Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: The Fugitive on June 04, 2023, 09:28:31 PM
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Does anyone know what the bullet drop is on the guns for the 109s? Cannons, MG, and the gondola cannons.
I love flying the plane but cant hit anything in it. Looking to tune in my convergence and aim points.
Thanks
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With the 30mm, set convergence to 400. The lob of the round puts it in the center of the gunsight at 200 and 400 yards.
I don't have a similar trick for the 20mm. I set it to 300 and will move it out more if I find that I'm only hitting the tail on crossing shots.
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At 400 yds the 30mm has a 40ft dispersion cone which is bigger than most fighters wing span.
The 20mm has a me of about 730 meters per second and a much tighter dispersion.
Personally I set the 30mm to 150 yds,this brings the round up to the piper at 150 and it rises slightly before it starts to drop. Most my conversions are set in close with 275 to 300 yds being the furthest out I use and that’s usually for mg’s only, most my cannons are set to 250 but I like to get close because I don’t see well.
Conversion is a personal thing with too many variables to say set X at Y conversion. I suggest you use the dot target aide and set a nice pattern for all guns then change to the lead calculating.gunsight and watch how much lead you need from various angles. One tip I have is try to unload the airframe as much as possible,when pulling G you will notice the rounds will drop farther under the nose,you can test this by flying a flat turn and watching where the rounds are going.
Hope this helps Fugitive.
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Go to Offline Training, or the Training Arena, and use the .target command so you can see it.
.target xxx, where xxx is the distance you want the target, will put a great big target to your north at that distance. You can put your pipper on the center, and see how far the bullets drop when they hit the target.
.target 400 will put the target at 400 yards. .target 0 makes the target go away.
There are more variables you can use with the .target command, but this should be enough to tell you what you want.
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I was hoping someone had one of these for the 109s. this is for the P47 but it give you a good idea of the bullet patterns from the guns.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/P-47_gun_harmonization_-_two_types.jpg/800px-P-47_gun_harmonization_-_two_types.jpg)
Devils trick is what I was hoping to figure out, where is the top of the curve or the round being shot. In the 109 I have trouble firuring out if Im missing behind, or underneath. I cant see the rounds so its just a guessing game. Using the .target command is good for what it is but again, in the heat of battle where the heck are my rounds going?
I fly the 109 for a month strait and get frustrated and jump back into a US plane with those 50s and get my groove back there, but I keep coming back as I just love how the 109 handles.
Thanks for the tips, Ill keep working on it.
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I was hoping someone had one of these for the 109s. this is for the P47 but it give you a good idea of the bullet patterns from the guns.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/P-47_gun_harmonization_-_two_types.jpg/800px-P-47_gun_harmonization_-_two_types.jpg)
Devils trick is what I was hoping to figure out, where is the top of the curve or the round being shot. In the 109 I have trouble firuring out if Im missing behind, or underneath. I cant see the rounds so its just a guessing game. Using the .target command is good for what it is but again, in the heat of battle where the heck are my rounds going?
I fly the 109 for a month strait and get frustrated and jump back into a US plane with those 50s and get my groove back there, but I keep coming back as I just love how the 109 handles.
Thanks for the tips, Ill keep working on it.
I used to have a similar graph for the 109 and 190 series planes but they were lost in the great computer melt down of 2018. IIRC the Germans harmonized the guns to converge at 400 meters. The rounds would rise above the visor point around 40/50 meters then drop back to the visor line at 400.
In AH the rounds rise to visor line at convergence setting, they don’t rise above and drop into at convergence like they did in RL.
I’d suggest you grab a friend and practice in the TA with the LCG which will show the lead required during a fight. That will allow you to get a better idea of the sight picture and may help with getting more rounds on target.
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I used to have a similar graph for the 109 and 190 series planes but they were lost in the great computer melt down of 2018. IIRC the Germans harmonized the guns to converge at 400 meters. The rounds would rise above the visor point around 40/50 meters then drop back to the visor line at 400.
In AH the rounds rise to visor line at convergence setting, they don’t rise above and drop into at convergence like they did in RL.
I’d suggest you grab a friend and practice in the TA with the LCG which will show the lead required during a fight. That will allow you to get a better idea of the sight picture and may help with getting more rounds on target.
OK, so first what is the "visor line"?
Second, your saying the vertical high spot that the rounds travel is at what ever convergence you set the guns to in AH, and that is at this "visor line". Right?
I try to set up crossing shots so Im not pulling through the shot and spraying like a garden hose. So if the top of the arc of the round is at convergence and I am firing AT convergence I am most likely NOT missing "under" my target. I am more likely not leading enough and missing behind the target is my thought.
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Bf109 gun harmonization, not convergence, chart
https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/7443-convergence/page/2/
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If you look at the side view chart you will see a line that comes out the cockpit,this is the eye level through the gunsight or the visor line… if you look closely the rounds rise above that and the drop back to visor line at convergences.
Like when shooting a rifle the round goes above the aim point then drops back to aim point at range.
In AH this doesn’t happen,instead the rounds rise to the visor line at convergence!
Hope that explains it and helps. Buster and I spent many hours testing when he was preparing to make his practice map.
If you look at the link Milo provided it clearly shows how it worked in RL,notice the mg’s rise above at about 40 meters and the 20mm do it around 200 meters,then they both drop back to the visor line at about 400 meters where the guns were set to harmonize.
Again though in AH they only rise to visor line at convergence distance.
<S>
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Like when shooting a rifle the round goes above the aim point then drops back to aim point at range.
