General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: CptTrips on September 28, 2023, 02:30:31 PM
Title: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on September 28, 2023, 02:30:31 PM
Not really a competitor of AH, at least for years to come.
This is really an interesting interview of a industry insider who produced the IL2 GB series and is now stepping out on his own. Some interesting insights into this game genre.
Oh and AH gets a brief mention. I was amazed.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Nefarious on September 28, 2023, 03:23:54 PM
I was going to post Enigma's video on why IL-2 is dead or suffocating in the vote thread because I felt it was relevant to the conversation.
Enigma has mentioned AH in his videos, I actually followed him because of something you posted here.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on September 28, 2023, 03:31:50 PM
I was going to post Enigma's video on why IL-2 is dead or suffocating in the vote thread because I felt it was relevant to the conversation.
Enigma has mentioned AH in his videos, I actually followed him because of something you posted here.
You could get away with that. I decided not to. ;)
But yes, that one is very interesting too. And now realizing that this was the producer of the GB series and is now gone, now the lost direction and sense lack of progress and communication in the IL2 world suddenly makes sense.
Enigma made some interesting points about why it matters.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: DmonSlyr on September 29, 2023, 02:53:35 PM
There is some good potential here. Looks like he has a team and some initial funding. I'm a little bit hard pressed it will only be Pacific as you only have a limited plane set and a lot of fighting over blue, but there is a wide variety of action to be had. You gotta start somewhere. Unfortunate that online wouldn't happen for a while, but his understanding of how challenging and early on this is seems realistic. Flight model and feel of the planes would be my biggest strategy given they'll likely already have solid graphics. Anything too arcady will get shot down. Also didn't hear how they would introduce the years of the war throughout the game given different plane model advances.
It's strange to me that they didn't actually talk about AH more. It's almost like they wanted to avoid saying Aces High, which is frustrating. I doubt they probably played it much. To me, has the overall best idea of Pacific fighting, given all the aspects it has and what you can do with it. Carrier battles against land bases are some of the most fun to be had. If they made it feel like that Midway movie in a sense with big battles for islands. It could really be engaging. I hope it's realistic where you can push buttons on the dash and really feel the plane and its strength and weaknesses, much like what I like with AH in that regard. I do hope that they can make it as realistic as possible, but not too complicated for noobs to get in the air and fight.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on September 29, 2023, 03:28:47 PM
It's almost like they wanted to avoid saying Aces High, which is frustrating.
I don't think it was like that. What there was to say in this context was said. It was noted to be a game example that still sticks to the monolithic subscription model. That was it's relevance.
In reality though, it's not really a significant market player anymore, right? I mean if we are being honest, and not just fan bois. It is a rounding error in the market share. That it was mentioned at all should be considered a hat-tip to it's storied past.
And 99.9999% of their audience would not even know what they were talking about if they did. Enigma was probably in 8th grade when I was playing in the AH beta. Heck, he might have been one of the squeakers we haven't heard since 2010. ;) I'd love to know if he had ever had a subscription.
If the conversation was to have relevance, it had to be couched in terms of sims the audience would know and could mentally compare.
But that said, there is many a slip between cup and lip. 5 years before they have the SP version, longer for anything MP. So no, I don't see it as a reasonable threat to AH in what's left of what looks like the remainder of it's life span. Do we really think AH will still be here in 8 years from now? I hope so, but I wouldn't put money on it.
They are laying the ground work for a new franchise like IL2 that might span another 20 years. so they are playing a long game. It's not a threat in time scale worth worrying about, but it was an interesting conversation with a guy who has a proven track record of producing successful flight sims. That's not an easy feat so this guy's insights are probably worth listening to.
I think they are very smart to choose 3rd party engine. It will be a lot easier for them to find talent and therefore less expensive. There are a boat load of experienced Unreal Engine developers out there. That makes them cheaper and faster to bring on board. And why not leave the graphics and optimization to a company who's sole existence to to perfect that. Meanwhile they can concentrate on value-added content not the base plumbing.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: whiteman on September 29, 2023, 04:25:42 PM
The fact that it’s Pacific only actually has my attention. I’ve had enough of the eastern European front and it and the western front are both well represented already. Why add more of that? It’s got a long way to go, but I hope it doesn’t fall into the category of DCS complicated. I want to get up, fight, drop bombs and RTB. I don’t wanna push buttons for the sake of pushing buttons for 10 minutes on the runway.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on September 29, 2023, 05:32:17 PM
The fact that it’s Pacific only actually has my attention. I’ve had enough of the eastern European front and it and the western front are both well represented already. Why add more of that? It’s got a long way to go, but I hope it doesn’t fall into the category of DCS complicated. I want to get up, fight, drop bombs and RTB. I don’t wanna push buttons for the sake of pushing buttons for 10 minutes on the runway.
Well in the interview they said it was intended to be high fidelity and specifically referenced DCS. I would expect it to be closer to DCS than AH in that regard. But even in DCS everything can be bound so macros and voice attack profiles can simplify. And even a cold start you can do auto start. It just takes longer to get rolling but in DCS it's up the the mission maker if he wants to allow hot-starts ready to roll so it's not really a problem.
I used to hate that stuff but now actually I like it. It takes a mind shift. Instead of dabbling in a lot of planes you pick fewer and go really deep. Kinda reminds me of the old days buying Falcon 3.0 or Tornado or SU-27 Flanker.
I mean something like an Apache is just plain complicated. That is just how it is going to be unless you War Thunder dumb it down.
There is a certain satisfaction in really learning the details of the machine, it really puts you more in the historical seat so you know what the pilots had to do to fly those things. They are not inventing new buttons, those are the buttons on the actual plane. So to me it has become interesting learning how things actually worked. To say you don't want the actual cockpit of the historical plane is only one step away from wanting a dumbed down flight model because it's too hard.
