Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Max on August 27, 2022, 04:40:58 PM
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Does one exist anywhere?
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That would be amazin
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I don't know of any. It's likely somewhere between 220-280 for most WW2 fighters. Once you start turning you're slowing down so then you're somewhere in your maneuvering speed range, you can't stay at corner speed. The exception being when you trade altitude for speed to make up for the drag.
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"BadBoy" use to make up those charts. You can still find them for some of the planes if you search well.
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The energy maneuverability graphs were for single aircraft but they're useful if you can find them. Badboy said HTC can't post them here any more but they may still be on other sites.
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I don't know of any. It's likely somewhere between 220-280 for most WW2 fighters. Once you start turning you're slowing down so then you're somewhere in your maneuvering speed range, you can't stay at corner speed. The exception being when you trade altitude for speed to make up for the drag.
That's about where the Spit 16 likes to turn, pretty sure the other Spits have a slightly lower corner speed.
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Interesting thread
https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,379264.0.html (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,379264.0.html)
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Multiply the clean stall speed by 2.44, this will give you the CV given the in game 6g blackout.
So a plane with a 100mph clean stall speed will have a 244 mph corner speed,above that and you will be able to pull into a black out,below that and you’ll stall a wing before blacking out.
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Does one exist anywhere?
Suggest PMing Badboy and ask for reference material. In the meantime, Morf’s formula is a good basis to work off of. Knowledge of your favorite ride’s corner velocity is a valuable skill to have in your tool kit.
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Suggest PMing Badboy and ask for reference material. In the meantime, Morf’s formula is a good basis to work off of.
Leon (Badboy/ Badz), told me awhile back that he had lost a lot of the older em diagrams/ charts he created when he took his server / site down...not sure how much he plays these days...you still can check with him via PM
Knowledge of your favorite ride’s corner velocity is a valuable skill to have in your tool kit.
I think it's valuable knowledge to know the corner speed of all the different aircraft types!
I think it is a valuable asset and skill to have in your abilities as long as you know how to use your aircraft's corner speed to your advantage while at the same time using your opponents corner speed of their aircraft, against them
This takes several years to completely get and learn how to use properly.... only the player committed to learning everything they can and continously testing, training and practicing will get you to the ultimate goal
So it's up to the trainee, student , player to decide how much they really want to become the best they can
Hope this helps
TC
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Multiply the clean stall speed by 2.44, this will give you the CV given the in game 6g blackout.
So a plane with a 100mph clean stall speed will have a 244 mph corner speed,above that and you will be able to pull into a black out,below that and you’ll stall a wing before blacking out.
What's the significance of the 2.44? Where does that figure come from?
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What's the significance of the 2.44? Where does that figure come from?
It’s the square root of 6. We use 6 as the g limit in game as that’s the g load that blacks you out.
If you are above corner speed you can pull enough “g” to black out below corner and you become G limited and will stall before you can pull enough G to black out. Planes like the zero have a low CV so they can make a max G turn at much lower speeds than say a P51.
That said remember no WW2 plane can maintain Cv for very long so you must descend to keep the speed up. Players often confuse radious and rate,radious is how large or small the turn circle is and rate is how many degrees per second a plane turns. Planes with a high turn rate can often catch a plane with a lower rate but a small radious,they just need to stay turning which doesn’t happen very often.
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Hi
Here is some flight test data produced by my old Bootstrap calculator that was going to be used as part of the classroom content for the AH Training Academy.
It is still current and what I use myself for quick reference... and I think, never before seen.
(https://i.imgur.com/EbT0tzx.jpg)
The bootstrap calculator used that data to produce a variety of one circle and two circle images that made the data easier to interpret like the one below:
(https://i.imgur.com/0Dc2JYM.jpg)
The EM diagrams contained all of the information found in the Bootstrap calculator, but all on one diagram like this one for the P38 with the full range of flaps shown below:
(https://i.imgur.com/rZ9V18f.jpg)
However, the EM diagrams were better for doing dissimilar aircraft comparisons like this one of the P51D and 109G6 overlay. Not only can you see the best sustained and instantaneous turn rate comparisons, but you can compare energy retention and top speeds all on the same chart as shown below:
(https://i.imgur.com/5Mkznug.jpg)
Hope that helps
Badboy
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Thank you Badboy! Much appreciated
<S> & cheers 🍻
TC
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Thanks for sharing those Badboy....great info!!
<S>
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Your welcome...
There are some interesting observations to note in that data.
For example if you look at the first aircraft on the list, the Yak-3 you notice by looking at the turn rate at corner column that any use of flaps degrades the turn rate significantly, but does help to reduce the turn radius. However some aircraft benefit from the use of flaps, but only at one particular setting, for example the 109K4 with one notch of flaps suffers a big drop in rate, but at 5 notches it turns almost as well as it does without flaps and its turn radius in that configuration is smaller than many of its late war adversaries. This makes it a very dangerous aircraft to fight at very low speed, where it excels in maneuvers such as the flat scissors and with its very powerful engine it dominates in the rolling scissors.
Each item of that data has profound implications for each dissimilar aircraft match up, that I could discuss for weeks, but probably the biggest thing to take away is that now you know the corner velocity for each aircraft, I'm going to point out that there is another far more valuable data point.
