General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Rich46yo on October 17, 2022, 04:34:34 PM
Title: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Rich46yo on October 17, 2022, 04:34:34 PM
Can any of you history buffs lay some Soviet aviation history on me from WW2?
Since retiring most of my study has been on the Pacific theater and I know little about Soviet aviation operations, make up, aircraft, its a weak spot in my study of WW2. Maybe recommend a few books?
Thanks. Do any of you model Soviet planes? picture's would be appreciated.
I know we've had pretty good students of the war in times past here. :salute
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: perdue3 on October 17, 2022, 06:09:05 PM
I have a few models of VVS airplanes. Recently, I have been diving hard into Bolt Action (tabletop game) and have a Red Army going. I will share pics one day of my work.
The most recent book I read on the VVS was "Red Phoenix Rising" by Hardesty and Grinberg. It did a great job of solidifying or challenging common theses on VVS operations initially delivered by American and German sources. It is fairly comprehensive, but not all that esoteric. A good general overview of recent scholarship.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Devil 505 on October 17, 2022, 07:00:11 PM
I don't have any specific sources to recommend, but if you see any that claim that the P-39, or Yak-9T were meant for ground attack - throw them away!
They both used 37mm cannons with high explosive rounds meant for taking down aircraft.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Vulcan on October 17, 2022, 08:00:49 PM
I don't have any specific sources to recommend, but if you see any that claim that the P-39, or Yak-9T were meant for ground attack - throw them away!
They both used 37mm cannons with high explosive rounds meant for taking down aircraft.
Nope. Both could fire either HE or AP, though the M4 in the P39 was typically used with HE. The 9T in game uses AP, and I'm fairly sure the P-39 uses HE. In WW2 the 9T was used in the ground attack role (including against shipping).
The 9T in game can be quite effective against armour if you can master shots down through the top of the turret. The 9T offers and advantage over aircraft like the IL2 in that the gun is centerline which makes aiming easier, it has a better view, and you can quickly switch roles should enemy fighters show up.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Devil 505 on October 17, 2022, 08:39:38 PM
I'm referring to their use historically, not in game.
Yes, they could be used for ground attack, but they were not designed with that mission in mind or typically used in that manner. That's my point.
Just trying to dispel the myth of the "T stand for Tank buster" you often see in reference to the Yak-9T before Rich inevitably finds that often stated claim.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Arlo on October 17, 2022, 09:22:55 PM
Various sources differ in opinion. As such, I try taking them all with a grain of salt. Never the less ... here's something:
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Vulcan on October 17, 2022, 10:01:27 PM
Various sources differ in opinion. As such, I try taking them all with a grain of salt. Never the less ... here's something:
Sorry but that dude gets stuff wrong all the time. His choices of footage are especially laughable in some videos. I've actually told Youtube to not recommend anything from his channels.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Vulcan on October 18, 2022, 02:05:23 AM
^ yup, even the cover picture isn't a 9T, looks like a 3.
edit: Oh hell a little googling shows it's a modern rebuild Yak-3.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: perdue3 on October 18, 2022, 05:58:42 AM
Agreed, that channel sucks.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Greebo on October 18, 2022, 07:28:13 AM
I've read quite a few books relating to Soviet aviation for skinning research, but most of these relate to specific battles, aircraft types or manufacturers. The best overall history of the VVS in WW2 I have read is "Soviet Air Power in WW2" by Yefim Gordon. It covers Soviet air forces' unit organisation and history, as well as all the various home-produced and lend lease aircraft they flew. Yefim Gordon also co-wrote "Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War". However this is much like the first book, just without the lend-lease and air force organisation stuff.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Arlo on October 18, 2022, 07:19:56 PM
Sorry but that dude gets stuff wrong all the time. His choices of footage are especially laughable in some videos. I've actually told Youtube to not recommend anything from his channels.
Disclaimer by the author: As images and footage of actual events are not always available, Dark Skies sometimes utilizes similar historical images and footage for dramatic effect and soundtracks for emotional impact. We do our best to keep it as visually accurate as possible.
All content on Dark Skies is researched, produced, and presented in historical context for educational purposes. We are history enthusiasts and are not always experts in some areas, so please don't hesitate to reach out to us with corrections, additional information, or new ideas.
This is a cop out. As a professional historian, I hear and read this all the time. What little research is done, is poor.
But, it is all good, you obviously adore the channel. And that is okay. I am just saying, it is a trash heap and that is my opinion.