But I get it. That was my opinion to at one time. I've just developed more of an appreciation of the level of detail and simulation. But it means I have a pile of other modules I've barely touched because I am spending a year learning the Apache. ;)
I do agree on hot-starts and multiplayer. I'll do cold starts in single player but I think MP is best with hot starts. Once up, I don't mind dealing with the actual cockpit but I use a lot of voice attack. I haven't found the DCS warbirds that overly complicated. I doubt it would be a deal-breaker for you. I mean a lot of you guys fetishize of WWII planes and their engines and their performance so I think once you get used to it you would like the actual cockpits.
Hey, you got 5 years to worry about it. ;)
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: AKIron on September 29, 2023, 10:50:57 PM
Battles over land and sea always sparked my imagination.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN1mNNRqu0A
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on September 29, 2023, 10:55:15 PM
Not worth the bother. It wasn’t positive (shocking I know). “It didn’t catch my attention” He put effort into avoiding its mention. I wonder why the oldest sim still running was intensionally ignored. Doesn’t surprise me only a negative view was posted. Bait and switch.
He’s going the DCS/IL-2 combo path of glitter you could only see in a still photo. Don’t count on a melee type arena.(prolly why AH was down played). You know how that works. More graphics less players in one server, less fun. Its a narrow minded pacific only concept. All eye candy. It will be more of another drone game they now call AI. You’ll need a monster machine.
That said, I love being wrong.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: AKIron on September 30, 2023, 08:12:57 AM
Didn't play that one, but wore this one out (Midi music is so awesome. I miss that. It makes me instantly smile. Sounds like good times.)...
Dynamix and Microprose were the kings of the air back then. The games were fun. The simulations now are much closer to reality which frustrates many due to real life learning curves.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: AKIron on September 30, 2023, 08:23:03 AM
Another great one from 1988. Low on realism but high on fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDb2_yJhW2A
The F-16 Falcon series beginning in glorious CGA was the first real attempt at a realistic combat sim on the pc imo. Read recently that Microprose reacquired the license. Will be interesting to see what they do with it.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on September 30, 2023, 08:36:39 AM
It was very brief. It was in the business model section. They were listing different sims and they monetization models. He mentioned AH as the example of the classic subscription model.
I was just surprised he knew of it.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on September 30, 2023, 08:37:58 AM
I got the feeling he was talking AH, either way it was just a passing mention.
Enigma talks really fast. At least it seems that way to a Texan. ;)
@41:27 he lists Aces High and WWIIOnline as examples of the subscription model and then says, "I dunno, did you ever play WWIIOnline?" That is when Jason replied he did but it never caught his interest. Enigma said he liked WWIIOnline. He didn't mention playing AH.
It was brief, but the interview wasn't about AH or WWIIOL, it was about CP so not surprising.
I sent Enigma a msg asking if he ever had a subscription to AH. I asked if he would ever consider doing a retrospective video "How We Got Here" spotlighting the foundational MP combat flight sims (He is MP focused usually) like AW, FA, WB, AH. I asked if would he would do a survey vid on AH and it's pros and cons of design. But I don't know if he will ever see it. I'm sure he gets messaged a lot.
[Edit] From his Youtube description: "This is the same Enigma from WWIIOL and I continue to fly with the same group of people from then. I go by Enigma or Enigma89 depending on the game." So he was obviously referring to WWIIOL in that exchange.
I also just posted in his discord asking if he would do a AH vid. One video from Enigma would get a ton of eyes on AH. That Combat Pilot video is only 2 days old and already has 9,000 views.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Nefarious on September 30, 2023, 09:57:39 AM
I have so much to say in both this thread and the Vote thread.
Just can't find the time to write a wall of text.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on September 30, 2023, 10:02:32 AM
I have so much to say in both this thread and the Vote thread.
Just can't find the time to write a wall of text.
Please do. I would be interested to read your thoughts.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Brooke on September 30, 2023, 11:04:01 AM
That sort of game, geared toward the limited play of a tiny plane set, and either single player or small number of online people playing some pre-arranged mission, has no appeal to me.
Actually, anything that doesn't allow scenario play isn't that appealing to me anymore.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on September 30, 2023, 11:30:57 AM
Actually, anything that doesn't allow scenario play isn't that appealing to me anymore.
Understandable for you. But there is nothing about AH that makes it the only one capable of Scenarios. It didn't invent Scenarios. It was cross-pollenated from Warbirds and Air Warrior before that. No reason that tradition couldn't also be cross-pollenated elsewhere as well. It's just a cultural tradition\education issue.
I think "that sort of game" is unfair. He stated they don't know yet how things will be structured or the style of MP they will have. At this point it is Proof of Concepts and Funding stage. The only thing that can be said about "that sort of game" is that they intend to target high fidelity, WWII, PTO, SP first, then add MP. I wouldn't assume more than that because they themselves haven't worked out the final design.
I think they are smart getting a single player layer first. As he stated (and he has tons of insight and internal data as producer of the IL2 series) single player numbers are an order of magnitude larger than MP. So if you can do that, you now have tons of funding to finance your MP effort the way it should be.
SP is harder than MP because passable AI is hard and missions have to be painstakingly hand crafted, but it can be a revenue generator because of the differential in numbers and exposes you to a much larger audience and some of those might eventually be encouraged to try MP later. I wish AH could have packaged a passable SP value priced sim to put on Steam and use it as a feeder to the MP sim. HT never seemed enthused about the idea.
But CP is years and years away. Like I said, no threat to AH realistically, IMHO.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on September 30, 2023, 12:14:52 PM
Well, I tried.
"Enigma — Today at 12:06 PM I played ah for a minute But not enough to really talk about it."
I did suggest Hitech would make an excellent interview vid also. He could talk a lot about the evolution of MP combat sims because he was at the center of half of it. Again, doubt it will happen but I tried. I do believe it would make an fascinating interview.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Brooke on September 30, 2023, 12:23:50 PM
Understandable for you. But there is nothing about AH that makes it the only one capable of Scenarios. It didn't invent Scenarios. It was cross-pollenated from Warbirds and Air Warrior before that. No reason that tradition couldn't also be cross-pollenated elsewhere as well. It's just a cultural tradition\education issue.
