Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Banshee7 on October 12, 2023, 11:41:56 AM
-
I am posting this here because I know you skinners and lyric1 can probably help me out the most.
I am in search of any resources you might have about the 451st BG. I have googled and found a few things, but I know y'all might have access or know about wayyyy more stuff.
The reasoning is my hometown was a bomber training base during the war. My whole life I was taught that it was strictly a B-17 training base where crews learned how to fly in box formations. Turns out, the only operational unit to come to the base and train as a unit was the 451st in B-24s. Therefore, I would love to learn more about them. I am going to continue my search, but if you know of any places I should try looking, please recommend them.
Oh, and if any of you find an interesting Liberator to skin, I would definitely fly it :)
Thank y'all so much!
Edit: A lot of my information has been coming from this site. I sometimes question sites like this, but so far it looks legit. https://www.451st.org/default.html
-
The site looks legit to me, Banshee. So cool isn't it, when you find a local connection to WWII air war history.
-
The site looks legit to me, Banshee. So cool isn't it, when you find a local connection to WWII air war history.
I blame the base and annual air shows for my love of WW2 aviation. I have grown up loving B17s only to find out that I can also love B24s :rofl. One of these days I will be the curator of the museum we have on the base. What's really sad is the lack of funding the town gives the museum.
-
Several photos in this link.
https://www.americanairmuseum.com/archive/unit/451st-bomb-group
-
Looking through the above links and some other sources the best bet for a 451st BG skin seems to be a 724th BS aircraft named "Minnesota Mauler". This has half a dozen photos showing both sides of the complete aircraft as well as a close up of the LH side nose art, the RH side art being the same thing as the LH side. Also its a fairly colourful scheme; NMF with yellow tail codes and nose art writing, white squadron numbers on black squares and white cowl rims. I'll make a start on it once I have finished my current skin.
-
Being a Minnesota boy, I was curious about this one Greebo - but didn't find any profiles with yellow trim - just red:
(https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/1/minnesota-mauler-and-the-tuskegee-airmen-oil-tommy-anderson.jpg)
(https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/3/minnesota-mauler-profile-art-tommy-anderson.jpg)
I also found some confusing/contradicting info in an operations order from the 451st BG itself, for a mission on 1 Jul 44:
https://www.451st.org/Missions/Mission%20Flimsies/July%201944/44%20Jul%20Flimsies.pdf (https://www.451st.org/Missions/Mission%20Flimsies/July%201944/44%20Jul%20Flimsies.pdf)
This document lists SQUADRON COLORS as follows:
724th - White. 725th - Red. 726th - Green. 727th - Yellow
The colors in this order may not refer to aircraft trim color, however - could be a reference to flare color for starting the take off roll, or something else altogether?
Also found this reference, where the color of the painted name definitely suggests something lighter than red:
(http://www.b24bestweb.com/images/B24/MINNESOTAMAULER4.JPG)
http://www.b24bestweb.com/minnesotamauler4.htm (http://www.b24bestweb.com/minnesotamauler4.htm)
Lastly, I found this squadron color reference, which DOES list the 724th's squad color as Yellow (scroll way down):
https://www.worldwarphotos.info/usaaf-codes/ (https://www.worldwarphotos.info/usaaf-codes/)
-
I have seen the red tail markings on another profile too but I don't think it is correct. Artists often copy other artists when doing their research so it is not unusual to find several profiles/paintings/decal sheets etc all with the same error. Apart from also seeing it in that squadron reference my reasons for thinking the colour is yellow are as follows:-
Photo 1 linked below shows the nose art painted in a shade that is lighter than the red-painted extinguisher hatch below it. in photo 2 the nose art colour appears to be the same shade as the tail colour. While you could make a case for yellow or red as the colour in photo 2 it definitely is not white, the cowl rims probably are though. I think Photo 3 shows the tail art is too light a shade to be red.
