building 3 new plants,1 in Quebec and 2 in Ontario. The 2 in Ontario to be located in Kingston and in Windsor both right at the border or within minutes of it.
It wasn’t meant to answer your question,is your googler broke?
Canada produces more electricity than we can use so we export it to the US. Most of our production is hydroelectric and nukes,we’re lacking in transmission infrastructure but plans are to correct that as it’s a valuable market.
Most types of mining are destructive…..
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: guncrasher on August 14, 2022, 04:01:23 PM
I'm seeing 60.8% energy created by fossil fuels. Natural gas being the major contributer.
looks about right. but in the years to come it will be less and less.
palm springs now produces more electricity with less windmills. guess they're more efficient. which they would install more. and before somebody makes a stupid comment, they don't put those fans in place where the wind doesn't blow. after all they don't just make a hole in the ground where there's coal, light it and build a power plant on top.
semp
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: knorB on August 14, 2022, 04:18:54 PM
looks about right. but in the years to come it will be less and less.
palm springs now produces more electricity with less windmills. guess they're more efficient. which they would install more. and before somebody makes a stupid comment, they don't put those fans in place where the wind doesn't blow. after all they don't just make a hole in the ground where there's coal, light it and build a power plant on top.
semp
Just dont put em where there is a nice view and lots of wind... say off of Martha's Vineyard or Hyannis Port.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: guncrasher on August 14, 2022, 04:36:46 PM
Then possibly you should reconsider your previous statement.
you think by now you would know how sarcastic I am. on top of that I like to have fun. had you said the same thing to me I would have replied good one.
now I understand what anal retention means.
semp
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: knorB on August 14, 2022, 07:34:35 PM
Glad you learned something.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: guncrasher on August 14, 2022, 07:51:32 PM
yup thanks to you. most anal retentive personi know. keep going since you don't know what sarcasm means.
semp
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: Shuffler on August 15, 2022, 03:50:27 AM
Tree huggers will pollute the environment in the name of anti pollution. They will ignore human rights in the name of anti pollution. They will blindly destroy the earth in the name of anti polution.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: RotBaron on August 15, 2022, 04:33:22 AM
I guess the CA condor has learned how not to fly into them. Wow, smart bird!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: knorB on August 15, 2022, 06:21:42 AM
Doubtful, unless you've secretly developed perpetual motion.
Nope - almost absolutely guaranteed. Automotive engines, required to operate over wide speed ranges from idle to a few thousand RPMs, are terribly inefficient in design. Generators, on the other hand, can be designed to operate in a sustained manner over a very narrow RPM range (+/- .5% in the case of utility power generation). With very constrained operating conditions, the generators can be made much more efficient - or rather, they can be designed such that they operate exclusively in their most efficient operating range. Even a small gasoline generator will be more efficient in providing power than an automotive engine over its operating range. The trick is that an electric motor doesn't really care what RPM it is operating at as far as efficiency is concerned, and the speed of the motor is completely decoupled with the speed of the generator. Adding a battery does add a step with losses (charging and discharging the battery is not 100% efficient), but those losses are still small compared to the loss in efficiency from using an engine, and using utility-scale power generation is even more efficient than a small generator, making up for the losses. Additionally, the electric vehicle can use other tricks to save or regain energy, such as regenerative brakes which use the vehicle's kinetic energy to recharge the battery when slowing - this is relatively simple if the electric motors are at each wheel, since a generator is simply an electric motor being driven by the shaft.
Overall, providing a given amount of energy to the wheels generally takes less fuel if provided in the form of electricity as opposed to mechanically transmitted from a gasoline/diesel engine. The electrical system is of course more complex, but mechanically the vehicle can be much less complex, as the transmission and engine can be eliminated and an electric motor has very few moving parts.
Mike
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: knorB on August 16, 2022, 05:46:11 PM
huh is that why HD'd livewire gets better city range than highway? That appears to be a loss of efficiency at sustained higher rpm.
Which would cause a need to charge more ... needing more fossil fuels to produce.
Meanwhile, my ancient tech HD gets more than double the range of that fancy livewire.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: MiloMorai on August 16, 2022, 06:03:35 PM
Nope - almost absolutely guaranteed. Automotive engines, required to operate over wide speed ranges from idle to a few thousand RPMs, are terribly inefficient in design. Generators, on the other hand, can be designed to operate in a sustained manner over a very narrow RPM range (+/- .5% in the case of utility power generation). With very constrained operating conditions, the generators can be made much more efficient - or rather, they can be designed such that they operate exclusively in their most efficient operating range. Even a small gasoline generator will be more efficient in providing power than an automotive engine over its operating range. The trick is that an electric motor doesn't really care what RPM it is operating at as far as efficiency is concerned, and the speed of the motor is completely decoupled with the speed of the generator. Adding a battery does add a step with losses (charging and discharging the battery is not 100% efficient), but those losses are still small compared to the loss in efficiency from using an engine, and using utility-scale power generation is even more efficient than a small generator, making up for the losses. Additionally, the electric vehicle can use other tricks to save or regain energy, such as regenerative brakes which use the vehicle's kinetic energy to recharge the battery when slowing - this is relatively simple if the electric motors are at each wheel, since a generator is simply an electric motor being driven by the shaft.