In AH this doesn’t happen,instead the rounds rise to the visor line at convergence!
This is certainly news to me. So essentially I'm shooting under the target if I fire at 200 yards when my convergence is set at 400.
No wonder I'm such a pathetic shot!
Thanks for the information, will try to put it to use.
- oldman
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OK, so they only time I should be missing vertically is if Im shooting outside of my conversion/harmonics settings, and if I am Ill be shooting low.
Thanks for the harmonics diagram, im hoping to find more. Im thinking of maybe drawing my own when I have some time and Im sure I understand how things work in the game.
Thanks again guys.
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Like when shooting a rifle the round goes above the aim point then drops back to aim point at range.
In AH this doesn’t happen,instead the rounds rise to the visor line at convergence!
Wait, there's no arc to the round in AH?
I forget who told me the 400 yard trick to the 30mm cannon, but it seemed to work. It definitely shouldn't if there's no arc.
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From what I understand, there is an arc but it is from the guns to the visor line/eye site line at what ever convergence you have set. The bullet drop happens after the convergence point.
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From what I understand, there is an arc but it is from the guns to the visor line/eye site line at what ever convergence you have set. The bullet drop happens after the convergence point.
Correct!
At 400 yds the 30mm has a 40. Ft dispersion cone which is larger than most fighter’s wingspan. HTC even modeled in the spin drift,you can test this using the dot target and a static aircraft. Buster would roll the A/C off the end of a runway to get it as close to level as possible then setup the target so he could test these things out.
<S>
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The bullet drop happens after the convergence point.
Always learning something new in this game. :salute
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From what I understand, there is an arc but it is from the guns to the visor line/eye site line at what ever convergence you have set. The bullet drop happens after the convergence point.
I’m still not clear on how to set mixed gun convergence then. Should cannons be set past the machine guns or keeping them together work best?
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I’m still not clear on how to set mixed gun convergence then. Should cannons be set past the machine guns or keeping them together work best?
Cannons and MGs typically have quite different muzzle velocities, so you should really try to use them individually. Usually the cannon round is a lot slower, so if you're shooting mixed guns you might see hit splashes from your mg but your cannon rounds are falling behind the target (which results in the ch200 whine... "I hit you with a gazllion 20mm" - when in fact it's been BBs splashing the target).
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Good note thanks.
I don’t do 200.
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Cannons and MGs typically have quite different muzzle velocities, so you should really try to use them individually. Usually the cannon round is a lot slower, so if you're shooting mixed guns you might see hit splashes from your mg but your cannon rounds are falling behind the target (which results in the ch200 whine... "I hit you with a gazllion 20mm" - when in fact it's been BBs splashing the target).
Which will result in the next text of "He is hacking and flying an invinicible plane I shot him and nothing happened HALP Im telling daddy!!!"
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Once you set your convergence, use the .target command to see how your guns pattern at other ranges. For example, if you set your convergence to 300 look at how that patterns at 100, 200, 400, and 600. That will show you the difference between guns and cannon and also your hit pattern dispersion.
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Once you set your convergence, use the .target command to see how your guns pattern at other ranges. For example, if you set your convergence to 300 look at how that patterns at 100, 200, 400, and 600. That will show you the difference between guns and cannon and also your hit pattern dispersion.
Excellent idea that I forgot to mention.
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Bf109 gun harmonization, not convergence, chart
https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/7443-convergence/page/2/
BF109E (and Bf110c )- after the 190a4's - has the worst gun combination trajectory-wise, the low velocity 20mm FF is only used in Bf109E (and BF110C) in AH, and the low caliber machine guns only tickle a late enemy plane - but are valid in IL-2 early war setup when planes had low or no armor.
109F4 have the higher velocity 20mm 151, but share the pitiful 7.9mm Mg's, but they are closer to each other in trajectory.
Later German birds have more potent 13mm machine guns and 20mm 151 that are also closer to each other in velocity, i remember the 109g6 with 2 extra 20mm 151 in gondolas and 2x13mm gave a telling effect setting them all to 400 yards.
FW190a4 have the worst trajectory setup between guns in AH, 2x20mm FF, 2x20mm 151, and 2 7.9mm MG's gives you 3 different trajectories, later changed in the FW190A6-FW190a9 to 4x20mm 151, and 2 13mm MG's.
In the later 109's i used 400 yards across, and the Fw190a4 should only carry the 20mm 151at 400 yards omitting the 20mm FF's.
In the in the A8 I set the convergence to 600 across with all 4 20mm and 13mm
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Did some testing with the .target function.
https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,406576.msg5396705.html#new
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In the in the A8 I set the convergence to 600 across with all 4 20mm and 13mm
I like flying that A8 so I’m going to try this. What about if you replace two 20’s with the two 30’s?
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Does anyone remember what the red rings on the dot target yards are?
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The 30mm wing mounted guns on the fw190a8 have extremely high bullet drop, best used in a top attack against bombers where it shines, it also make the plane very heavy, with a slow climb and it is 30-40km/h slower than without them.
When I was buff hunting i used to come in from coalt position at lower speed from 10 or 2 o'clock and raked the 3-plane formation.
Against Lancaster's you can expect all 3 to go down when you are doing it right, against B17's - you can get one or two, and the 3rd damaged with 4*20mm and 2*13mm. The hard part is to shoot with correct lead.
The hardest bomber formation to kill is the B26 formation, you only get max one, and the other ones slightly damaged, and if you go after them in a tail chase you end up with a kaputt engine, due to the bombers speed, your closure rate us abysmal.
The B26 is the hardest bomber to kill in the game.