Compare the F4U4, F4U1 and F4U1A, the best instantaneous turn rate is achieved by the F4U1 at 36.1 degrees per second at 3 notches of flaps. However both of the other F4U's will out turn it with ease in a protracted engagement, and that is key to understanding how to read this data.
What I'm about to tell you is that the corner velocity, and more importantly the instantaneous turn rate at corner, is not what you should focus on, there is something much more important to take away.
The problem is that the turn rate you get at corner (instantaneous turn rate) is only fleeting. It just doesn't last long. Many good F4U pilots know that and they enter an engagement with the intention of using that very high rate to get an early guns opportunity for a quick kill. That also depends on knowing how to exploit that initial high rate with proper BFM, but that's it. After the first few seconds of the fight the high turn rate at corner is no longer of benefit.
When I enter an engagement against one of the F4Us I know that I just need to survive the first turn without giving away a snap shot. After that you need to look to the sustained turn rate column. Here you notice that the F4U1 has a best sustained turn rate of 19.6dps at 3 notches of flaps and below. The F4U1A beats that with 20.3dps at 2 notches, which is better but not a decisive advantage, while the F4U4 achieves 21.9dps at 2 notches which is a 2.3dps sustained turn rate advantage which is decisive. For real fighter pilots anything over a 2dps advantage is considered decisive.
The point is that a study of sustained turn rates and associated flap settings is more important for victory in a prolonged engagement. The instantaneous values are more important for brief turning engagements, and both are irrelevant for high speed attacks where you hardly turn at all.
Some of the questions I ask myself when I start an engagement is something like this.
- Do I have a sustained turning advantage?
- If so, can I survive my opponents instantaneous turn and force him to get slow where I can win?
- Do I have a radius advantage so I can go one circle or do I need to stay two circle?
- If I don't have a sustained advantage do I have an instantaneous advantage to try for a quick kill?
- If I don't have a sustained or instantaneous advantage do I have an energy advantage to avoid turning and get some free gun passes?
- If none of those options look favorable, have I had any clues about my opponents ability? If his actions suggest knowledge or skill, I consider exit options such as top speed, location of friendlies and ack etc. If his actions suggest otherwise, fight anyway because most of this is only critical against good pilots.
Of course you don't actually think of each item, when you have been doing it long enough you just know which one is best right away. That's why real pilots train, so they don't have to waste time thinking at critical moments.
However, the key takeaway is that it all begins with questions about the aircraft performance, the sustained and instantaneous values. Real pilots have to learn that stuff in ground school and will know their adversary as well as enemy intelligence permits. If you want to do well in AH, you will be well rewarded by a careful study of the performance data.
An important caveat is that all of the data only applies to the aircraft configurations listed. You might think you have an advantage, but if you are heavy with fuel and your opponent is light, it may well be reversed. That's why for things like scenarios where you often need to engage heavy, I obtain further flight test data.
Hopefully that will help you use the information to best advantage.
Any questions?
Badboy
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Thank you Badboy! Much appreciated
Hi TC
Nice to see you on the boards buddy.
You ever get into the MA?
Badboy
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Suggest PMing Badboy and ask for reference material.
Hi Puma
You still fly much? Haven't seen you online for ages.
I appreciated the help with two ship tactical formations a while ago, if you ever want to wing up and share some more of your knowledge let me know.
Kind regards
Badboy
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Hi TC
Nice to see you on the boards buddy.
You ever get into the MA?
Badboy
I've been trying to make an effort at it this week.. trying to knock the rust off (a LOT OF RUST)...
I flew in the Monday Night Madness this past Monday for a couple hours and then went to the MA for another 5 hours straight...I was feeling the pain 30 minutes to an hour in from the start but just wanted to really work on it and pushed myself...pain be damned 🙃
Then turned around and played Tuesday night in the MA for another 5 and a half hours until I just couldn't take it anymore and I was going to try practicing every day or night all week to try and be able to compete in the Koth event this coming Saturday night...
I pushed myself to hard and now am trying to recuperate and I am still recovering...but I will be ready come Saturday night for the event 🙃 😅
I hope you and your family are doing well!
TC / Johnny
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Hi Puma
You still fly much? Haven't seen you online for ages.
I appreciated the help with two ship tactical formations a while ago, if you ever want to wing up and share some more of your knowledge let me know.
Kind regards
Badboy
Hiya Badboy!
I’m usually on for a couple of hours starting about 1500L here, which if my higher math in public is right, is about 2300L local there. I’d be more than happy to do some more two ship with you. Just let me know what day and time works best for you. Earlier in the day for me is doable so you aren’t up so late. I know beauty sleep is important. 😆
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Thanks for the Ps charts Badboy. Great information! You also mentioned BFM use. It is a critical skill set for any dogfighter. Without that in the pilot’s skill set, the best ride in the game is just that, a ride. A common say in the real world of fighters is : “Hamburger is hamburger, regardless of what it’s wrapped in”. :salute
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FYI: i recompiled my comparison app and have provided a link to the files. Theres no installer per se - just extract and run. Requires .Net 4.X IIRC?? Try it and see - Windoze might have it installed already.
Not as fancy as Badbay's...
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AtXKxfmHT9C2os0ry5LAuT_-b8WJLg?e=enstudmuffinu
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for the nerds - here's the source:
https://github.com/petegee/AHPerformanceComparison