Overall, providing a given amount of energy to the wheels generally takes less fuel if provided in the form of electricity as opposed to mechanically transmitted from a gasoline/diesel engine. The electrical system is of course more complex, but mechanically the vehicle can be much less complex, as the transmission and engine can be eliminated and an electric motor has very few moving parts.
Mike
Good post Mike but you are talking to Neanderthals.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: MiloMorai on August 17, 2022, 04:01:00 AM
Tree huggers will pollute the environment in the name of anti pollution. They will ignore human rights in the name of anti pollution. They will blindly destroy the earth in the name of anti polution.
Perfect example is Portland Oregon and San Francisco
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: DmonSlyr on August 18, 2022, 06:44:20 AM
Dodge is making a huge mistake. Apparently they don't understand their own target market. You think people who drive Hemi Chargers and Challengers are going to switch to electric. This will be a huge mistake.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: Chalenge on August 18, 2022, 10:39:32 AM
Dodge is making a huge mistake. Apparently they don't understand their own target market. You think people who drive Hemi Chargers and Challengers are going to switch to electric. This will be a huge mistake.
Is Dodge now spelled F-I-A-T? Or is it S-T-E-L-L-A-N-T-I-S?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: MiloMorai on August 18, 2022, 10:41:11 AM
Dodge is making a huge mistake. Apparently they don't understand their own target market. You think people who drive Hemi Chargers and Challengers are going to switch to electric. This will be a huge mistake.
What are they going to drive if there is only electric?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: morfiend on August 18, 2022, 11:09:22 AM
What are they going to drive if there is only electric?
Why a horse and buggy of course…. Hmm maybe all those buggy whip companies will come back.
My kid just bought an Ebike,it’s more bicycle than scooter as it’s easy to pedal and has pedal assist modes to increase range. It’s supposed to go 40 miles on a charge and up to 70 miles with assist.
If you put it in off-road mode it will go about 35 mph but that reduces range,it’s regulated to do 27 mph to conform with local laws when driven on road. That’s why it has an off road mode,I suspect he will use that mode and just press the magic button if he’s pulled over for some reason.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: Eagler on August 18, 2022, 12:20:23 PM
Hoping the streets in our cities look like those in India and say Vietnam...when everyone is riding bikes and super crowded mass transit...that should save the planet...
Private transportation will be the very rich only when all this all pans out
You will be happy in your driverless electric cab ride sharing with stinking ppl you don't know wearing your useless mask as it will be free with government subsidizing...oh and hurricanes floods earthquakes 110 heat index days will be a thing of the past lol
Eagler
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: Arlo on August 18, 2022, 01:01:20 PM
C’mon Arlo you know you’re a man unless you drive your 3/4 ton pickup to the corner store to pick up some milk….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ1glxX1BiQ
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: Eagler on August 18, 2022, 01:56:50 PM
Er you missed "not"
Some/many put their egos in their cars or trucks..
As I drive a 2013 4 cylinder Tacoma I am not in that crowd :)
Eagler
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: Shuffler on August 18, 2022, 03:44:15 PM
I drive a nice truck because I can. You can drive whatever you want. If you think people drive nice vehicles because of their egos.... I'd say your just jealous. Some folks just like nice things. I pull trailers from time to time and don't care to have a bunch of vehicles. My wife drives a SUV. My brother on the other hand has several vehicles. Two corvettes (2006 C6 and 2018 C7), a 1941 Willis with blown 502 (show car), a ZL1-1LE Hennessee 850 Camaro, and a 2015 Denali 2500. He has ordered a new C8 Vette and is about to order a new 2023 Denali.
Different strokes for different folks.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: knorB on August 18, 2022, 03:53:13 PM
Discovered no matter how nice the car is, be it a hotrod, a benz, a vett... After owning it for six months ?
It is just a car...
Pretty much. :aok
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: Eagler on August 19, 2022, 07:18:28 AM
https://youtu.be/TUx8yIlKVpU
Shows the other side of the electric car industry ...
Eagler
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: knorB on August 19, 2022, 07:33:16 AM
People confuse critical with anti when it comes to E-vehicles. For now, they have a limited best use case. I expect that to expand when battery, electric production/distribution, and recharging tech improves.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: Shuffler on August 19, 2022, 09:41:10 AM
All vehicles are just vehicles. It is just how comfortable you want to be driving or hauling from point A to point B.
