Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Lucchini on December 14, 2001, 03:52:00 AM
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Hello
does anybody knows if a good biography of this ace exist?
Thx
Lucc
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No, but you should like this link: Marseille by Major Tate, USAF (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/hanstate.html)
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Lucchini, there is one, I bought it a few weeks ago, bout 200 pages or so, took me 2 oe 3 days to read it. Just couldn't let go of the thing, this guy was near supernatural when it came to flying, he could do stuff that hardly the plane couldn't do, he took scored kills no metter how he flew, intverted, turning or not, and no matter how the enemy flew. I scored kills with MG's only, and 20mm only, sometimes not using more then 10 20mm rounds per plane.
Well, can read about it your self :)
Book is called "German FIghter Hans-Joachim Marseille: The Life story of the Star of Africa" ISBN: 0-88740-517-7
This is without doubt the pilot of all times I look up to.
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Top flyer and top gun, no doubt.
Would be happy to find more websites on Marseille, some things he did are still somewhat a mystery, and people still argue about his claims.
A british Wing commander made a study of Marseilles famous day, where he claimed 17 british fighters. He found out from RAF loss reports that the British lost 8 aircraft in that area on that day. Hardly all to Marseille? Well, still today, this is a debate.
I bought a book on Fighter Command losses over 1942, but unfortunately it did not cover N Africa, only the home front. Would love to dig more into this if I just had the sources. I have made some study of LW claims vs RAF actual losses on the French front, and it is interesting enough. Sometimes claims are 100% accurate, sometimes double, and there are even claims where there were no losses.
Anyway, I have a theory on Marseilles favourite anti-spitfire maneuver, which I wanted to share with you (If you don't know it allready).
Since the Spitfires would almost always break into a tight turn (the desert variant being somewhat slower than the 109F) Marseille would use that. He chopped the throttle and delicately forced the 109's slots to slam out. In a slow, almost hovering turn, he got his aircraft's nose into firing position. With some deflection, he would see the Spitfire floating through his gunsight. He would fire approximately when the Spitfires nose was entering his sight, and line his few pings exclusively in the engine and the cockpit. With the low speed applied, and the very short range, both machine guns and cannons were deadly, and ulętimate accuracy was reached.
The rest of his buddies would cover him while he performed his stunts, otherwise he would be putting himself into imminent danger, being that slow in the middle of combat.
I have read some other accounts of 109 pilots who did this, but they were not many.
Why, one would ask. Well, only a few could master that good a feel to make the slots open so precisely, - if they didn't the plane could snap quite brutally. And totally sacrificing your speed for it could prove fatal.
I guess AH does not feature the slots. Would be fun if one could perform this in AH, that would definately bring more people to fly the 109!
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sorry guys... forum bug.... TEST!
carry on...
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Hello Angus
if You mean W/C Johnny Johnson, he forgot that also SAAF flown that day and took losses. Can't remeber exact numbers anymore but combined losses of the RAF and the SAAF were around 14.
Best regards
Juha
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In the Marseille book I have, the day he shot down 17 fighters were checked by the author with Allied actaul losses that day, and it was correct acording to what he saw.
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Great link, thx.
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The author who did a survey of that day was actually Sqn Ldr Duncan-Smith.
Even if the combined Allied forces DID lose 17 aircraft that day, it makes you wonder if they all fell prey to just Marseille, and the rest of the Luftwaffe scored nothing?
Another thing to compare is the actual fact that on the Western front the RAF fighter command suffered the losses of 1 aircraft that day.
Mind-boggling isn't it
:confused: :confused: :confused:
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Originally posted by Angus:
The author who did a survey of that day was actually Sqn Ldr Duncan-Smith.
Even if the combined Allied forces DID lose 17 aircraft that day, it makes you wonder if they all fell prey to just Marseille, and the rest of the Luftwaffe scored nothing?
Other studies have found that the combined losses in that area were much more than those 17 aircraft. So there's nothing strange here, except Marseille's awesome gunnery skills.