Scenarios started in Air Warrior in about 1993 or so before there were any other such multiplayer flight sims. Invented by DoK and some other players in Air Warrior back then.
True, nothing precludes it being done elsewhere. But other than AH, most other air-combat sims don't seem to be built for it. Can't control maps, plane sets, settings, spawn points, have a separate arena for it, create logs for scoring, etc. as far as I can tell.
HiTech was an Air Warrior player before he embarked on making great flight sims. He knew about scenarios, and so AH has the systems needed to run them. But most players and designers have never experienced scenario play and it doesn't enter their thought process of how gaming can go. Even most players in AH haven't tried scenarios and don't know what experience is like.
Quote
I think "that sort of game" is unfair. He stated they don't know yet how things will be structured or the style of MP they will have.
Maybe. But I'd bet money they won't have scenarios ever given the above (i.e., most people don't know to even think of it).
To me, single player is McDonald's. I get it -- it has easier mass appeal. By comparison (again, to me, not everyone), mutliplayer is Ruth's Chris. And Scenarios are St Elmo Steakhouse.
I'd like it if more people knew what scenarios were like. But it's a very small group compared to the gamers of the world.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on September 30, 2023, 12:41:42 PM
True, nothing precludes it being done elsewhere. But other than AH, most other air-combat sims don't seem to be built for it. Can't control maps, plane sets, settings, spawn points, have a separate arena for it, create logs for scoring, etc. as far as I can tell.
DCS has a quite power Lua scripting engine.
I've participated in Scenarios. I saw nothing that couldn't be implemented. All those types of control are either natively supported or could be scripted. I wish AH had scripting support.
I'd expect CP and all modern sims to support scripting. It leaves so much flexibility open.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Devil 505 on September 30, 2023, 01:12:05 PM
I've participated in Scenarios. I saw nothing that couldn't be implemented. All those types of control are either natively supported or could be scripted. I wish AH had scripting support.
I'd expect CP and all modern sims to support scripting. It leaves so much flexibility open.
Well, the point of a scenario is to portray something historical, or at the very least , plausibly so.
Take DCS, you have a P-47D, P-51D, and a Spitfire mk IX vs. 109K-4, 190A-8, and 190D-9. And the only WW2 map is Normady.
Well, neither the K-4 or Dora were in use on D-Day, or in the subsequent battles in France. So unless it's A-8's for all on the Axis you've lost using the map in it's historical context.
The available plane set and terrain is incongruous. Might be just fine for a layman, but for anyone interested in the history, it's an issue.
Furthermore, after you do a pseudo-D-Day scenario, what's next? You've only got the same planes and the same terrain.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on September 30, 2023, 01:17:04 PM
Well, the point of a scenario is to portray something historical, or at the very least , plausibly so.
Take DCS, you have a P-47D, P-51D, and a Spitfire mk IX vs. 109K-4, 190A-8, and 190D-9. And the only WW2 map is Normady.
Well, neither the K-4 or Dora were in use on D-Day, or in the subsequent battles in France. So unless it's A-8's for all on the Axis you've lost using the map in it's historical context.
The available plane set and terrain is incongruous. Might be just fine for a layman, but for anyone interested in the history, it's an issue.
Furthermore, after you do a pseudo-D-Day scenario, what's next? You've only got the same planes and the same terrain.
Agreed. The DCS WWII planeset is immature.
People could do some great Cold War scenarios now though.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: LCADolby on September 30, 2023, 01:47:21 PM
"Enigma — Today at 12:06 PM I played ah for a minute But not enough to really talk about it."
I did suggest Hitech would make an excellent interview vid also. He could talk a lot about the evolution of MP combat sims because he was at the center of half of it. Again, doubt it will happen but I tried. I do believe it would make an fascinating interview.
HiTech and AcesHigh are a part of history, and I sincerely hope that very soon HiTech sits down on a panel and chats with a host and guests about what he has created. It would be good for the soul.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Dadtallica on September 30, 2023, 02:47:56 PM
Had my own radio show and produced several others back in my day. I was thinking of asking him to let me to an interview since so much speculation swirls in the BBS
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Brooke on October 01, 2023, 05:35:39 AM
I've participated in Scenarios. I saw nothing that couldn't be implemented. All those types of control are either natively supported or could be scripted. I wish AH had scripting support.
I'd expect CP and all modern sims to support scripting. It leaves so much flexibility open.
Scripting alone isn't necessarily enough. Depends on what capability is in the scripting. For scenarios, you need a supply of historical maps and a big enough plane set. You need an arena to run it in, where someone has control over things like who can get in, when flight is enabled, what the weather is, what terrain is loaded. You kind of need the ability to put in custom spawn points, ability to move around ships/fleets, ability to set hardness of various targets, ability to set lethality of ack, ability to disable this or that ack, ability set down times, ability to reset targets individually or in groups, ability to adjust working of radar. You need a logging system to log points or actions so that you can generate scoring.
Any game could do this. But I'm not aware of any but AH that do.
AH has scripting to do all that arena setup described above. There are a couple hundred parameters you can adjust in an arena.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: AKIron on October 01, 2023, 08:55:18 AM
First person shooters (ground) are always going to eclipse complex flight sims in popularity. Will there ever be a game that offers both at the highest levels of realism on the same battlefield? Does there need to be? I'm happy to script AI ground force actions and reactions. Air units also though real people make for more fun in that role. Interesting how AH focuses on Air with ground forces a tangent and WWII Online vice versa.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Dadtallica on October 01, 2023, 09:13:50 AM
Battlefield 1942 came pretty close way back. The flight sim part was pretty basic though but I still wore that game out.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on October 01, 2023, 09:42:30 AM
Any game could do this. But I'm not aware of any but AH that do.
Neither do I. Not in the sense you mean.