Someone above said something about going to the store.... you still do that?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: morfiend on August 19, 2022, 10:31:11 AM
Some/many put their egos in their cars or trucks..
As I drive a 2013 4 cylinder Tacoma I am not in that crowd :)
Eagler
Yes I did!
I drive a 15 yo CRV,it doesn’t quite have 100k miles on it and runs like a champ. Even though I live in the rust belt you won’t find a lick of rust on it and I usually have it detailed twice a year,used to do that myself but it’s just easier to pay someone for it these days.
I was going to get a PHEV but they’ve jacked the prices up on those types to where it’s just not worth it,as an example a RAV4 PHEV cost more than a Lexus NX class,that’s just crazy.MSRP up here for the RAV is about 60k,they are asking mid 70’s and the wait times are close to 6 months.
I do plan on getting a new to me vehicle,won’t buy a NEW car as that just throwing money away and there’s plenty of off lease vehicles/never sold used that are between 2 and 4 yo. That said I have other fish to fry atm.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: The Fugitive on August 19, 2022, 10:49:56 AM
All vehicles are just vehicles. It is just how comfortable you want to be driving or hauling from point A to point B.
Someone above said something about going to the store.... you still do that?
I do, perfect excuse to jump into my 99 Mustang and go for a ride!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: Shuffler on August 19, 2022, 10:55:10 AM
My old truck, which I still have, has over 225K on it. A 2005 chevy 2500HD crewcab diesel. My new truck, which I may drive till I am gone, is a GMC 22 2500HD diesel Denali. I drive vehicles for quite a long time.
All anyone needs is whatever does the work they require. Many city folks do not even own a vehicle.
Eagler.... you describe your ride as if it is just so so.... but I guarantee you there are people out there who envy you because you have a truck. It is what it is.
If I have a BBQ at my home, I don't care what you pull up in, as long as it is not on fire.
:rofl :aok
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: GasTeddy on August 19, 2022, 03:09:45 PM
My old truck, which I still have, has over 225K on it. A 2005 chevy 2500HD crewcab diesel. My new truck, which I may drive till I am gone, is a GMC 22 2500HD diesel Denali. I drive vehicles for quite a long time.
I'm the same what comes to use vehicles bit longer. Mine is 2004 Jeep Liberty (Cherokee here in Europe) w/ 2.8 CRD. Just 166K in odometer. Chiptune, 2 inch lift kit (H&R springs), bigger wheels and tires, free flow sport exhaust. Runs perfectly and not planning to give it up. Same with bike, 2002 Yamaha Fjr.
Both have some scratches and itches during all these years, but also they have become more like family members than just objects.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: Eagler on August 19, 2022, 03:17:33 PM
Shuffler my ride is just so so at best ..but it does the job I need it too perfectly
It's as basic as them come ... doesn't even have intermittent wipers - which wasn't planned as I thought that was a basic feature like a/c - which my wife never lets me forget :)
Keeps my right pinkie busy when it is spitting rain...
:cheers:
Eagler
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: bj229r on August 19, 2022, 04:01:48 PM
I dare say very few folks would have an electric as their primary vehicle....which means they are spending $60 for their SECONdary vehicle. Anyone who can do THAT doesn't need a subsidy from me
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: Shuffler on August 19, 2022, 04:31:21 PM
Shuffler my ride is just so so at best ..but it does the job I need it too perfectly
It's as basic as them come ... doesn't even have intermittent wipers - which wasn't planned as I thought that was a basic feature like a/c - which my wife never lets me forget :)
Keeps my right pinkie busy when it is spitting rain...
:cheers:
Eagler
I have to say... I thught those were standard on most everything too. Still gets you where you want to go and back. Even though you have one little pinky bigger than the other. :)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: Shuffler on August 19, 2022, 04:34:05 PM
They recently built a natural gas power plant in my area. They are starting construction on another. Wonder what that portends?
Probably means the green push will shrivel up and die again like it did the other time when cash for clunckers was passed out like it was a good idea...
When things had to be passed to see what's in them like today..
Eagler
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: bj229r on August 21, 2022, 07:01:44 AM
We are the Saudi Arabia of natural gas. It's hard to transport overseas, best we use it here. For those concerned about 'climate change', NG's expanded use in power plants over coal caused our CO2 emissions to drop far fast than the Climate Accord Obama signed onto, required. I've seen some metropolitan area where you can gas up your NG car, pretty cool
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles?
Post by: Mano on August 23, 2022, 09:32:48 AM
The Electric Viking lives in Australia and has another point of view. Did he present fudged data? Did he present data that is spot on? Might be worth your time to research this topic if your are interested in seeing your favorite legacy carmaker survive the transition. If car sales do not indicate what is going to happen with internal combustion vehicles then exactly what does?