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>The author who did a survey of that day was actually Sqn Ldr Duncan-Smith.
Sqn Ldr Duncan-Smith is an obvious idiot. Read "Fighter Over The Desert" by Christopher Shores & Hans Ring for a detailed daily account of the desert air war. Yes, the Brits (including RAAF and SAAF!) did lose _more_ than 17 a/c on September 01, 1942 and Marseilles was _not_ the only German pilot to score that day. Total allied losses of single-engined fighters on that day was 20 (with several more badly damaged): 9 Hurricanes, 4 Kittyhawks, 4 Tomahawks, 2 Spitfires, 1 P-40 and also 2 Beaufighters.
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Fighter Over The Desert, now that's one I am gonna buy :)
I have been studying both LW claims vs RAF losses and the opposite a little bit, so the amazing day of Marseille is just one interesting bit.
As far as I've seen, the LW overclaims a bit, sometimes up to double, sometimes claims kills when the opponent lost no plane at all, and sometimes they are 100% accurate.
Overclaims seem to hold hands with big frantic air engagements, which is normal.
Many kill claims also match with a damaged aircraft RTB.
I“ll dig up some examples on claims vs. actual losses, however those are from the RAF-LW fighting over France and the netherlands in 1942. Sometime soon.
Good to know of another good book, - I have some literure by Shores, and that is all good stuff.
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In the confusion of air combat, the same kill may be shot at by more than 1 attacker and each attacker may understandably claim a victory, unaware of the other combatant's claim. The Luftwaffe - with typical Teutonic rigor and thoroughness - was the most conscientious of _ALL_ the nations in verifying and documenting it's pilots victory claims. The British claims are probably the least reliable - their BoB claims are grossly overinflated. The "Truth" in their class-conscious society has always been secondary to their national obsession with "morale" and "keeping up appearances". I find it incredulous for the Brits to question the veracity of Marseilles' combat record while they accept an undocumented phantom-ace like Pattle (??) and a deliberate bullsh*tter like WWI's Billy Bishop. US Air Corps claims cannot always be compared to German claims, because the US counted air-to-ground strafing kills while the Germans only counted air-to-air victories. The US also distributed 1/2 and even 1/4 victories while the Germans assigned only full kills.
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You tell'um furball... :)
Amen brother............
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Originally posted by FurBull:
The Luftwaffe - with typical Teutonic rigor and thoroughness - was the most conscientious of _ALL_ the nations in verifying and documenting it's pilots victory claims. The British claims are probably the least reliable - their BoB claims are grossly overinflated. The "Truth" in their class-conscious society has always been secondary to their national obsession with "morale" and "keeping up appearances". .... .US Air Corps claims cannot always be compared to German claims, because the US counted air-to-ground strafing kills while the Germans only counted air-to-air victories. The US also distributed 1/2 and even 1/4 victories while the Germans assigned only full kills.
Um....where do you get this crap?
- Oldman
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Originally posted by FurBull:
The Luftwaffe - with typical Teutonic rigor and thoroughness - was the most conscientious of _ALL_ the nations in verifying and documenting it's pilots victory claims.
WTF does that come from.
conscientious: guided by one's sense of right and wrong.
That is one thing the Nazi's did not have.
ATC
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Maybe not nazies but howabout pilots? Or were they all nazies?
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Originally posted by Staga:
Maybe not nazies but howabout pilots? Or were they all nazies?
Doubtless all pilots weren't Nazi's nor all Nazi's pilots. But you can bet yer leather clad butt the Nazi's were in charge of keepin score. And that says all that needs to be said about Herr furbull's assertions.
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ATC wrote:
>WTF does that come from.
>conscientious: guided by one's sense of >right and wrong.
>That is one thing the Nazi's did not have.
WTF does Nazism have to do with air combat records? Either a plane got shot down or it didn't... I'm not interested in political/moral bullsh*t.