Projection of adoration indicates that your opinion, regarding my use of it in this case, has a degree of emotional drive. I indicated no such thing and merely offered it as an easily accessed source. As I've said various sources differ in opinion (and I'll be glad to add accuracy). As such, I try taking them all with a grain of salt. No attempt was made to bruise the professional sensibilities of a fellow historian. :cheers:
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Devil 505 on October 18, 2022, 07:44:31 PM
Disclaimer by the author: As images and footage of actual events are not always available, Dark Skies sometimes utilizes similar historical images and footage for dramatic effect and soundtracks for emotional impact. We do our best to keep it as visually accurate as possible.
All content on Dark Skies is researched, produced, and presented in historical context for educational purposes. We are history enthusiasts and are not always experts in some areas, so please don't hesitate to reach out to us with corrections, additional information, or new ideas.
Sorry, but that disclaimer is BS when he uses footage of a completely different aircraft than what's being discussed. I can overlook using a Yak-3 in the Yak-9 video since they're both Yaks that are similar looking, but I won't forgive using footage of totally unrelated material to the subject at hand. (I wish I could remember the specific instance that set me off a few months ago but it was essentially the equivalent of showing a P-51 on screen while the narration is going over the demands of landing on an aircraft carrier) Not even close to relevant. It demonstrates a lack of knowledge on the subject matter and a lack of care in producing a video of any educational value. If he misses the basic stuff, what else did he get wrong?
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: perdue3 on October 18, 2022, 07:46:55 PM
Projection of adoration indicates that your opinion, regarding my use of it in this case, has a degree of emotional drive. I indicated no such thing and merely offered it as an easily accessed source. As I've said various sources differ in opinion (and I'll be glad to add accuracy). As such, I try taking them all with a grain of salt. No attempt was made to bruise the professional sensibilities of a fellow historian. :cheers:
You have spammed their videos all over this board, I interpret that as adoration. If I am wrong, I beg your forgiveness.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Arlo on October 18, 2022, 07:50:21 PM
Sorry, but that disclaimer is BS when he uses footage of a completely different aircraft than what's being discussed. I can overlook using a Yak-3 in the Yak-9 video since they're both Yaks that are similar looking, but I won't forgive using footage of totally unrelated material to the subject at hand. (I wish I could remember the specific instance that set me off a few months ago but it was essentially the equivalent of showing a P-51 on screen while the narration is going over the demands of landing on an aircraft carrier) Not even close to relevant. It demonstrates a lack of knowledge on the subject matter and a lack of care in producing a video of any educational value. If he misses the basic stuff, what else did he get wrong?
I often make numerous nitpicks on the same thing I see on the Smithsonian Channel (and it pained me to see their name associated with such) but my loving wife gently assured me that when my material is finally shown on that channel perhaps I'll be able to correct their gross incompetency. That's usually a hint that we should change the channel. :)
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Arlo on October 18, 2022, 07:50:58 PM
Cool, stop spreading that garbage if you take it with a grain of salt. It is not horrible for a very questionable overview, but it is drivel for the aviation history buff, which I consider most people on the board to be.
Or keep spamming it. :shrug
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Arlo on October 18, 2022, 08:04:33 PM
Thanks for your opinion/recommendation. I'm looking forward to you 'spamming' us with superior material. Seriously. I'm sure most all of us will appreciate it. I know I will. :)
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: perdue3 on October 18, 2022, 08:22:43 PM
Thanks for your opinion/recommendation. I'm looking forward to you 'spamming' us with superior material. Seriously. I'm sure most all of us will appreciate it. I know I will. :)
You are right, I won't be providing superior material. Keep doing you, broseph :aok
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Arlo on October 18, 2022, 08:44:13 PM
You are right, I won't be providing superior material. Keep doing you, broseph :aok
Broseph? Huh. Youth these days. :aok
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: bj229r on October 19, 2022, 07:27:28 AM
I think 25 years ago most of the folks who played this game were like me---kids of the WW2 generation, mebbe sons of WW2 pilots. Younger folks don't see the fascination we saw with it
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: perdue3 on October 19, 2022, 02:56:18 PM
My college days are more recent than yours (though my age is likely older than you). The word has no real meaning to me. *ShruG* Your interaction with me, at this point, seems fruitless.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Eagler on October 19, 2022, 03:03:58 PM
My college days are more recent than yours (though my age is likely older than you). The word has no real meaning to me. *ShruG* Your interaction with me, at this point, seems fruitless.