In DCS an lot of Squads will run internal Scenario-lites on a private server kinda like mini-FSO. The will create a MP mission\scenario and all play through it together as a scheduled event. It's probably a lot easier to herd cats internally in a large squad than opening it up to rando's. It's one of the value added things a squad offers is putting on those internal events.
A lot of people try DCS and think there is no MP activity. There are two main issues. 1. I bet they are not running the latest open beta version. 99.99% of populated servers run the OB. If you aren't running it, you only see a small percentage of the servers that no one goes on. 2. A lot of the activity is private internal squad scenarios. That is just part of their DNA because all the servers are currently player run.
I believe most of what you said DCS has or it can be built with scripting or will eventually be added by ED. There is custom scoring you can setup. I don't know about custom hardness. It think that would be against their high fidelity fetish. They want a given weapon to have the documented effect that it was intended and documented to have. I understand the value but that would probably be theirs view.
I know custom controllable dynamics weather is coming. I don't remember being able to change weather mid mission in AH. That could have interesting uses.
I've worked a good bit over the years with AH arena configs and weather files and the mission editor etc. I have some insight. I don't know there would be any special problems at least doing basic scenarios. AH didn't have everything day one either.
The scripting layer is an order of magnitude more powerful than anything I saw in the AH ME. Most of the simulation engine is exposed to code you can write in Lua. And there are very powerful abstracted frameworks players have built on top of that to give even more powerful flexibility and ease of use. The one I have been learning is called, MOOSE. https://flightcontrol-master.github.io/MOOSE_DOCS/Documentation/index.html (https://flightcontrol-master.github.io/MOOSE_DOCS/Documentation/index.html)
The main problem is the cultural tradition. DCS started as mainly SP focused and has added MP. AH was always MP focused. And Hitech has has 20 or so years head-start on catering to Scenarios. So DCS is still learning about the MP world.
However as DCS is shifting to making MP a first class citizen of their design priorities, I suspect you will start to see them develop those traditions. I believe they have or players could add the support. They will develop the experience of running scenarios of increasing complexity. The squad I'm in already does simple ones.
The two main roadblocks I see are:
1. The cadre of experienced CM's, the tradition of Scenarios that need to be inoculated into their community. 2. The fact there is not concept of player created maps. That one I don't see changing.
Player created maps are a double edged sword. It add flexibility, but it also ends up pretty low resolution and kinda has a blocky look like it was made with legos. DCS maps can't be user created, but are vastly higher resolution and detail. I understand the advantage of the AH approach, but I think that is lost on potential customers. What they see is the terrain doesn't look as nice. That is part of what turns potential players off. I'm not suggesting changing that though.
But AH Scenarios have had to make substitutions on airframes and maps too. So you do what you can with what you got.
I hope as other sims develop Scenario traditions they don't fall into the trap that is can only be an actual historical event and the idea of what-if scenarios are verboten. I think that is unnecessarily limiting and ends up with a set of scenarios that get run over and over and over again over 20 years. I think you should unlock your designers creativity and allow both. I can see a both historical and what-if Scenarios being enjoyable. But that is a YP not a MP.
I would be amazed if CP didn't implement what was necessary to run scenarios. I'll at least be adding my gad-fly suggestions in their discord community as they develop.
But yes, the AH scenarios are currently without equal. I could give a hang if the 3-chess-piece Melee drops dead. But I hope AH is around for years to come mainly as a beacon to show the rest of the combat sim community what Scenarios can be and challenge them to a higher standard.
No matter how much you love AH, it will end someday. All things end. I hate to break it to the fan bois, but Hitech is a mortal human, not a demi-god. If Hitech is a demi-god then certainly his players are mortal and not many new ones are added to make up the lifespan attrition. Someday AH will end.
I hope before that day the DNA of Scenarios have propagated to the rest of the sim world like it did from previous games to Aces High. It is a unique simming experience that shouldn't be lost because one single company disappears. For the same reason it would have been a loss it the tradition had died with Air Warrior.
$0.02 I'm not trying to get in a joystick measuring contest, but just trying to answer your question and explain why I don't think there is a fundamental roadblock to producing some level of structured Scenarios on something with the flexibility of DCS. And I'll be lobbying from day one to add Scenario support as a core design goal from day one to CP.
BTW, Feel free to further express your thoughts, but this is all I have to add to this topic of scenarios in other sims. There is no benefit in me adding more in this forum. I only expanded further because your did and I didn't want to be rude and ignore you. Feel free to PM me sometime if yo want to discuss it further or find me on a neutral forum like Hoggit and we can have a long form discussion. I always enjoy our interaction.
:salute
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on October 01, 2023, 09:45:37 AM
I think all Brooke is trying to say is that it isn't possible to uproot Scenarios and put them into any other game as they are currently designed (or even close for that matter). It would require removing key aspects that make the events (Scenario and FSO in particular) what they are.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: -gg- on October 01, 2023, 10:28:55 AM
Not really a competitor of AH, at least for years to come.
This is really an interesting interview of a industry insider who produced the IL2 GB series and is now stepping out on his own. Some interesting insights into this game genre.
Oh and AH gets a brief mention. I was amazed.
This is a really good interview. This guy but very intelligent and it sounds like he's going to make a really good game.
It's exciting. To see new technology and new graphics and all that applied to a World war II combat Sim. I didn't think I would see that again anytime soon.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on October 01, 2023, 10:32:09 AM
This is a really good interview. This guy but very intelligent and it sounds like he's going to make a really good game.
It's exciting. To see new technology and new graphics and all that applied to a World war II combat Sim. I didn't think I would see that again anytime soon.
If nothing else, it is a hopeful indication that major movers in the game industry and people willing to risk tens of $millions don't agree with some who say a WWII sim can't be successful.
There is nothing in the broader sim world that would suggest that beyond AH's problem which may not be due to WWII.
But IL2 had come from roughly the same time era as AH, so it will be interesting to see if they can prove that theory again with a completely new WWII sim.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Spikes on October 01, 2023, 11:12:18 AM
I sure some said the same thing about Scenarios moving from Air Warrior to WB and AH. Everyone always thinks their sims can't be matched.