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Originally posted by FurBull:
WTF does Nazism have to do with air combat records? Either a plane got shot down or it didn't... I'm not interested in political/moral bullsh*t.
Kind of like how the class-structure of England doesn't have anything to do with air combat. So if the English were so class conscience that they put "keeping up appearances" ahead of the truth, why can't the Nazis be accused of doing the same? One can argue that the Nazis also greatly inflated and exagerated their kills to further promote their misguided claims of "Teutonic rigor and thoroughness".
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Buzzard wrote:
>the Nazi's were in charge of keepin score. >And that says all that needs to be said
Individual pilot scores were the responsibilty of the Luftwaffe combat units not Goebels' propaganda ministry. Goebel's probably claimed in his wartime broadcasts that the Luftwaffe shot down 5000 planes every single day but no self-respecting Luftwaffe fighter pilot would accept his propaganda as fact and neither do I. Equally bogus is the British propaganda bullsh*t that no Brit planes were lost in N Africa on September 01, 1942 when in fact they lost more than 20! I'm not interested in propaganda - whether it's German, British, American.... The issue here is the combat record of Jochen Marseilles and of Luftwaffe pilots in general. Given the nature of aerial combat, the numbers claimed may not always be totally 100% accurate, but the historical evidence is that the Luftwaffe's claims are certainly credible!
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"Here they come again, the last fifty Spitfires"........
You do the math.
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Originally posted by Seeker:
"Here they come again, the last fifty Spitfires"........
You do the math.
I hate when you get all cryptic. Tex, is that you ?
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People are just blowing smoke here.
No credible source challenges the kill total of Marseille.
The German scoreing system was more accurate then then any of the allied ones.
The Allies did use flexible accounting of kills for moral purposes. I have never seen a credible claim that the Germans did likewise.
What does the fact that many Germans were nazis have to do with it..Many of the Brits were commies. Many of the upper crust Brits admired the Nazis. What is your point..The Germans while not perfect were at least as accurate as anyone about counting kills.
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I guess some countries were counting victories more precise than others: Russian archives revealed that FAF shot down 1855 planes while Finnish pilots got only 1807 victories (Winter- and Continuation war).
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Originally posted by Pongo:
No credible source challenges the kill total of Marseille.
I think Johnnie Johnson is a fairly credible source. In fact, as a fighter pilot, I'd consider him a superior source.
The German scoreing system was more accurate then then any of the allied ones.
Where do you guys get this? The RLM destroyed its official kill records at the end of the war. There are no official records of kills awarded. There are only official records of claims made. I've yet to see any primary source (which that Constable/Tolliver outfit is not)that would make me think the Nazis were even close to the US in evaluating claims. Gun camera use was sporadic and mainly late-war, so far as Galland tells us. Caldwell, who has done some pretty thorough records research, estimates that the Nazi claims were 10-20 per cent exaggerated, and that claims for American four-engine bombers might be double the actual loss.
The Allies did use flexible accounting of kills for moral purposes. I have never seen a credible claim that the Germans did likewise.
With the US bomber crew claims that was probably true. Post-war research, according to Freeman, shows that US fighter claims were very close to actual Nazi losses. As for the Nazi claims, give me a break. What was the purpose of their silly point system, if not to improve pilot morale?
What does the fact that many Germans were nazis have to do with it..Many of the Brits were commies. Many of the upper crust Brits admired the Nazis. What is your point
You were the one who started throwing around crap about English class distinctions causing inflated English claims.
The Germans while not perfect were at least as accurate as anyone about counting kills.
I don't buy this; I don't see how anyone can. If you credit Nazi claims, then 100 guys accounted for 14,000 Allied planes.
- Oldman
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Well, maybe I shot down 14,000, it's hard to recall because I was drinking heavily in those days.
Sakai
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Originally posted by Sakai:
Well, maybe I shot down 14,000, it's hard to recall because I was drinking heavily in those days.