As is the majority of yours but that doesn't slow you down
Eagler
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Arlo on October 19, 2022, 03:05:36 PM
As is the majority of yours but that doesn't slow you down
Feel free to butt in and show me your feelings. :)
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: perdue3 on October 19, 2022, 03:09:45 PM
I don't really care. I was just commenting on how poor the content was, scholastically. Keep posting videos from the channel, free to do what you want, of course. :cheers:
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Arlo on October 19, 2022, 03:13:15 PM
I don't really care. I was just commenting on how poor the content was, scholastically. Keep posting videos from the channel, free to do what you want, of course. :cheers:
1. Thanks for your permission but not needed.
2. Not caring and just commenting on how you don't like the content is fine, I suppose. Endlessly droning on about it gets kinda old.
Take care and thank you for your professionalism. :)
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Brooke on October 19, 2022, 03:33:14 PM
A great book on the P-39 use by the Soviets. It also gives a good idea of how they used fighters in general:
Attack of the Airacobras: Soviet Aces, American P-39s, and the Air War Against Germany, by D. F. Loza
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: perdue3 on October 19, 2022, 03:42:13 PM
2. Not caring and just commenting on how you don't like the content is fine, I suppose. Endlessly droning on about it gets kinda old.
Take care and thank you for your professionalism. :)
I said you are free to post whatever you want, of course. As in, obviously you will keep posting because you have that right. Wasn't me giving you permission, don't play that card.
And, if you are who I think you are, I'm sure you'd be a loud voice if someone posted some rubbish book by a "history fan" or whatever they claim to be with no context. Imagine, someone just posting the cover of some Kilmeade or O'Reilly book. I'd hope, being a fellow historian, you'd critique it accordingly. If not, I again, beg your forgiveness.
I'm down with mastering the literature, but we have to define what constitutes as scholarly literature first.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Arlo on October 19, 2022, 04:05:03 PM
And, if you are who I think you are, I'm sure you'd be a loud voice if someone posted some rubbish book by a "history fan" or whatever they claim to be with no context. Imagine, someone just posting the cover of some Kilmeade or O'Reilly book. I'd hope, being a fellow historian, you'd critique it accordingly. If not, I again, beg your forgiveness.
Who I am is someone very much less emotional about my opinions on such things. It came with age and experience. There's not enough years left in my life to waste time in that way. If our positions were reversed, in this instance, and I had issue I would have brought up the specifics I found that were questionable and not held on to make my critique about you nor would I have gone beyond my critique to make a generalized attack on the source (that was more than the clip/images used). It wasn't a peer reviewed paper nor did it seem to pretend such.
Yes, I noticed it included a description of the Yak9-T in both design and use that ran contrary to your opinion. Such wasn't thrown at you as a 'you're wrong and this proves it.' There's room for dissent (as there always in amongst historians be they old or young, amateur or professional) and such need not be made emotional or aimed at someone personally.
So, don't beg me for forgiveness. Just approach it as professionally as you claim to be capable of doing.
(I can't go on like this. If neither of us, or even one of us, aren't interested in academically picking apart the source with even some room for concessions then this has become the waste of time I mentioned earlier.)
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: perdue3 on October 19, 2022, 04:09:36 PM
Who I am is someone very much less emotional about my opinions on such things. It came with age and experience. There's not enough years left in my life to waste time in that way. If our positions were reversed, in this instance, and I had issue I would have brought up the specifics I found that were questionable and not held on to make my critique about you nor would I have gone beyond my critique to make a generalized attack on the source (that was more than the clip/images used). It wasn't a peer reviewed paper nor did it seem to pretend such.
Yes, I noticed it included a description of the Yak9-T in both design and use that ran contrary to your opinion. Such wasn't thrown at you as a 'you're wrong and this proves it.' There's room for dissent (as there always in amongst historians be they old or young, amateur or professional) and such need not be made emotional or aimed at someone personally.
So, don't beg me for forgiveness. Just approach it as professionally as you claim to be capable of doing.
(I can't go on like this. If neither of us, or even one of us, aren't interested in academically picking apart the source with even some room for concessions then this has become the waste of time I mentioned earlier.)
If you can't go on like this, then stop. I am not trying to waste your time, merely responding to you in kind. I did not watch the Yak video, just piggybacked on what others said about the channel when they critiqued it. The Pup one, on the other hand, I watched and mildly critiqued.
It is not an academic source, we both agree on that fact. That is where it can end. If not, I am happy to continue beating this horse.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Arlo on October 19, 2022, 04:12:51 PM
If you like. I take your replies to mean you are interested in chatting.