I guess we'll see what the future holds.
I don't think anyone is saying it can't be done in the future. Again, Brooke's point is currently, in this universe, at this moment, right this second, there isn't another game that can support the way we run our events without drastically changing how they are run (to the point where they are no longer what we know as said event).
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on October 01, 2023, 11:27:37 AM
I don't think anyone is saying it can't be done in the future. Again, Brooke's point is currently, in this universe, at this moment, right this second, there isn't another game that can support the way we run our events without drastically changing how they are run (to the point where they are no longer what we know as said event).
Did you not see where I agreed with that? I already agreed that no one else is doing Scenarios like AH. That is the point. It is a single point of failure. I think Scenarios could be run on other sims.
Did the very first Scenario run on AW have every single feature and configuration that AH has now? I don't think so.
Did they run Scenarios though? Yes. Did they start the whole concept of Scenarios even with limited tools? Yes. Did things advance as Scenarios gained traction? Yes.
You start with what you got and build as you go.
Believe what you want. I believe that other sims should start the Scenario tradition. I believe they should learn from AH and I hope it is around long enough for them to do so. I believe something like DCS have enough capability to start the ball rolling. They won't have every capability that AH has now, but neither did AW or WB or AH at first and that didn't stop any of them from starting their own Scenario tradition.
We're done on this topic.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Brooke on October 01, 2023, 03:39:02 PM
Battlefield 1942 came pretty close way back. The flight sim part was pretty basic though but I still wore that game out.
I loved BF 1942. The aircraft part of it, though, totally sucked. They are too cartoony to be fun for an AH pilot to fly (in my opinion), and they were way unbalancing for some of the maps.
But the ground combat -- man, that was fun.
I wish BF 1942 was a subscription model so that they would have kept it up and made the servers. Instead, the "buy it and we are done" model means it only lasts for a while, then the company is onto their next title, and the old one gets no maintenance, bug fixes, updates, etc.
It's always (in my opinion) cool if players can make terrains. Going back to Quake and Marathon, where you could get tons of player-made maps, which was a blast.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Nefarious on October 01, 2023, 04:28:09 PM
I think all Brooke is trying to say is that it isn't possible to uproot Scenarios and put them into any other game as they are currently designed (or even close for that matter). It would require removing key aspects that make the events (Scenario and FSO in particular) what they are.
I believe IL2GB does it. With more players than AH Scenarios at the moment to boot. Their servers are coming close to FSO numbers.
They run coordinated "events" in Combat Box and FlugPark. I honestly can't tell you anything about them except they exist. But considering the options they have, IL2 definitely has everything they need to run scenarios, except maybe a registration page. They do everything through discord.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on October 01, 2023, 04:38:33 PM
I loved BF 1942. The aircraft part of it, though, totally sucked. They are too cartoony to be fun for an AH pilot to fly (in my opinion), and they were way unbalancing for some of the maps.
Agreed. At the time I had AH for my air fix. BF was just for goofy fun. Loved the paratrooper drops.
I remember one map had an airfield that all the liddle greedy suckers would pile up trying to be the first to grab the plane when it spawned. But they would stand there on the runway in a big group with their eyes glued on the spot where they expected the plane to spawn so they could be quickest.
There was a winding road from another base that approached the airfield from lower ground so you couldn't be seen approaching. I'd take a jeep and haul booty and jumping over that crest at high speed like Dukes of Hazard and mow down as many as I could and just zip on past and egress the target area. They would get so mad. I'd plow 5 or 6 on a pass. I called it jeep bowling. If I was bored, I'd spend an evening with a sixpack just doing that and laughing my arse off.
I wish BF 1942 was a subscription model so that they would have kept it up and made the servers. Instead, the "buy it and we are done" model means it only lasts for a while, then the company is onto their next title, and the old one gets no maintenance, bug fixes, updates, etc.
True, but the BF series always got good long term support. Packed BF4 servers are still running today. That was a 2013 game.
At least with that model you only pay when there is a product in hand instead of endless monthly payments hoping that someday some wonderful development will occur. Now, If you are smart you will wait for reviews before handing over your money.
Or if you are an idiot like me you pre-paid for BF5. Stop laughing. And then did it again with BF2042. I said, stop laughing. That's my punishment for being an unthinking fanbois. And a slow learner apparently. ;)
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Animl-AW on October 01, 2023, 04:44:34 PM
I don't think anyone is saying it can't be done in the future. Again, Brooke's point is currently, in this universe, at this moment, right this second, there isn't another game that can support the way we run our events without drastically changing how they are run (to the point where they are no longer what we know as said event).
This.
The whole reason they only have scripted drone missions (AI).
Think of the expense to buy all those planes "This scenario has a plane I don't own, so I have to buy it to be part of it. BAM! $70" That's just nuts. Like it or not, others sims have limits that AH doesn't have. This is were subscription pays off.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on October 01, 2023, 04:53:46 PM
I believe IL2GB does it. With more players than AH Scenarios at the moment to boot. Their servers are coming close to FSO numbers.
They run coordinated "events" in Combat Box and FlugPark. I honestly can't tell you anything about them except they exist. But considering the options they have, IL2 definitely has everything they need to run scenarios, except maybe a registration page. They do everything through discord.
Many use Discord now for that stuff like DDCS (server) they can tie Discord accounts with DCS accounts. Some servers use that for roles permission validation and prevent spying on coalition chats, etc. So it is like how the event page ties to the forum account.
There are all kinds of plug-ins and bots you can write to utilize Discord for stuff. I'm going to delve into that at some point.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Spikes on October 04, 2023, 09:31:03 AM
I believe IL2GB does it. With more players than AH Scenarios at the moment to boot. Their servers are coming close to FSO numbers.
They run coordinated "events" in Combat Box and FlugPark. I honestly can't tell you anything about them except they exist. But considering the options they have, IL2 definitely has everything they need to run scenarios, except maybe a registration page. They do everything through discord.