Photo 1 (http://www.b24bestweb.com/minnesotamauler4.htm)
Photo 2 (http://www.b24bestweb.com/minnesotamauler1.htm)
Photo 3 (http://www.b24bestweb.com/minnesotamauler6.htm)
-
Looking through the above links and some other sources the best bet for a 451st BG skin seems to be a 724th BS aircraft named "Minnesota Mauler". This has half a dozen photos showing both sides of the complete aircraft as well as a close up of the LH side nose art, the RH side art being the same thing as the LH side. Also its a fairly colourful scheme; NMF with yellow tail codes and nose art writing, white squadron numbers on black squares and white cowl rims. I'll make a start on it once I have finished my current skin.
That would be awesome, Greebo! I look forward to seeing it!
I've been reading a little more, and it appears that only the ground echelon of the group spent much time here. I have reached out to them requesting more information mainly out of curiosity. I will always love B-17s, as it was the primary plane stationed here, but this has really sparked my interest and prompted me to research!
-
I have seen the red tail markings on another profile too but I don't think it is correct. Artists often copy other artists when doing their research so it is not unusual to find several profiles/paintings/decal sheets etc all with the same error. Apart from also seeing it in that squadron reference my reasons for thinking the colour is yellow are as follows:-
Photo 1 linked below shows the nose art painted in a shade that is lighter than the red-painted extinguisher hatch below it. in photo 2 the nose art colour appears to be the same shade as the tail colour. While you could make a case for yellow or red as the colour in photo 2 it definitely is not white, the cowl rims probably are though. I think Photo 3 shows the tail art is too light a shade to be red.
Photo 1 (http://www.b24bestweb.com/minnesotamauler4.htm)
Photo 2 (http://www.b24bestweb.com/minnesotamauler1.htm)
Photo 3 (http://www.b24bestweb.com/minnesotamauler6.htm)
I agree with your conclusions, Greebo. While initial research results returned color images with red trim, it doesn't hold up under further scrutiny. I guess research isn't always a strength for many artists...
-
(https://i.imgur.com/EHzac3bh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/kzTboJFh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6yoOZ0ih.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1tH3Gr9h.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/pfEqhyPh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ttIKlbDh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IG5GBwNh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/tMDxMH3h.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/aqsKiuRh.jpg)
-
Thanks for the photos Lyric1, from what they show I may have to have a rethink on my interpretation of Minnesota Mauler. The last photo shows that the cowl rims and the number or number square colours were used as squadron identifiers. So if the cowl rims and numbers are yellow (or white) on Mauler, then presumably the darker shaded tail and nose art were indeed red as per the profiles etc. This would mean that all 451st BG NMF aircraft had red tails and that the very pale appearance of the tail colour on some black and white photos was down to fading, some sort of artefact of the film used, or a trick of the light. This doesn't seem likely to me though, some aircraft have tail colours that are much lighter than the NMF.
Unfortunately both the colour photos show aircraft 59 and 61 which not only had red tails but red number surrounds and cowl rims. What is needed is a photo that clearly shows a red tail with different colour cowl rims and numbers. The third aircraft in line on the last photo shows the number 62 on the nose in a green square and with green cowl rims, so it seems that by this time the number used did not denote the squadron.
All in all, it is a bit confusing.
-
Horse's Itch has red and yellow checkers that turned white on film.
-
Very interesting. Awesome finds, Lyric! In the first photo posted by Lyric, the nose art "Minnesota Mauler" looks to have a faint, light outline inside the dark outline. It's possible the text could be dark red on yellow, outlined in black.
-
Thanks for the photos Lyric1, from what they show I may have to have a rethink on my interpretation of Minnesota Mauler. The last photo shows that the cowl rims and the number or number square colours were used as squadron identifiers. So if the cowl rims and numbers are yellow (or white) on Mauler, then presumably the darker shaded tail and nose art were indeed red as per the profiles etc. This would mean that all 451st BG NMF aircraft had red tails and that the very pale appearance of the tail colour on some black and white photos was down to fading, some sort of artefact of the film used, or a trick of the light. This doesn't seem likely to me though, some aircraft have tail colours that are much lighter than the NMF.