Sakai
I hadn't heard you stopped.
Have you an interest in opening a dry goods store in California, perhaps?
- oldman
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Originally posted by Oldman:
I hadn't heard you stopped.
Have you an interest in opening a dry goods store in California, perhaps?
- oldman
Just as soon as I blow the queejip outta a couple varmints to get my grub stake set, I reckon I might.
By the by, is that one of the ten best all time westerns, or what the hell, over?
Sakai
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Originally posted by Sakai:
By the by, is that one of the ten best all time westerns, or what the hell, over?
Sakai
Yep. Favorite scene : th speech comin outa th bar after doin for Little Bill.
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Originally posted by DamnedBuzzard:
Yep. Favorite scene : th speech comin outa th bar after doin for Little Bill.
OK Buzz man, what are the other nine best? I can't choose, too many good ones though I am partial to:
Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid
She Wore a Yellow Ribbon
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
McCabe and Mrs. Miller
Once upon a Time in the West
Tombstone
The Shootist
Wild Bill
Little Big Man
Geez, no way I can just pick ten . . .
Sakai
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The day that Marseille got 17, my great uncles squad was 213 squad. He lost his wingman to Marseille and 4 other comrads. He was a tough opponent , especially in a clapped out Hurri IIC!
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Well this thread certainly caught fire!!!
I think we should respect the topic of Marseille, and not Hijack this thread into the inflammable topic of kill authenticy. I therefore suggest that someone start a new thread about that subject in the History forum, and please don't get so hot-headed about all :rolleyes:
It's interesting though, how hot this matter is after 60 years...
I am sorry for one thing, It was me who started doubting the 100% authenticy of Marseilles top kill day, so that's what caused this turbulence. Well, but I still do!
Someone said in this thread that the british figures were the least accurate while the German ones were the most accurate. Boo! Well, both overclaimed a lot during the Battle of Britain, the British already then guessing a lot nearer to the truth about the strength og the Luftwaffe, while the Luftwaffe was expecting the RAF to be down to the famous fifty aircraft. Both were wrong, and if my memory serves me right, the British claims turned out to be nearer to the actual numbers.
As if that was not enough, The British soon found out that their own claims had to be corrected, - simply by comparing claims over english soil vs wrecks recovered/reported.
Later on, to get a confirmed kill, the pilot had to be able to proof, either by secondary witness, camera or wreck that the enemy aircraft either disintegrated in the air, pilot bailed out, or aircraft crashed into the ground. Now you can call me silly, but I doubt Marseille was able to fulfill this particular 17 chute/crash-photo/witness scrutiny, while I have little doubt that he actually pinged 17 times an aircraft!
I know of british aces that went to quite some lengths to prove kills that they could not get confirmed by the book, such as bringing parts of the wreck to the CO's table. I would like to hear of similar problems within the Luftwaffe!
If kill claims could not be tampered with, well, - Douglas Baders "kill" was "claimed" by a Major, by the command of Galland, just to soothen Bader, who was worried he had been shot down by an inferior officer! Nobody ever even knew who got him.
And regarding the Propoganda side, nobody could ever beat the nazis at that game, never.
I guess the newest example of overclaiming in modern times could be written on to the Argentinians, which had claimed 26 Harriers shot down in the Falkland war (1982) while only 20 had arrived, and none yet been shot down. Now just a minute, who built up the Argentinian Airforce again...hmmm
So, I guess I have fed you all enough to start WW2 all over again, so I urge you again to start a new thread about claims. Would surely be interesting.
Back to Marseille. I recently saw an interview with Johannes Steinhoff about Marseille, - Steinhoff had been his superior officer before the desert.(After lunch, before desert :D )
Steinhoff said that Marseille was a good pilot, shot, etc, but had been so obsessed with his hobby of womanizing, that it had hampered his success as a fighter pilot. Now, once in the desert, with hardly any women to focus on, Marseille turned all his energies into air combat perfection and became a star. Cool :D