It seems like IL2 would be pretty limited as to what events could be run. Seems like Eastern Front is pretty fleshed out, as well as some 9th AF Western Front action/Channel front action. No heavy bombers, so anything 8th AF or 15th AF is out. It looks like some events could be squeezed in around Italy. No Japanese or Blue planes, so anything Pacific is out.
Obviously I'm not faulting the game makers for that - but these are the types of reasons FSOs or Scenarios can't be ripped out 'as is' and placed in another game. For the way we offer events (wide variety of designs and planesets), AH offers the best and only way to run them currently.
Frankly, if I were to pick a game I'd port the events to War Thunder as the game has the planeset to support how we run the events. It also has the "realistic" mode which is much better than the arcade mode you see when you join random battles. The only thing missing (and of course, it's a big thing) is the ability to host servers/events like we do. Ability to set alt caps, have realistic maps, enable/disable flight, etc.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Brooke on October 04, 2023, 11:44:40 PM
I looked into Il-2 the other day.
There are some teams that run historical events in Il-2. I read their sites, not played in any of it, so not sure of exact details.
I think on Il-2, you need a different game or different pack for each location or plane set. For example, you get IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Kuban for $50 or whatever, and it is the Kuban with 8-10 plane types. You want something else, say Bodenplatte, that's a different one, another $50, another set of planes. Etc.
Even then, you are now doing a few Eastern Front battles, Bodenplatte, and Normandy for their current set of games. If you can get older games, you add a couple Channel Front and a North Africa, it seems. So, about 8 battle locations.
While Il-2 could do scenarios if they work that functionality into their product line, I doubt they are going to do that. Because they haven't done so yet in their 22 years of operation. And their stuff isn't a good fit for scenarios. It's too restricted in what you can set up.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Nefarious on October 05, 2023, 08:01:24 AM
It seems like IL2 would be pretty limited as to what events could be run. Seems like Eastern Front is pretty fleshed out, as well as some 9th AF Western Front action/Channel front action. No heavy bombers, so anything 8th AF or 15th AF is out. It looks like some events could be squeezed in around Italy. No Japanese or Blue planes, so anything Pacific is out.
Obviously I'm not faulting the game makers for that - but these are the types of reasons FSOs or Scenarios can't be ripped out 'as is' and placed in another game. For the way we offer events (wide variety of designs and planesets), AH offers the best and only way to run them currently.
Frankly, if I were to pick a game I'd port the events to War Thunder as the game has the planeset to support how we run the events. It also has the "realistic" mode which is much better than the arcade mode you see when you join random battles. The only thing missing (and of course, it's a big thing) is the ability to host servers/events like we do. Ability to set alt caps, have realistic maps, enable/disable flight, etc.
IL2 could have ran several of our scenarios over the last few years, possibly more with some fudging of the terrains (just moving physical locations West or East, with no real substitutions). I say that because Aces High terrains lack certain terrain features that really promote realism like IL2 does. IL2 may not have Paris or Berlin cities modeled, but in reality, neither do we. In AH, It's more of a scaled location with a generic game object to represent a city which for AH vets like ourselves suffices, not so much for others.
So in these cases, Yes, I believe IL2 could "rip out" scenarios like Velikye Luki, Battle for Paris, Road to Berlin, Cherkassy Pocket, Win the Winter Sky, etc.
In my opinion, Scenarios that are set in the Mediterranean and Pacific are a complete no-go for IL2, but from the data we have gathered in AH, isn't really a deal breaker, especially when it comes to Pacific. IL2 has the plane set to make a lot of Mediterranean Scenarios, just lacks a terrain(s).
So, I don't disagree that AH offers the variety that IL2 can't, I would argue that IL2 isn't far behind, or even in some cases, well past AH in the metrics that can be measured and compared. I have never played WT, but it does look more and more interesting honestly.
There are some teams that run historical events in Il-2. I read their sites, not played in any of it, so not sure of exact details.
I think on Il-2, you need a different game or different pack for each location or plane set. For example, you get IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Kuban for $50 or whatever, and it is the Kuban with 8-10 plane types. You want something else, say Bodenplatte, that's a different one, another $50, another set of planes. Etc.
Even then, you are now doing a few Eastern Front battles, Bodenplatte, and Normandy for their current set of games. If you can get older games, you add a couple Channel Front and a North Africa, it seems. So, about 8 battle locations.
While Il-2 could do scenarios if they work that functionality into their product line, I doubt they are going to do that. Because they haven't done so yet in their 22 years of operation. And their stuff isn't a good fit for scenarios. It's too restricted in what you can set up.
In IL2 you can play in any online server that isn't password protected without having the terrain - You just have to have one of the available aircraft to actually launch. For example, if I have the Fw 190A-5, I can fly in any server that has the Fw 190A-5 enabled, regardless of terrain or game ownership. When you exit the server, you lose access to that terrain offline.
Official Terrain list:
Arras 1918 Western Front 1918 Moscow 41-42 (2 seasons) Stalingrad 42-43 (3 seasons) Velikye Luki 43-43 Kuban 43 (2 seasons) Prokhorovka 43 (this is more of a GV map but aircraft can certainly be used) Normandy 44 (2 seasons) Rhienland 44-45 (4 seasons) Novosokolniki 42-43 (another GV map)
As far as costs go, that can be complex comparing the two. I own every IL2GB game - Moscow, Stalingrad, Kuban, Boddenplatte, Normandy, Tank Crew, and Flying Circus I, II, III as well as several of the individual collector aircraft and vehicles, as well as some of their scripted campaigns. Some I bought early access too, so I saved a little bit on the overall costs, others I bought in their annual sales they hold where stuff is typically 50% off.
I would say I have spent around $600 in total on the IL2GB series since 2016. Compared to Aces High, that's only about 3.5 years of your AH subscription. I will add, I am blessed to have the support of HT and the special events community to be a CM, but I have been here for 23 years. If you have been here longer than 3 and a half years then you will have invested more of your money or volunteer duties than you would have spent on IL2. And if you have only been here for 3.5 years you have seen zero new aircraft, and maybe only one revamped/remodeled existing aircraft.