Unfortunately both the colour photos show aircraft 59 and 61 which not only had red tails but red number surrounds and cowl rims. What is needed is a photo that clearly shows a red tail with different colour cowl rims and numbers. The third aircraft in line on the last photo shows the number 62 on the nose in a green square and with green cowl rims, so it seems that by this time the number used did not denote the squadron.
All in all, it is a bit confusing.
Number 59 its a red panel on the front number if you zoom it up bigger the back number is a green surround panel. That makes it even more confusing maybe a book on this group maybe in order. I will see whats out there.
Edit. Red right side both panels.
(https://i.imgur.com/PP1VcYKh.jpg)
Left red front green rear. :headscratch:
(https://i.imgur.com/7lRVuKoh.jpg)
-
Looking at various photos I am pretty sure now the squadron colours were as per Oboe's document; 724th - White, 725th - Red, 726th - Green, 727th - Yellow. So Mauler had white cowl rims and white numbers on black squares.
The question now is what colour were the tail markings given that some photos show it in a light shade and some a mid shade? I am wondering if at first all the group tail codes were painted white to provide a contrast with olive drab paint and then once most of their planes were NMF the group changed to a red tail code to contrast with the metal. That might explain while in some photos the tail codes look dark and on others they look light on NMF aircraft.
That is weird on 59 Lyric1, perhaps they ran out of red paint? :)
Nice spot on the light line on the nose art text Oboe. Not sure is the skin resolution will support it for the skin though.
-
From the 451st site.
The nose art text clearly started out as a lighter colour and was changed at some point.
https://www.451st.org/Aircraft/images/Dave%20Evans/451_BG_42-50906.pdf
This image is the only one I have found so far showing the nose art on the opposite side as well.
http://www.b24bestweb.com/minnesotamauler5.htm
-
Ordered a copy of this should be here in a few days.
https://www.amazon.com/451st-Bomb-Group-World-War/dp/0764312871/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1541352384&sr=1-1&keywords=451st+bomb+group+a+pictorial+history&dpID=51RjK1B7n%252BL&preST=_SX218_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch
-
Ordered a copy of this should be here in a few days.
https://www.amazon.com/451st-Bomb-Group-World-War/dp/0764312871/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1541352384&sr=1-1&keywords=451st+bomb+group+a+pictorial+history&dpID=51RjK1B7n%252BL&preST=_SX218_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch
Talk about dedication!
-
Talk about dedication!
You have no idea...
-
Lyric is in a league all his own.
:salute Lyric1
-
Lyric1 is an fantastic researcher and a real asset to this community. While some of us skinners have good knowledge of a few specific aircraft he is able to dig up obscure stuff on aircraft and vehicles from every participating nation.
-
I've started work on "Minnesota Mauler" so have been studying the available photos more closely and have come to some conclusions about the scheme:-
I suspect that both the nose art close up photos were taken at around the same time during the process of it being painted as neither of them show the large number 19 and all the group's NMF aircraft had these. The upper in-flight photo shows a similar mission tally to the lower nose art photo so it seems the large "19"s were painted on immediately after the second nose art photo was taken. These photos also show the lower nose below and behind the turret was painted white.
The second two in-flight photos were probably taken at a later date to the first one, as the stencil lines in the "19"s have been painted out. I'll skin it as per the upper photo though, as the mission tally is known.