The other day, I read a very long post on a facebook page where the guy claimed opinion and rhetoric as fact regarding NC History. I called him out and after a while, he claimed to just be a "history buff." Essentially, that same disclaimer. Just because you are not an academic source does not mean you get to pass off things as fact or even develop ideas that are not at least loosely backed by evidence. Anyway, that is all I was doing with this particular post/video. Just adding my opinion about the channel, which is that for someone like me, it is not helpful. But, for the basic aviation fan, one who may not be as enthused as others, it is a good place to find interest. Perhaps a gateway source, if you will.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Arlo on October 19, 2022, 04:25:54 PM
If you like. I take your replies to mean you are interested in chatting.
Sure. PM me. We can trade anecdotes, if you want. If I don't reply right away it'll be because I was lucky enough to have real life get in the way or I might have died (always a possibility).
:)
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: perdue3 on October 19, 2022, 04:32:28 PM
Sure. PM me. We can trade anecdotes, if you want. If I don't reply right away it'll be because I was lucky enough to have real life get in the way or I might have died (always a possibility).
:)
No need to be condescending, sir. :aok
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Arlo on October 19, 2022, 04:34:40 PM
I understand though I wasn't resorting to such. :)
Seemed that way with the "life" comment.
Anyway, the channel in question would be so much better if he/they would take the time to find footage of the aircraft or event they are showing. That would be a great place to start and a great way to become a more credible source. Then, the writing must improve. It is amateur (as they admitted) and the pronunciation comes off as people who know almost nothing about aviation. For me, that is a huge red flag, because I want to be challenged. I understand that for many people it is still quite informative. I would think that many people on this board would share my feeling, however.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Arlo on October 19, 2022, 04:43:52 PM
A reminder of their disclaimer on their 'about' page:
"As images and footage of actual events are not always available, Dark Skies sometimes utilizes similar historical images and footage for dramatic effect and soundtracks for emotional impact. We do our best to keep it as visually accurate as possible.
All content on Dark Skies is researched, produced, and presented in historical context for educational purposes. We are history enthusiasts and are not always experts in some areas, so please don't hesitate to reach out to us with corrections, additional information, or new ideas."
They are apparently quite open to receiving the material from others that they could not find on their own. I would be just as grateful to see such provided here on the forum.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: perdue3 on October 19, 2022, 05:04:05 PM
A reminder of their disclaimer on their 'about' page:
"As images and footage of actual events are not always available, Dark Skies sometimes utilizes similar historical images and footage for dramatic effect and soundtracks for emotional impact. We do our best to keep it as visually accurate as possible.
All content on Dark Skies is researched, produced, and presented in historical context for educational purposes. We are history enthusiasts and are not always experts in some areas, so please don't hesitate to reach out to us with corrections, additional information, or new ideas."
They are apparently quite open to receiving the material from others that they could not find on their own. I would be just as grateful to see such provided here on the forum.
Yea, that would be cool to give them all the footage and do all the research needed, etc. I do not have that kind of time, even though I have time to fiddle about on the forum. Not to mention, I am no expert in VVS and do not have the research capabilities here aside from the internet.
It is a good thing they are so open about it. I just wonder what they were thinking when they showed Tiger Moth's and Jungmann's flying about while rattling on about the Strutter? It comes off as they do not know the difference or are just SUPER lazy. Perplexing.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Arlo on October 19, 2022, 05:08:20 PM
I am no expert in VVS and do not have the research capabilities here aside from the internet. ~~~~~~~~ It comes off as they do not know the difference or are just SUPER lazy. ~~~~~~~~ Perplexing.
Indeed.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: GasTeddy on October 19, 2022, 05:13:05 PM
Not exactly Soviet history but Russian made documentary about Finnish Air Force (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7__fLKIB5EE).
Didn't know should I laugh or cry what they tell about WW2. Deliberately not mentioning anything else than Fokker D XXI and Messerschmitt 109s, in which Finns were "quite competitive against Soviet pilots". Russian way to make history, especially what comes to "forgetting" Brewster B239 with its 32:1 kill ratio and the fact that Finns were the most successful pilots after Germans in the whole world during WW2.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: perdue3 on October 19, 2022, 06:06:19 PM
And furthermore, it's not like they aren't making money. So, why not upgrade your research purse? I suppose if I was making money producing fairly low quality, low academic, and low budget videos without doing proper research I would just keep making them and cashing them (Michael Bay style). There are likely better alternatives to Dark Skies and Smithsonian. But, I do not spend a lot of time on youtube for docs, I am usually working or reading. I do love a good economic or religiosity documentary.
Title: Re: WW2 Soviet aviation ?
Post by: Volron on October 19, 2022, 09:41:16 PM
I thought this was about books on Soviet Aviation...