Let us not forget, HT is not in the business of Scenarios or special events. That falls squarely on the volunteer player base. HT has never written or hosted a scenario like me or you. He only provides the canvas. Sure, he has made improvements and upgrades that make it easier for us and the players, but in the end scenarios don't come with Aces High without people like you and Spikes.
I'm not here to convince anyone that one is better than the others. I haven't flown either Aces High or IL2 in over 3 weeks, DCS even longer. I am at that point in my life that I have seen others, where they have too much going on in life with real life and family. I now know why others take these breaks or step away, I never really understood that until I had a child.
I like Aces High special events because of the community and camaraderie, it is where it's at. But that will change as it's not going to last forever, or even much longer, (sorry) and someone else will pick it up on some other venue.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on October 05, 2023, 08:18:46 AM
I'm not here to convince anyone that one is better than the others. I haven't flown either Aces High or IL2 in over 3 weeks, DCS even longer. I am at that point in my life that I have seen others, where they have too much going on in life with real life and family. I now know why others take these breaks or step away, I never really understood that until I had a child.
Well, when they hit 13 they won't want to have anything to do with you and you can get back into sim'ing. ;)
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I like Aces High special events because of the community and camaraderie, it is where it's at. But that will change as it's not going to last forever, or even much longer, (sorry) and someone else will pick it up on some other venue.
I agree. I know it is heresy... I like historical scenarios, but I have absolutely no problem with what-if scenarios either. I think being open to both frees the creativity of your designer and give you a much larger canvas. I think a position that a scenario can ONLY be a historical scenario is unnecessarily limiting and maybe a bit of an extremist view. If you don't shackle yourself to only historical scenarios then others sims have no limits. Do historical for what they support and make interesting what-if scenarios to fill the rest.
Like I said, I appreciate historical scenarios, but to me, IMHO, what I personally found compelling about scenarios is a organized, structured contest, with some semblance of command and clear measurable common goals for teams to compete for. A beginning, a middle, and an end. A complete storyline. It's sense of purpose and teamwork as opposed to wandering the Melee aimlessly picking your nose diddling something here or there and logging out before you ever see the end result because some Euro guys reset the map a 3am.
So for what I like that can be historical or not as long as I get that teamwork, structure, clearly defined goal where success is clearly defined and measured. One way or another there is a start and a end and you will know who is the winner and who is the loser. All the sims could put on scenarios like that.
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It's too restricted in what you can set up.
Is it more restricted than when Air Warrior started scenarios?
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Dadtallica on October 05, 2023, 08:33:48 AM
but in the end scenarios don't come with Aces High without people like you and Spikes.
In start-ups they call that an "Elevator Asset". Usual meaning is key personnel that form the major component of a company's valuation.
When evaluating the purchase of a start-up, what percentage of the targets estimated value is made up of "Elevator Assets" that can, at any time, walk out the door, get in the elevator and leave the building, taking the company's value with them; and what would have to be done to secure them?
Like when Hitech left Warbirds. Whatever real value the company had walked out with him. It just took Wild Bill a little time to realize that. :rofl
( Side not: Is WB completely dead now? Their forums have been down for weeks at least. )
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on October 05, 2023, 01:28:54 PM
In start-ups they call that an "Elevator Asset". Usual meaning is key personnel that form the major component of a company's valuation.
When evaluating the purchase of a start-up, what percentage of the targets estimated value is made up of "Elevator Assets" that can, at any time, walk out the door, get in the elevator and leave the building, taking the company's value with them; and what would have to be done to secure them?
Like when Hitech left Warbirds. Whatever real value the company had walked out with him. It just took Wild Bill a little time to realize that. :rofl
( Side note: Is WB completely dead now? Their forums have been down for weeks at least. )
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Brooke on October 05, 2023, 01:33:15 PM
I agree. I know it is heresy... I like historical scenarios, but I have absolutely no problem with what-if scenarios either.
There are some folks who don't like them. But I enjoy occasional "what if's" like Rangoon, Fjord Fury, The Final Battle, and Operation Downfall. There are also some that are historical battles, but significantly enhanced plane set to make it playable, like Rabaul, PP, and Leyte. Sort of a what if Japan had more of their later planes and not almost all Zeros. Some of those (Fjord Fury, Rabaul, Leyte) are among my favorite scenarios of all time.
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Is it more restricted than when Air Warrior started scenarios?
It is similar in scenario tools to 30 years ago in Air Warrior, but still more restricted in plane set and ships. Similar in that 30 years ago we didn't have lots of terrains and made due (as Nefarious talked about) back then. We did have scoring logs. We had a larger plane set, so could set up whatever matchups we wanted. We had land and sea targets.
Air Warrior rapidly added more and more tools for scenarios. I don't think scenarios occur to the Il-2 company. I don't think they think about that at all. And even if they did, some of the things that are highly useful in scenarios go contrary to their current business model (like restricted plane set that you pay money to expand). Or having to put resources into things not needed for their main business model, such as releasing an editor for players to create terrains, or implementing user-modifiable settings for radar, visibility, ack power, target hardness, fleet location, air spawns, etc.
Could they do it? Sure. Will they? Because they haven't done it already, I don't think it would be forthcoming.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Brooke on October 05, 2023, 02:39:54 PM
They do have a couple of groups that run historical events. Nefarious, have you played in any of them? I would love to know what they are like.
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with some fudging of the terrains
I do think that would work OK, as you say.
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In my opinion, Scenarios that are set in the Mediterranean and Pacific are a complete no-go for IL2
I wouldn't be surprised to see them put out at some point a release with that area as a focus.
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I would argue that IL2 isn't far behind
I see some barriers, though. A big one for me is plane set being very restricted compared to what AH has to work with. Also, possibly significant lack of settings to make things in the battle work best for playability or balance (ack, hardness, visibility, air spawn, radar settings, etc.).