I think Vraciu's suggestion about the red being over-exposed in the lower in-flight photo is likely correct. Looking carefully at this photo it is possible to see a reversal of the tone of tail markings between the in-shadow area just aft of the hinge line and the rest of the stab which is in sunlight. So in the shaded area the painted bits are darker than the NMF while in the lit areas this is reversed. Also the exhaust dirt on the top of the wings appears light in this photo while it is dark on the upper photo. Oil stains generally have a reddish tint so the same issue might be at play here. A less-likely alternative is lead in the fuel staining those areas white. So probably the tail codes were indeed red on 451st BG aircraft at this stage of the war.
I can't see any letter "J" on the rudders in these photos. While most photos of similar aircraft show a letter here there are a few that don't so I will leave these off.
I have a reference that shows the upper tail of 451st BG aircraft also carried tail codes, with the RH tail painted over and with a red circle on the LH tail. None of the B&W photos of NMF aircraft show these codes, but this may be down to the same issue of over-exposure of red hiding it. There is one photo of an OD aircraft called "Burma Bound" that shows these codes painted in white. The colour photo of aircraft "61" shows a red upper tail plane, but oddly this is the LH one and not the right. Hopefully Lyric1's new book will shed some more light on the tail codes of the group.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=399666.0;attach=36977)
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=399666.0;attach=36975)
-
Looking forward to seeing it, Greebo! Thank you so much for your work! I have enjoyed reading what y'all analyze these photos!
-
That is weird on 59 Lyric1, perhaps they ran out of red paint? :)
I think they did on #56 based off this image.
No tail markings at all?
(https://i.imgur.com/dwY1Gszh.jpg)
https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/b24/b-24j-42-78595/
-
Thanks for the kind words guys.
Book arrived tons of photos as well as group markings firstly the plane in question some images we don't have.
(https://i.imgur.com/N78TiGVh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CnLIRegh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/k2O9VwWh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eKuF0LOh.jpg)
This aircraft is a later replacement with the #19 as well. The #21 text I think was a typo in the book. The image I think shows the red painted horizontal upper tail surfaces best of any of the photos I have seen.
(https://i.imgur.com/0bf6kckh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bM59OeHh.jpg)
This plane is about the only one that jumped out to me in the book plus found some Facebook images of it as a possible alternative to #19.
"The Bad Penny"
#49
Lots of photos in the SCRIBD link for the 451st.
https://www.scribd.com/document/672188173/Schiffer-Military-History-B-24-Liberators-of-the-15th-Air-Force-49th-Bomb-Wing-in-WWII
http://hey_moe.tripod.com/page5.html
(https://i.imgur.com/4EwG15Lh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zxSPA8Kh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Sq2Rgluh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ObK6YEXh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hUONUSmh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6yxEZlqh.jpg)
Group markings.
300 B-24's served with the group. :aok
(https://i.imgur.com/K2C8GHoh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Ar44e2Oh.jpg)
-
It's not exactly overexposure. Certain types of film used during WW2 depicted some dark colors like red as white. There is a site explaining this but I'm unable to find it. I hope I have a screenshot of it at home. Panchromatic film is the culprit of I recall. Merle Olmstead was a crew chief with the 357th and their group historian. He explained why this color shift occurs.
Here are two examples of a red and yellow checker nose coming out almost the exact same color as the white markings on the same aircraft.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=408227.0;attach=36979)
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=408227.0;attach=36981)
Some depictions of the lower photo show less of a contrast than this one. I've zoomed and cropped it.
I'm also starting to believe that the nose art lettering on this Mustang is YELLOW not white based on this second image.
-
Here's another cropped image. These nose are the red and yellow of the 357th FG.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=408227.0;attach=36983)
-
Thanks for making me aware of this Vraciu, I'll keep an eye out for the issue in future. I was aware that orthochromatic film caused red-shifted colours to appear too dark but not that panchromatic film made them appear too light. In all the 451st BG photos I can now see that where the red is brightly lit it appears lighter than the NMF but where it is in shadow it appears darker, but still too light.
The unit markings info from the book Lyric1 kindly bought clears up pretty much all the remaining questions I had on the scheme. The only thing I would take issue with is where it says the LH horizontal stab was red and the circle was on the RH stab. The photo I have of "Burma Bound" taken close up from above shows it was the other way round so I will go with that for the skin. I could skin the post-September scheme with the whole stab in red as one of the new photos from the book does show Mauler painted this way, but I think I'll stick with the earlier version.
-
(https://i.imgur.com/zxSPA8Kh.jpg)
Originally, I was going to suggest skinning Bad Penny...for obvious reasons of course :devil
-
Originally, I was going to suggest skinning Bad Penny...for obvious reasons of course :devil
I don't that'd be a hard sell for Greebo... ;)
-
I don't that'd be a hard sell for Greebo... ;)
Have to agree #19 “M M” has the most images of any in the group and has nose art both sides. From all the dealings with Greebo over the years these usually are the ones he likes most.
-
Have to agree #19 “M M” has the most images of any in the group and has nose art both sides. From all the dealings with Greebo over the years these usually are the ones he likes most.
Doh! I botched typing my reply. I meant Greebo has said before he likes to see a little 'skin' in his skins, so "Bad Penny" wouldn't be a tough sell to get him interested...
-
Doh! I botched typing my reply. I meant Greebo has said before he likes to see a little 'skin' in his skins, so "Bad Penny" wouldn't be a tough sell to get him interested...
I find it interesting that the pinup on "Bad Penny" is so similar to the pinup on the P-40N "Mary Lou" that I skinned a couple of months ago. Must be based on the same source artwork.
-
They are pretty similar:
(https://i.imgur.com/Sq2Rgluh.jpg)
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/skins/stream.php?floc=1&sfile=reference1img.jpg&stype=1&pindex=p40n_18)
-
That happened with my Mustang, "PIN UP GIRL" as well. The same Vargas girls [in particular] were used on multiple aircraft for example.
-
Unfortunately I'm too far in to "Minnesota Mauler" now to switch to "The Bad Penny". As Lyric1 says the main reason I didn't pick it to start with is the lack of a photo of the LH nose, there could be more nose art and/or a score board painted there. If a photo of that area turns up I may skin it in future.
I have also skinned similar nose art to "Penny" at least twice before, once on an USMC F6F and once quite recently on a USN B-24. This despite the expense of hiring a live model each time..... :)
-
Unfortunately I'm too far in to "Minnesota Mauler" now to switch to "The Bad Penny". As Lyric1 says the main reason I didn't pick it to start with is the lack of a photo of the LH nose, there could be more nose art and/or a score board painted there. If a photo of that area turns up I may skin it in future.
I have also skinned similar nose art to "Penny" at least twice before, once on an USMC F6F and once quite recently on a USN B-24. This despite the expense of hiring a live model each time..... :)
:devil
-
I have also skinned similar nose art to "Penny" at least twice before, once on an USMC F6F and once quite recently on a USN B-24. This despite the expense of hiring a live model each time..... :)
:rofl
-
🤣
-
Well here is the skin. Thanks to Lyric1 for finding the info, plus Oboe and Vraciu for their help in interpreting the photos. The scheme is shown in as it appeared in its first few sorties, with minimal weathering and fading of the paint.
"Minnesota Mauler" was a B-24J of the 451st Bomb Group's 724th Bomb Squadron and was flown by several of its crews from late July 1944 until a crash landing at Zara in Yugoslavia in March 1945. It was painted with the group's red tail codes and the squadron's white nose, cowl rims and numbers. Other squadrons in the group used red, green or yellow markings.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=408227.0;attach=36997)
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=408227.0;attach=36999)
-
:aok
-
Looks awesome. Nice work.
-
:aok
I'm trying to fight against it, but I definitely feel a little swell of hometown pride seeing "Minnesota" emblazoned on the nose.
Go get 'em, Girl! Ski-U-Mah!!
-
Awesome work as always, Greebo! Thank you for skinning this bomber! I can't wait to use it in the MA!