When you fly bombers in Il-2, is it singletons, or do you get a couple drones like AH?
Also, in Il-2, do they have icons, or is it forced to be like AH with icons turned off?
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Nefarious on October 06, 2023, 05:40:40 AM
I wouldn't be surprised to see them put out at some point a release with that area as a focus.
I believe it has been confirmed that IL2GB will not be expanding into the Pacific, but I might guess that Italian terrains or other terrains aren't out of the realm of possibility.
I see some barriers, though. A big one for me is plane set being very restricted compared to what AH has to work with. Also, possibly significant lack of settings to make things in the battle work best for playability or balance (ack, hardness, visibility, air spawn, radar settings, etc.).
While it's missing a swath of aircraft from theaters that aren't represented to begin with, it makes up for those in Aircraft that Aces High doesn't have. For example, our (AH) stable of Eastern Front aircraft is missing key components from the early part of the GPW. We have an I-16 and the next available aircraft is the Yak-7B. IL-2 has a lot of those key aircraft that we do not. Of course, their main focus in two of their releases is early war Eastern Front. So they have the MiG and Lagg series that we lack, along with the Pe-2.
I have never looked at their server settings, so I am unaware of hardness and ack settings, and not really sure how their visibility settings work, but their weather system includes a multitude of meteorological conditions that we lack. Some servers utilize air spawns so they do exist and radar settings seem to vary amongst the top populated servers, so they have the ability to manipulated too.
Also, in Il-2, do they have icons, or is it forced to be like AH with icons turned off?
Yes, they have several different icon settings. One of my key gripes about IL2 is that the two most populated servers use no icons. This overall isn't terrible, but nothing is worse than getting smoked by a friendly. It has it's moments, but overall I prefer icons.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on October 06, 2023, 08:56:08 AM
This overall isn't terrible, but nothing is worse than getting smoked by a friendly.
LoL. I could understand that in DCS with missiles, but you would think if you were close enough for a gun kill you should be able to tell what you are shooting at.
I bet those were your exact thoughts. ;)
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Nefarious on October 06, 2023, 09:22:47 AM
LoL. I could understand that in DCS with missiles, but you would think if you were close enough for a gun kill you should be able to tell what you are shooting at.
I bet those were your exact thoughts. ;)
I would up P-38s because I knew it couldn't be mistaken for anything else. lol. They've made some changes to how "dots" are rendered which helped, along with higher res VR sets make it easier to distinguish friend from foe.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Brooke on October 06, 2023, 12:35:10 PM
they have the MiG and Lagg series that we lack, along with the Pe-2.
I like that. Although in AH these days, we wouldn't be able to fill MiG's or LaGG's. These days, to get participation, we seem restricted to mid-late war. Alas.
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their weather system includes a multitude of meteorological conditions that we lack. Some servers utilize air spawns so they do exist and radar settings seem to vary amongst the top populated servers, so they have the ability to manipulated too.
Good info.
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Singletons.
Drat. The trios make a huge positive difference on fun of flying level bombers in scenarios.
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Yes, they have several different icon settings.
That's good.
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One of my key gripes about IL2 is that the two most populated servers use no icons. This overall isn't terrible, but nothing is worse than getting smoked by a friendly. It has it's moments, but overall I prefer icons.
Me, too.
Naive folks think no icons are more realistic. But the human eye has far higher ability to notice and resolve things than modern computer screens can provide.
If not obscured in cloud, it is not hard to keep sight of an aircraft, even one with camo paint, in normal prop-plane dogfight ranges (1000 yards and less, say). For example, I went to Air Combat USA once, and had zero problems keeping sight of any aircraft. That was with camo paint on planes and a brown, varied, mottled terrain that the camo would be perfect for. Your eye/brain picks up motion; the colors aren't exact matches; your fovea has gigantic resolution. It was zero problem.
I think it is *more* realistic to have icons on planes in flight sims so that you aren't losing track of planes that you'd have no trouble keeping track of in real life.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Devil 505 on October 06, 2023, 12:47:31 PM
LoL. I could understand that in DCS with missiles, but you would think if you were close enough for a gun kill you should be able to tell what you are shooting at.
I bet those were your exact thoughts. ;)
You'd be amazed how similar a P-40 looks to a 109 from the high 6 position. I stopped using green painted 109's because of it. Been on both ends of this specific mistake.
Another example is the similarity in horizontal silhouette between the C.202 is to the MiG-3. It's that confusion that inspired me to use the C.205, sans cannon, as a MiG-3 sub in some FSO designs.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: Animl-AW on October 07, 2023, 10:35:58 PM
I like that. Although in AH these days, we wouldn't be able to fill MiG's or LaGG's. These days, to get participation, we seem restricted to mid-late war. Alas.
Good info.
Drat. The trios make a huge positive difference on fun of flying level bombers in scenarios.
That's good.
Me, too.
Naive folks think no icons are more realistic. But the human eye has far higher ability to notice and resolve things than modern computer screens can provide.
If not obscured in cloud, it is not hard to keep sight of an aircraft, even one with camo paint, in normal prop-plane dogfight ranges (1000 yards and less, say). For example, I went to Air Combat USA once, and had zero problems keeping sight of any aircraft. That was with camo paint on planes and a brown, varied, mottled terrain that the camo would be perfect for. Your eye/brain picks up motion; the colors aren't exact matches; your fovea has gigantic resolution. It was zero problem.
I think it is *more* realistic to have icons on planes in flight sims so that you aren't losing track of planes that you'd have no trouble keeping track of in real life.
I just don’t like icons in videos intended to be realistic, like a movie , otherwise they are a must.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: CptTrips on November 02, 2023, 02:27:21 PM
Enigma just asked for HT's contact info. I'd love to hear that interview. Fingers crossed.
That would get HTC a large bump in exposure. His views range from 4k to 100k for a video.
Title: Re: Combat Pilot
Post by: oboe on November 02, 2023, 03:27:33 PM